What to Do, What to Do?

bakahump

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Trade Kemba and get some Payroll flexibility (HA!) and a better fit with the Js.- Probably not gonna Happen as Kemba is to Too expensive and too worrisome for any team to take him on without significant resources being stapled to him on the way out.
Fire Brad- A decent enough move to shake things up (though I am personally against it), but replace him with who? Are the Js onboard with a replacement, cause we are getting/have gotten to the point where their opinion matters. Do they think he is a part of the problem or solution?
Use the TPE/portion of the TPE/Smaller exception for reinforcements- Who can we get thats gonna be a difference maker. With Difference make meaning a 5th or 6th best player on this team. Debate rages whether a 5th 6th best player on this team will have enough of a cascade effect to solve (enough of) the issues.
Wait for Smart- This will help and should be a good gauge of where we REALLY are. If its significant improvement....who knew he was that integral. The real Straw that stirs?
Give Nesmith/player x more run- Short term will be worse performance on the floor. Best case they develop something helpful for the playoffs.


What else can we realistically do?
 

NomarsFool

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Trading Kemba now I think is (hopefully) selling low. You'd think, at a minimum, there's a role for him as someone who can come off the bench and put up 15-18 points a game with shooting. That's obviously not a good spend for your max player - but if he is managed appropriately for the rest of this season he can hopefully add some value (it's not like the Celtics have too much scoring). Then, in the offseason, there's a chance that one of the teams that freed up cap space and doesn't really sign anyone would be interested in the last two years of Kemba's contract. Maybe it wouldn't even cost us to trade him.
 

BigSoxFan

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Trading Kemba now I think is (hopefully) selling low. You'd think, at a minimum, there's a role for him as someone who can come off the bench and put up 15-18 points a game with shooting. That's obviously not a good spend for your max player - but if he is managed appropriately for the rest of this season he can hopefully add some value (it's not like the Celtics have too much scoring). Then, in the offseason, there's a chance that one of the teams that freed up cap space and doesn't really sign anyone would be interested in the last two years of Kemba's contract. Maybe it wouldn't even cost us to trade him.
I don't necessarily think it would be selling low unless you think the prognosis is going to materially change in his age 32 and 33 seasons. Realistically, the Celtics aren't going to mess with their lineup that much and there aren't many, if any, landing spots right now anyways. Makes sense to see how he finishes the year and re-evaluate in the summer when you're also probably trying to figure out what to use the TPE on (my hunch is we don't see a major usage of it pre-deadline). I think he either gets exchanged for a similarly bad (or worse) deal or we're attaching a young guy and a pick to move him.

I remain quite bearish on Kemba but am hoping for the best.
 

Imbricus

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Yeah, they're going to go through crappy stretches. That Washington game was probably a season low -- Tatum looked like he had checked out of the building mentally before the opening tip.

But even if they look like crap in their next two games too, I wouldn't necessarily be looking at making moves. Tatum is 22, Brown is 24. They'll just need some decent complementary pieces. Danny has a few years to figure that out (and watch some of the kids develop). Worst-case scenario, Kemba's a bad contract that they have to live with, until it rolls off the books in a couple of years.

Personally, I think Pritchard will work better with the Jays than Kemba anyway. And maybe Nesmith finds his shot? And Langford develops one?
 

TripleOT

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Two of JT, JB, and Kemba should be on the court at all time. They won’t do it, but moving Kemba to sixth man, starting Pritchard, with Smart and s big is probably the way to go, assuming Kemba can’t get back to his previous high level of play.
 

The Mort Report

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I also think the stories today about Tatum still dealing with COVID symptoms, how his shooting percentage is 4.7% less overall and 7.3% less on threes since coming back, is hurting the team more than anything during this poor stretch. He said he was having a hard time catching his breath sometimes, and that will absolutely effect him on both of ends, and since he is an anchor of the defense it explains some of those issues. If he’s closing out a half second slower it’s a huge difference. I’m waiting til they are all healthy, because we’ve yet to see this team at full strength
 

NomarsFool

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I don't necessarily think it would be selling low unless you think the prognosis is going to materially change in his age 32 and 33 seasons.
Well, he just had a couple of his likely worst games of his career, shortly after coming back from injury. Just by being able to play 25 minutes a game for the next month or two would improve his trade value from what it is currently, I'd think.

