What is going on with Shawn Thornton?

[Reardon's Beard]

With the national attention this has received, I'll be surprised if Thornton gets less than 20 games. If he had a record of disciplinary action, he'd be looking at much worse.
 
Not saying that's fair, but that's how I see it unfolding.

 

Allowing myself a moment to advocate for Satan, I'm not sure this philosophy works where the check that started it was deemed within the rules. If the rulebook, as opposed to unwritten codes which are inherently subject to vastly different interpretations, doesn't play the largest part in determining what is permissible and what is not, then there will be problems. I have a problem with the sort of check Orpik laid on Eriksson, because the NHL allows them although it said it was serious about protecting vulnerable players. Thornton wanted to Orpik to answer because the check. But the reason Thornton wanted a piece of Orpik is beside the point. At the end of the day, this was a freak outcome. Thornton wanted to fight Orpik and if they had squared up and Orpik turtled, Thornton's punishment would have been clear and is already spelled out in the rulebook (2, 5, 10, and a game). So in that respect, I think I'll be peeved if the NHL does anything other than talk about it. (I wouldn't cry if the automatic game misconduct went away and was instead a discretionary addition for the refs.) I'm rambling now, and sorry if my snip changed the context of your post in any way, ReardonsBeard. Edit: reading again, I think we're saying much of the same thing. My view is focused on the presumption that Orpik was in the wrong in the eyes of the rulebook. Shawn being right in the eyes of The Code doesn't win him style points with the head office. Mostly, bad luck for Thornton is driving this.

 
No problem, I think we're on the same page.
 
I suspect they will aim for 15-20 games at the onset and reduce it upon an appeal/contention to 8-12 total. His reputation, first time offense, and the circumstances which led to the event will see to that. The league failed to control an escalating confrontation, and when Orpiks failed to stand trial on the ice, it was a cascading failure across the board. Shanahan is no fool and understands the unwritten rules of the game. Furthermore, I'd be surprised if Thornton's reputation around the league took a major Cooke like hit considering how it all went down.
 
The best outcome here is no more than 10 games along with a public apology. This wasn't McSorely or Domi. It was a thug act that came out of a desire to protect his teammates after the league failed to do so. That is clear to everyone who was there and everyone who is going to make a decision.
 
Let justice be done.

 

[Dogman]

No one is saying that the league is letting other teams do something because they're targeting the Bruins. I think Smas is talking about just the events of the game. The league is a fucking joke at consistently calling penalties at all, but especially hits to the head.

In the two games against the Penguins and the Leafs, there were three bad hits to the head that led to a grand total of two minutes in penalties. And even the Neal call was delayed a bit until Marchand didn't get up.

When the league isn't protecting your teammates' health, or deterring the behavior in te first place, you have to do something about it. Thornton should have done something different, but once players stop trying to hit each other in the head with impunity, we'll eliminate those incidents.

All you have to do is watch the Penguins/Flyers series from a few years ago and how little discipline was dished out to see why maggots like Neal act as they do.

 
 
Not true. The trailing ref raised his arm immediately.

 

[Myt1]

No, he didn't. He wasn't looking directly at the play (he was looking at the puck), and caught it out of the side of his vision. Seemed like he waited to see if it was bad before he did it because he wasn't sure.

It happened relatively quickly, but I think he wasn't sure at first. A long second and a half or so, but especially given where he's looking right before the impact, it looked like he was going on the result.

Edit: It's not a huge deal either way. The fact that Neal only got 2 minutes, and that Phaneuf got nothing the next game, is more damning.

 

[veritas]

No, he didn't. He wasn't looking directly at the play (he was looking at the puck), and caught it out of the side of his vision. Seemed like he waited to see if it was bad before he did it because he wasn't sure.

It happened relatively quickly, but I think he wasn't sure at first. A long second and a half or so, but especially given where he's looking right before the impact, it looked like he was going on the result.

Edit: It's not a huge deal either way. The fact that Neal only got 2 minutes, and that Phaneuf got nothing the next game, is more damning.

 
Maybe a second in the slow motion gif.  But it was immediate as penalty calls get.
 

 

[Red Right Ankle]

Yeah, he basically didn't wait any longer than it took for his brain to register "penalty!" and the signal to get to his arm.

 

[Greg29fan]

So if Thornton's play is sorta okay but not really because Neal only got two minutes then is Neal's play sorta okay but not really because Marchand only got 2 minutes for this? I mean I'm just trying to get on the same page for when scumbaggery is sorta cool.
 
http://youtu.be/3rRE4peNjfM

Where does it end? Maybe if Pierre Turgeon hadn't stolen the puck from Dale Hunter and scored then Hunter wouldn't have tried to decapitate him?