The other challenge is that other GMs can smell the blood in the water. Ainge may certainly not be desperate - he seems to have excellent job security - but other GMs may think (hope) he's desperate and try and play hardball right now.
 

Pilgrim

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There were some Drummond to the Celtics rumors today. I realize most people around here hate this, and thinks Drummond sucks, but what if they are after his giant expiring contract rather than the player himself?

Drummond has enough reputation around the league that you could swap Kemba for him and not seem like you were waving the white flag. Obviously you would have to attach assets, but you would get a ton of salary room back this offseason. The goal would be to also trade for trade-cheap RFAs like Ball/Markennen/Collins and be able to sign them when you clear salary space his year, and then build around those players.

Is this anything?
 

BigSoxFan

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There were some Drummond to the Celtics rumors today. I realize most people around here hate this, and thinks Drummond sucks, but what if they are after his giant expiring contract rather than the player himself?

Drummond has enough reputation around the league that you could swap Kemba for him and not seem like you were waving the white flag. Obviously you would have to attach assets, but you would get a ton of salary room back this offseason. The goal would be to also trade for trade-cheap RFAs like Ball/Markennen/Collins and be able to sign them when you clear salary space his year, and then build around those players.

Is this anything?
I would put this in the “highly unlikely” or “zero chance” bucket. Also not familiar with this site. Are they reputable at all?
 

Pilgrim

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Im sure the site is complete crap- Its the only blog who put down in writing a twitter trade rumor thats been going around today. I probably should have just left it out and referenced the trade rumor as being from my own ass. The fact that Drummond will be moved is certainly true, though.
 

lovegtm

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There were some Drummond to the Celtics rumors today. I realize most people around here hate this, and thinks Drummond sucks, but what if they are after his giant expiring contract rather than the player himself?

Drummond has enough reputation around the league that you could swap Kemba for him and not seem like you were waving the white flag. Obviously you would have to attach assets, but you would get a ton of salary room back this offseason. The goal would be to also trade for trade-cheap RFAs like Ball/Markennen/Collins and be able to sign them when you clear salary space his year, and then build around those players.

Is this anything?
If Cleveland were willing to do Drummond for Kemba without assets attached, the Celtics would likely be all over it, because of the salary flexibility you mention. I just don't see what's in it for Cleveland, especially since their future is guards.
 

lovegtm

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Trade Kemba and get some Payroll flexibility (HA!) and a better fit with the Js.- Probably not gonna Happen as Kemba is to Too expensive and too worrisome for any team to take him on without significant resources being stapled to him on the way out.
Fire Brad- A decent enough move to shake things up (though I am personally against it), but replace him with who? Are the Js onboard with a replacement, cause we are getting/have gotten to the point where their opinion matters. Do they think he is a part of the problem or solution?
Use the TPE/portion of the TPE/Smaller exception for reinforcements- Who can we get thats gonna be a difference maker. With Difference make meaning a 5th or 6th best player on this team. Debate rages whether a 5th 6th best player on this team will have enough of a cascade effect to solve (enough of) the issues.
Wait for Smart- This will help and should be a good gauge of where we REALLY are. If its significant improvement....who knew he was that integral. The real Straw that stirs?
Give Nesmith/player x more run- Short term will be worse performance on the floor. Best case they develop something helpful for the playoffs.


What else can we realistically do?
Firing Brad to "shake things up" is lol.
 

BigSoxFan

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If Cleveland were willing to do Drummond for Kemba without assets attached, the Celtics would likely be all over it, because of the salary flexibility you mention. I just don't see what's in it for Cleveland, especially since their future is guards.
I think it would have to be a 3 team deal where Kemba goes to that 3rd team, Drummond goes to Boston, and additional assets, mostly from Boston, go to Cleveland along with expirings/short-term contracts from the 3rd team.

Only real option I see mid season is Utah if Conley were to suffer a season ending injury before the trade deadline. If that were to happen, Utah might be desperate enough to gamble on Kemba’s last 2 years in order to maintain their scoring in a year where they’re a legit contender.
 

lovegtm

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In terms of Kemba, I'd trade him only if it's for major salary relief that lets you spend both by giving up assets for a young RFA, and then using the TPE for a role player or two.