 

[kenneycb]

Christ, nobody is saying it's okay.  We're just trying to understand the reasoning as to why the hell he did it.  Not sure why you can't understand the difference.

 

[Reardon's Beard]

Yea no one is saying it's OK. It's about understanding how and why it happened. Succinctly, there were a series of cascading failures that led to the event itself - mitigating those failures moving forward is what can stop this from happening again.

 

[smastroyin]

To fans and the league, the Thornton thing is unconscionable.
 
The players, the reaction is more interesting, and speaks to my point about the disconnect between what the league wants and what the players do in terms of on-ice enforcement.
 
I know the immediate reaction will be that the Flyers and Senators aren't going to be honest about the Penguins, but I have heard a lot of this talk in the past week:
 
http://www.senatorsextra.com/main/senators-flyers-agree-james-neal-hit-was-dirty
 
Note for those who might need the clarity:  This is not me endorsing what Thornton did.

 

[Greg29fan]

Neil and Rosehill and other enforcers are standing up for Thornton because he's exactly like them and they know if they criticize him or the code or enforcers in general that they are criticizing themselves and their own jobs.

Plus the Penguins and Senators and the Penguins and the Flyers have played multiple playoff series and so the fact they don't like each other isn't exactly breaking news.

 

[smastroyin]

Your reading comprehension is not doing well this thread.  My interest is in the fact that the players are more accepting of this behavior than the fans.  If that speaks nothing to you other than "woe is me I'm a Penguins fan on a Bruins board" then fine.  I know it can be tough to take.  But do you really think there is nothing to see here?  

 

[wnyghost]

 
 

To fans and the league, the Thornton thing is unconscionable.
 
The players, the reaction is more interesting, and speaks to my point about the disconnect between what the league wants and what the players do in terms of on-ice enforcement.
 
I know the immediate reaction will be that the Flyers and Senators aren't going to be honest about the Penguins, but I have heard a lot of this talk in the past week:
 
http://www.senatorsextra.com/main/senators-flyers-agree-james-neal-hit-was-dirty
 
Note for those who might need the clarity:  This is not me endorsing what Thornton did.

I think Thornton needs to be held accountable for the results.   10 games is the minimum since Thornton does not have the history.  It should not have happened.
 What interests me is how people would rank the following in regards to Potential to Injure:
 1 - Orpik hit on Ericksson
2 - Orpik fighing Thornton
3 - Neal knee to Marchand head
4 - Thornton jumping Orpik  
My ranking is 1, 3, 2, 4.
The Orpik hit on Ericksson is the type of unnecessary “legal” hit that needs to be removed from the game.  Orpik decided to pick his spot to punish the opposing player.  I think the players need to shows more respect for the health of each other. 
If Ericksson had control of the puck I would not feel the same but he was totally defenseless. 
The NFL is attempting to address hits to defenseless players… the NHL should do the same.

 

[Greg29fan]

Your reading comprehension is not doing well this thread.  My interest is in the fact that the players are more accepting of this behavior than the fans.  If that speaks nothing to you other than "woe is me I'm a Penguins fan on a Bruins board" then fine.  I know it can be tough to take.  But do you really think there is nothing to see here?

It doesn't speak anything to me other than a group of highly specialized players (enforcers) not wanting to criticize one of their own.

I've never asked for sympathy or anything for being a Penguins fan here; it's my choice to post here, nobody else's. I think I'm pretty fair. I thought Orpik's hit on Eriksson was hard but within the rules. I didn't like Neal's hit; I didn't like Thornton's act. I want the two teams to just play hockey and try to beat each other on the scoreboard. They are two well-run teams with good players and good fans. The fact so many other things, yes many of them instigated by Pittsburgh, have happened stinks. But I'm just a fan, they don't ask my opinion on how to play or roster construction.

 

[veritas]

It doesn't speak anything to me other than a group of highly specialized players (enforcers) not wanting to criticize one of their own.

 
It's not just other enforcers.  There was also an NHL executive who called Orpik "one of the dirtiest and phoniest players in the league"
 
http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/12/09/senators-enforcers-stand-up-for-shawn-thornton

 

[Greg29fan]

And as I said in another thread, I'm sure it was Jim Rutherford from Carolina, whose franchise has a history with Orpik.

 

[catomatic]

So if Thornton's play is sorta okay but not really because Neal only got two minutes then is Neal's play sorta okay but not really because Marchand only got 2 minutes for this? I mean I'm just trying to get on the same page for when scumbaggery is sorta cool.
 
http://youtu.be/3rRE4peNjfM

Where does it end? Maybe if Pierre Turgeon hadn't stolen the puck from Dale Hunter and scored then Hunter wouldn't have tried to decapitate him?