If you can't do that, and it's something like Kemba for Horford, you're saving a bit of money, but at the cost of offensive fit. Kemba isn't Kemba!, but they're already finding ways to use him in 2-man games with Brown and Tatum, as well as getting him off-ball. You would lose a lot by getting rid of that for, say, a center.
 

benhogan

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In terms of Kemba, I'd trade him only if it's for major salary relief that lets you spend both by giving up assets for a young RFA, and then using the TPE for a role player or two.

If you can't do that, and it's something like Kemba for Horford, you're saving a bit of money, but at the cost of offensive fit. Kemba isn't Kemba!, but they're already finding ways to use him in 2-man games with Brown and Tatum, as well as getting him off-ball. You would lose a lot by getting rid of that for, say, a center.
Hopefully, Kemba can keep playing like this over the next month. Then try to move him for expirings. If not, some hard decisions will need to be made (probably not until the Summer)

While swapping Kemba for Al feels lateral, we all know that Kemba will get relentlessly hunted in the postseason. I hate the idea of spending $$$ on the 5. Injecting Al and ejecting Tristan (send him elsewhere) would be an offensive & defensive upgrade over the next 2 seasons in Brad's system. TT just clogs the paint on offense. Defensively, he challenges nobody at the rim, guys go right over him.

Good grief, Danny has really whiffed in free agency the last 2 seasons: Kemba!, Kanter (had to tag a 1st there), TT, Teague (cheap but no effort).

and I don't want to hear that nobody could have foreseen the Kemba situation. Charlotte flat out schooled Danny & Co on avoiding Kemba's MAX deal for Rozier (which many of us scoffed at $17MM/yr, including myself :oops: ). Then plucked Gordon for $$$

The Kyrie effect bent this team over 6 different ways
 
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lexrageorge

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Hopefully, Kemba can keep playing like this over the next month. Then try to move him for expirings. If not, some hard decisions will need to be made (probably not until the Summer)

While swapping Kemba for Al feels lateral, we all know that Kemba will get relentlessly hunted in the postseason. I hate the idea of spending $$$ on the 5. Injecting Al and ejecting Tristan (send him elsewhere) would be an offensive & defensive upgrade over the next 2 seasons in Brad's system. TT just clogs the paint on offense. Defensively, he challenges nobody at the rim, guys go right over him.

Good grief, Danny has really whiffed in free agency the last 2 seasons: Kemba!, Kanter (had to tag a 1st there), TT, Teague (cheap but no effort).

and I don't want to hear that nobody could have foreseen the Kemba situation. Charlotte flat out schooled Danny & Co on avoiding Kemba's MAX deal for Rozier (which many of us scoffed at $17MM/yr, including myself :oops: ). Then plucked Gordon for $$$

The Kyrie effect bent this team over 6 different ways
Fair or not, the Kemba signing is one of those moves over which fans, and owners, will judge a GM. Only idiots blame Ainge for the Hayward signing, but Ainge did have alternatives when it came to signing Walker. I will, however, be "that guy" and quibble over a couple of points:

1.) Rozier is not much better defensively in the playoffs than Kemba, if at all.

2.) Charlotte declined to offer the supermax to Kemba, but was willing to offer more than the Celtics, who could only offer the max.

Throwing away assets to trade Kemba still makes zero sense, and Ainge is not going to do that, so we should stop expecting him to do so. But Kemba for Al could be one of those moves that does indeed help the team next year and beyond, which is really Ainge's focus, as they cannot compete with the Nets this season anyway.
 

lovegtm

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Fair or not, the Kemba signing is one of those moves over which fans, and owners, will judge a GM. Only idiots blame Ainge for the Hayward signing, but Ainge did have alternatives when it came to signing Walker. I will, however, be "that guy" and quibble over a couple of points:

1.) Rozier is not much better defensively in the playoffs than Kemba, if at all.

2.) Charlotte declined to offer the supermax to Kemba, but was willing to offer more than the Celtics, who could only offer the max.

Throwing away assets to trade Kemba still makes zero sense, and Ainge is not going to do that, so we should stop expecting him to do so. But Kemba for Al could be one of those moves that does indeed help the team next year and beyond, which is really Ainge's focus, as they cannot compete with the Nets this season anyway.
I’m extremely skeptical of “can’t compete with the Nets this season.”

They definitely can’t compete with the Nets if the Nets stay healthy, Tatum/Brown don’t improve, and the Celtics don’t make any acquisitions. The recent history of the NBA suggests that none of those are sure things.

When you are a break or two away in the NBA, you go for it, because the future is uncertain in both directions.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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Just shedding Kemba doesn't really give you flexibility - the Jays make so much that you can't sign another max guy on top of Smart, TT, and the rest of the small contracts. You'd have to hope to get someone long term with the TPE to make it worth it.
 

the moops

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I think it would have to be a 3 team deal where Kemba goes to that 3rd team, Drummond goes to Boston, and additional assets, mostly from Boston, go to Cleveland along with expirings/short-term contracts from the 3rd team.
Cleveland isn't going to get much for Drummond so I think most of the assets would be going to the third team that is taking on Kemba
 

BigSoxFan

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Cleveland isn't going to get much for Drummond so I think most of the assets would be going to the third team that is taking on Kemba
Yeah, I think I had that backwards. The team taking Kemba would be getting most of the assets and Cleveland would essentially be a middle man as long as they're getting expirings to make it work. They'd only get assets if they are taking on some less-than-desirable contracts from the 3rd team to make the salaries work.

But if I had to bet, I think Drummond might ultimately get cut anyways. Hard to imagine there's much out there in the way of deals for him.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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I also think the stories today about Tatum still dealing with COVID symptoms, how his shooting percentage is 4.7% less overall and 7.3% less on threes since coming back, is hurting the team more than anything during this poor stretch. He said he was having a hard time catching his breath sometimes, and that will absolutely effect him on both of ends, and since he is an anchor of the defense it explains some of those issues. If he’s closing out a half second slower it’s a huge difference. I’m waiting til they are all healthy, because we’ve yet to see this team at full strength
He was definitely front-rimming everything at the end of the game last night. He was better than the Wiz game, but still definitely sluggish.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not sure if Kemba will ever have much trade value but I don't think he's that far off from where he needs to be to opt out after next season. I'm not sure you give up assets to dump him unless something big comes up. I just saw that Beal's contract is the same as Kemba's.

If Kemba does opt out after next season, the C's should be able to sign Beal. I'm not sure it's a wasted year of the Jay's either unless you can find a better option than Kemba.

I'm not advising they sit and wait for Beal, but unless someone like Beal comes along, I'm not sure it's worth giving up assets to move Kemba. They could very well be able to sign Beal after the next season if Kemba is half way decent.
 

benhogan

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I don't think he's that far off from where he needs to be to opt out after next season. I just saw that Beal's contract is the same as Kemba's. If Kemba does opt out after next season, the C's should be able to sign Beal.
You're joking right?

getting out of Kemba early to sign Beal is the biggest pipe dream I've seen around here in quite some time

#rainbows&unicorns
 

TripleOT

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I’d be surprised if a 32 year old Krmba doesn’t opt in to his $37 million final year after next season
 

Cesar Crespo

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You're joking right?

getting out of Kemba early to sign Beal is the biggest pipe dream I've seen around here in quite some time

#rainbows&unicorns
Where do you think he would need to be to opt out of 1/37? If he's healthy all year next year and is scoring 18-20 a night and shooting 38-40% with heavy volume from 3, it is that far fetched some team would offer him 3/70 or 4/80? I know everyone comes back with the "Why wouldn't he just play out the season, he could get 3/43* easily." These guys like security.

It's waiting out 1 season. And here's the real kicker. If Kemba doesn't opt out and Beal opts in, there is literally nothing preventing the Celtics from signing Beal 2 years from now. I already said I don't advocate waiting around for Beal, but I also don't think you give up real assets to move on from Walker. How much are you willing to give up to get rid of Walker? How many first round picks? Aaron Nesmith and Romeo Langford? 1 of the 2? If you know for a fact you can get a top 20 player by unloading Walkers contract, then you do what is necessary. You don't move on from Walker's contract without another move set up. You don't just free the space to free the space. Plus, if Walker does opt in... the price to move 1 year of Kemba at $37 million is significantly cheaper than moving 2 years of Kemba at 73. It's also possible Kemba opts in, Beal opts out, the C's trade Kemba and sign Beal.