Well for one thing, in the clip you've chosen, Neal has possession of the puck. We should start right there Marchand came from 3/4's behind, not directly behind, to check a puck-carrier. He went high, yes, but he's also giving away a good bit of height there as well. Marchand is certainly not a Lady Byng candidate, that is well established—it's not a good-looking hit by any measure, but what would you argue he should do there, try to reach around and attempt a poke-check? I'm mostly just curious. Such a play might have been possible because they're both going only about four miles an hour here.
 
I do hope though that you're not trying to establish an equivalency with the Orpik hit, because there is really no comparison, beginning with the opposing skater's puck possession, speed, targeting of the head—and degree of defenselessness in their position. These are not at all equivalent hits.

 

[Myt1]

So if Thornton's play is sorta okay but not really because Neal only got two minutes then is Neal's play sorta okay but not really because Marchand only got 2 minutes for this? I mean I'm just trying to get on the same page for when scumbaggery is kinda cool.

You're not doing a very good job of it.

 

[Myt1]

And as I said in another thread, I'm sure it was Jim Rutherford from Carolina, whose franchise has a history with Orpik.

If we have to discount statements from every team that has taken issue with Pittsburgh's garage play, we're going to be combing the Hockey East page for quotes. Two posts, and you've eliminated three teams.

James Neal likes to try to hit people in the head. It's not complicated. That the team doesn't ask you for input on roster construction doesn't make that any less so.

 

[The Napkin]

I feel like the fact that every time a team listed the response is "well they have a history with the Pens" should be a hint at something. I'm not quite sure what it is though. Maybe it'll come to me later.

 

[veritas]

Greg29Fan, maybe you should ask why so many teams have a bone to pick with the Pens.
 
I've asked the same thing about the Bruins and I do understand that playing a physical game invites teams to play physical back. And having a guy like Marchand (who I strongly wish wasn't on the team because of his bullshit antics) invites that sort of thing too.  But unlike the Penguins, the Bruins don't have a pattern of employing guys making malicious, dirty, career-ending plays.  Going all the way back to Ulf Samuelsson when I first started watching hockey.
 
edit: Napkin beat me to the point

 

[Myt1]

Tortorella complained about a knee on knee hit from Orpik and Pittsburgh's general dirty play last year. Do we have to eliminate the Rangers, the Canucks, or both?

 

[The Napkin]

Should probably get rid of the Islanders too just to be safe.
 
Also, to bring it back to the present, Gillies got 9 games for "The melee started when Gillies elbowed Penguins forward Eric Tangradi in the head.[12] After the elbow Tangradi fell to the ice where he was continually punched."

 

[Greg29fan]

Ulf Samuelsson also played for the Whalers, the Rangers, the Red Wings (for 4 games) and the Flyers
Matt Cooke also played for the Canucks, the Capitals, and now the Wild
James Neal also played for the Stars

It isn't just the Penguins these guys are playing for. That doesn't excuse their acts while they were members of the franchise, but singling out just the Penguins for having players of this ilk is ridiculous. Are the Penguins supposed to be the only team in the league full of nothing but choir boys?

 

[kenneycb]

No, it just means the Penguins have employed a lot of hateable players and that, combined with their success, makes them very hateable.

 

[Myt1]

Ulf Samuelsson also played for the Whalers, the Rangers, the Red Wings (for 4 games) and the Flyers
Matt Cooke also played for the Canucks, the Capitals, and now the Wild
James Neal also played for the Stars

It isn't just the Penguins these guys are playing for. That doesn't excuse their acts while they were members of the franchise, but singling out just the Penguins for having players of this ilk is ridiculous. Are the Penguins supposed to be the only team in the league full of nothing but choir boys?

I agree.  It appears that playing for Pittsburgh is an aggravating factor in douchebaggery.

 

[allstonite]

One thing I just thought of that I haven't seen anywhere is the timing of all of this. Everything happened in the first 12 minutes of the first period of that game. Thornton didn't have a chance to see a good replay of the Orpik hit (besides maybe a bad view on the big screen) to see whether it was legal or not. He just saw Eriksson knocked out of the game on a big hit and Boychuk had been carted off on a stretcher on a borderline hit the previous game. 
 
This is in no way excusing anything he did because it was obviously wrong. I'm just trying to rationalize a well respected player with a long history of honoring "the code" pulling a dirty move like that. He was likely frustrated seeing the Bruins carted off with no retribution. I thought even the roughing earlier was out of character for him. He'll usually challenge, maybe shove someone around in a scrum but he never loses his cool like that. 

 

[TSC]

Thornton had his hearing today, but numerous sources are reporting that a decision won't come until tomorrow.
 
I don't think the extra time bodes well for Shawn.

 

[TheRealness]

I'm gonna go ahead and put the O/U at 13.5 games and I'm taking the over. 

 

[TSC]

I'm gonna go ahead and put the O/U at 13.5 games and I'm taking the over. 

 
I'd take the under. I think it's going to be 12 games. But with the randomness that is NHL Discipline I could see it being 5, or 20 as well.

 

[The Napkin]

Orpik was skating today. That shouldn't matter but it's the nhl so...
 
(Also, I thought it was interesting that he hasn't had any concussion tests yet. Is it normal to wait this long? I frankly have no idea.)

 

[veritas]

Cam Janssen defending Thornton:
 
http://blogs.post-gazette.com/sports/2013-06-20-18-51-15/empty-netters/40046-devils-janssen-feels-orpik-should-have-stepped-up-12-13-12
 

 
He hurts guys because he’s powerful in his hits. I do the same thing. But you do that, you crush guys like that, you’re going to have to step up and stick up for yourself once in a while. Because if you don’t do that, then the other team feels like they haven’t had their justice yet. Then the game becomes a donnybrook

 

[Dropkick Izzy]

(Also, I thought it was interesting that he hasn't had any concussion tests yet. Is it normal to wait this long? I frankly have no idea.)

I was looking for his status before the BJ's game and it seemed like there was a dearth of info.

Perhaps he and Max were catching a movie...

 

[mikeford]

Cam Janssen defending Thornton:
 
http://blogs.post-gazette.com/sports/2013-06-20-18-51-15/empty-netters/40046-devils-janssen-feels-orpik-should-have-stepped-up-12-13-12
 

This really only further Greg's point that its garbage enforcer scrubs coming to a garbage enforcer scrub's defense. 

 

[veritas]

This really only further Greg's point that its garbage enforcer scrubs coming to a garbage enforcer scrub's defense. 

 
Wasn't throwing it out there as an argument against Greg's point.  Just relevant to the thread overall.  Very poorly articulated by Janssen if you read the article, FWIW

 

[Blacken]

Haggerty (yeah, I know) mentioned on CSNNE he originally expected ten games, but the delay is making him revise that upward.

 

[kenneycb]

This really only further Greg's point that its garbage enforcer scrubs coming to a garbage enforcer scrub's defense. 

Minus the characterization of Thornton as a garbage enforcer scrub.

 

[veritas]

Haggerty is a total piece of shit "reporter". It blows my mind that someone gives that guy real money to write articles.  Earlier today on Twitter he made fun of Amalie Benjamin for saying the league wouldn't suspend Thornton until tomorrow, then 2 hours later he tweets this:
 
https://twitter.com/HackswithHaggs/status/411623013155487745

 
Thornton suspension decision will be "almost certainly tomorrow", per league source. @NHLShanahan giving appropriate time and thought to it

 
Seriously, fuck that guy.
 
edit:  Dellow sums it up pretty well:
 
https://twitter.com/mc79hockey/status/411601631340281856
 

 
.@AmalieBenjamin needs to learn how to do journalism: you carry a team's water and then want they want to shiv a 21 year old, they use you.

 

[smastroyin]

OK, well does it matter that Sidney Crosby said it is part of policing the game and Thornton just did it wrong?  Is he a goon now too?  Does he have a problem with the Penguins?
 
We all know that the way Thronton went about what he did was wrong.  We all know that and you should just shut the fuck up if you don't understand that.  The point is whether hockey should continue to allow the on-ice policing to be the norm or if they want to cut down on these types of things escalating.  They seem to be content with just letting shit happen and suspending players when they cross the line.  That's fine.  Whatever, Thornton is going to do some serious time.  But is it the best system?  I don't know.  I do know that refs seem to be letting more and more games get out of control and expecting the "player safety office" to do the work after the games are done.  But I could be wrong.
 
I still think Orpik made just as bad a decision when he chose to run a guy who just came back from a pretty serious concussion on essentially the first shift.  Not because the game was already chippy, but because you have some shitty idea that because you played like a festering pustule in the ECF you have to match the Bruins hitting and send a message.  Yeah, Eriksson was on the ice and he was fair game, but if we are playing the player safety card, that's a dangerous decision.

 

[The Napkin]

Then later last night Haggs tweeted something like "as reported here first no decision until tomorrow." Yeah. If by reported you mean retweeted Dreger's tweet. But I digress from the point of the thread.

 

[Corzine the Thief]

15 games per dreger

 

[Reardon's Beard]

5 too many IMO.
 
He can appeal now, can't he?

 

[Haunted]

Ok, that to me is ridiculous, when Neal only gets 5.