Long story short, moving on from Kemba isn't a "by every means necessary move" until it is. That time isn't right now. Maybe it's this offseason, maybe it isn't.

edit: Kind of an important edit.
 
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benhogan

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Where do you think he would need to be to opt out of 1/37? If he's healthy all year next year and is scoring 18-20 a night and shooting 38-40% with heavy volume from 3, it is that far fetched some team would offer him 3/70 or 4/80? I know everyone comes back with the "Why wouldn't he just play out the season, he could get 2/24 easily." These guys like security.

It's waiting out 1 season. And here's the real kicker. If Kemba doesn't opt out and Beal opts in, there is literally nothing preventing the Celtics from signing Beal 2 years from now. I already said I don't advocate waiting around for Beal, but I also don't think you give up real assets to move on from Walker. How much are you willing to give up to get rid of Walker? How many first round picks? Aaron Nesmith and Romeo Langford? 1 of the 2? If you know for a fact you can get a top 20 player by unloading Walkers contract, then you do what is necessary. You don't move on from Walker's contract without another move set up. You don't just free the space to free the space. Plus, if Walker does opt in... the price to move 1 year of Kemba at $37 million is significantly cheaper than moving 2 years of Kemba at 73. It's also possible Kemba opts in, Beal opts out, the C's trade Kemba and sign Beal.

Long story short, moving on from Kemba isn't a "by every means necessary move" until it is. That time isn't right now. Maybe it's this offseason, maybe it isn't.
I love the optimism after a decent offensive game in the Washington blowout. His defense is still gawd awful.

If Wyc is willing to shovel money into the tax cap incinerator by all means keep Kemba next season and hope his knee heals. BUT if Danny wants to fully use that $28.5MM TPE they need to find Kemba a new zip code by October.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I love the optimism after a decent offensive game in the Washington blowout. His defense is still gawd awful.

If Wyc is willing to shovel money into the tax cap incinerator by all means keep Kemba next season and hope his knee heals. BUT if Danny wants to fully use that $28.5MM TPE they need to find Kemba a new zip code by October.
His defense is god awful as is almost the rest of his game, but if he can hit 3s at heavy volume and dish the ball a little, it might be enough to get a decent 3 or 4 year deal.
 

lexrageorge

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The problem with trading Walker is the idea of throwing away assets to trade him. Such a move makes the team materially worse and limits their ability to improve the team, and is potentially costly if one those assets is a young player that turns into something special in his 3rd or 4th year. Ainge isn't going to do that just to save some tax dollars.
 

BigSoxFan

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The problem with trading Walker is the idea of throwing away assets to trade him. Such a move makes the team materially worse and limits their ability to improve the team, and is potentially costly if one those assets is a young player that turns into something special in his 3rd or 4th year. Ainge isn't going to do that just to save some tax dollars.
I don't think Ainge is going to do this indiscriminately. He's not giving away Langford/1st just to get rid of Kemba but he probably pays that price if he has another deal in mind. This is why I don't expect the TPE to be used until the summer. I'm sure Ainge/Zarren have designs on what they would like to do but I don't think they'll be able to do anything meaningful in-season.
 

benhogan

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That's not the question. I never wanted him.

You said there was absolutely no chance he'd opt out next season.
I never said that.

Are we really playing gotcha after one game by misquoting each other?

You're joking right?

getting out of Kemba early to sign Beal is the biggest pipe dream I've seen around here in quite some time

#rainbows&unicorns
He was pretty mediocre in his last game versus Denver between breaks.

We're supposed to admire his performance in that Washington Wizard game? That would really be a Charlotte Kemba return, hollow offensive numbers in a blowout.

Look his offense returning would be a nice benefit, hiding his defense in the playoffs is the bigger concern.
 

Jimbodandy

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If Kemba's offense returns to pre-bubble form, we'll be in pretty good fucking shape. Sure, some people didn't want him to begin with, and there's a valid POV that tiny guards can be hunted brutally in the playoffs and therefore aren't cornerstones (exceptions like Curry and Dame notwithstanding). But most of us, Danny included, knew that Kemba was a wildly flawed defensive player. The problem is when he's also a wildly flawed offensive player. I'm sure as hell not exhaling a sigh of relief that we're out of the woods on the latter yet, but we're a different team if Kemba returns to being Kemba at that end.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I never said that.

Are we really playing gotcha after one game by misquoting each other?


He was pretty mediocre in his last game versus Denver between breaks.

We're supposed to admire his performance in that Washington Wizard game? That would really be a Charlotte Kemba return, hollow offensive numbers in a blowout.

Look his offense returning would be a nice benefit, hiding his defense in the playoffs is the bigger concern.
Again, don't care about any of that. I don't like Kemba. I just think there's a very good chance he opts out after next season and moving assets to dump him could be a very stupid move. Even if he doesn't opt out, you have only 1 more year of Kemba left... which would be much easier to move.

Kemba sticking around for next season isn't the end of the world, and it may even be the C's best chance to win.

I wouldn't move assets to get rid of Kemba's contract so the C's can sign Lonzo Ball. To trade for Zach LaVine? Yeah.
 

benhogan

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I just think there's a very good chance he opts out after next season and moving assets to dump him could be a very stupid move. Even if he doesn't opt out, you have only 1 more year of Kemba left... which would be much easier to move.

Kemba sticking around for next season isn't the end of the world, and it may even be the C's best chance to win.

I wouldn't move assets to get rid of Kemba's contract so the C's can sign Lonzo Ball. To trade for Zach LaVine? Yeah.
I don't see there is a very good chance he opts out after next season. If you want to play it out with Kemba and potentially waste a couple of JayCrew years, I think that's stupid.

And if they could replace Kemba with Lonzo Ball, at the cost of a few assets, I'd be in favor of that.

But saying that Kemba is opting out and Danny is using that money to sign Beal is pretty dreamy
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't see there is a very good chance he opts out after next season. If you want to play it out with Kemba and potentially waste a couple of JayCrew years, I think that's stupid.

And if they could replace Kemba with Lonzo Ball, at the cost of a few assets, I'd be in favor of that.

But saying that Kemba is opting out and Danny is using that money to sign Beal is pretty dreamy
Lonzo now shooting 39% from 3 and 45% on high volume last month. Really wonder what his acquisition cost is now. Or if Pelicans even want to trade him anymore.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Lonzo now shooting 39% from 3 and 45% on high volume last month. Really wonder what his acquisition cost is now. Or if Pelicans even want to trade him anymore.
They can easily afford Ball and still be in good shape in the offseason of 22/23. I'd guess they keep him, and even if they do trade him, other teams have better offers.
 

benhogan

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Lonzo now shooting 39% from 3 and 45% on high volume last month. Really wonder what his acquisition cost is now. Or if Pelicans even want to trade him anymore.
Sounded as if there were rumors, there was a small window there last month?

They have some roster overlap with Ball, Bledsoe, Kira Lewis and NAW (he's played some point).

I have to admit Lonzo Ball would be a tricky addition since he has Klutch working in his corner and I don't trust them.
 

BigSoxFan

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Sounded as if there were rumors, there was a small window there last month?

They have some roster overlap with Ball, Bledsoe, Kira Lewis and NAW (he's played some point).

I have to admit Lonzo Ball would be a tricky addition since he has Klutch working in his corner and I don't trust them.
Agreed. I was in favor of it a few weeks ago but he continues to raise the acquisition price with his play and the Klutch factor makes me uneasy.
 

lexrageorge

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Ainge is not going to materially weaken the team by throwing away assets so he can trade Kemba. That's a move that simply does not make any sense, and no GM in the NBA would do it.

Kemba may yet be traded in the offseason, but it will not cost Danny any assets to do so in that case.
 

benhogan

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Santa Monica
Ainge is not going to materially weaken the team by throwing away assets so he can trade Kemba. That's a move that simply does not make any sense, and no GM in the NBA would do it.

Kemba may yet be traded in the offseason, but it will not cost Danny any assets to do so in that case.
GMs do it all the time and if his knee continues to get worse Danny can ride it out or staple assets