What If? The Sox had signed Mussina in 2001?

[jose melendez]

The Soto speculation got me thinking. The Watcher is here and he's asking the question: What if the Sox had won the Mussina sweepstakes in 2001? I think the only way this happens is if the MFY had decided that wanted Manny instead of Mussina, so let's assume Manny ends up in right field at the toilet.

Both the Mussina and Manny contracts turned out quite well. My back of envelope has Mussina giving the MFY about 34 WAR and Manny giving the Sox around 31. The obvious implication is that it doesn't make much of a difference. That said, Papi and Manny back to back were really the heart of the offense and the essence of the team in that era. With Mussina presumably the Sox never get Schilling (and the Yankees probably do). Nomar presumably still gets traded, but maybe not if the A-Rod rumors never pop. Maybe we just have overpaid always hurt Nomar. I don't think Mussina fits terribly well with the Idiot/Cowboy Up style, if it even exists. I also think Manny probably ends up in a massive feud with SiaS. ultimately I suspect both teams are a bit less successful. The MFY probably win fewer games in that period, but I'm not sure the Sox win two rings either.

I'm glad things went how they did.

 

[dirtynine]

Carl Everett never has his only redeeming moment as a Sox.

 

[AlNipper49]

Didn’t Mussina beat Pedro is an ungodly weird amount of 1-0 games during the 03/04 seasons? (Those 0s were likely Bellhorn’s fault to be fair)

 

[BaseballJones]

Didn’t Mussina beat Pedro is an ungodly weird amount of 1-0 games during the 03/04 seasons? (Those 0s were likely Bellhorn’s fault to be fair)

I was at the 2-1 Yankee win against the Sox in Yankee Stadium on July 7, 2003. Neither Pedro nor Mussina got the win.

Pedro: 7.0 ip, 5 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 11 k
Mussina: 8.0 ip, 2 h, 1 r, 1 er, 1 bb, 9 k

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Didn’t Mussina beat Pedro is an ungodly weird amount of 1-0 games during the 03/04 seasons? (Those 0s were likely Bellhorn’s fault to be fair)

Pedro never lost to the Yankees 1-0 in his career. Mussina only beat the Sox 1-0 once while he was a Yankee (the near perfecto in 2001), and the Sox starter that night was David Cone. There were no 1-0 games between the Sox and Yankees in 2003-2004. In fact, the Yankees never shut the Sox out in those seasons. On the other hand, the Sox had two shut outs (11-0 by Wake in September 2003, 2-0 by Pedro in April 2004).

 

[BaseballJones]

I was at the 2-1 Yankee win against the Sox in Yankee Stadium on July 7, 2003. Neither Pedro nor Mussina got the win.

Pedro: 7.0 ip, 5 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 11 k
Mussina: 8.0 ip, 2 h, 1 r, 1 er, 1 bb, 9 k

Actually, I stand corrected. It was the 2-1 Yankee win against the Sox on May 24, 2001.

Pedro: 8.0 ip, 6 h, 2 r, 2 er, 3 bb, 12 k
Mussina: 8.0 ip, 6 h, 1 r, 1 er, 0 bb, 12 k

 

[AlNipper49]

Pedro never lost to the Yankees 1-0 in his career. Mussina only beat the Sox 1-0 once while he was a Yankee (the near perfecto in 2001), and the Sox starter that night was David Cone. There were no 1-0 games between the Sox and Yankees in 2003-2004. In fact, the Yankees never shut the Sox out in those seasons. On the other hand, the Sox had two shut outs (11-0 by Wake in September 2003, 2-0 by Pedro in April 2004).

Weird. I guess 20 years makes me reframe close games in an extreme manner!

 

[Van Everyman]

Wasn’t Mussina supposedly the guy who told reporters off the record that NYC was filled with dirty immigrants or something?

I have two abiding memories of him, both mostly negative:

1) My now-wife and me taking her Yankee fan parents to Camden Yards ca. 2002 and Mussina one-hitting his former team while Yankee fans took over Camden Yards with brooms singing “Na na na, hey hey goodbye” when the O’s were terrible and in last place. What a bunch of assholes.

2) Mussina never winning 20 games until his last season with the Yankees, which felt like a back door cover to get in the HOF even if it wasn’t really.

In short, fuck him and I’m def. glad things worked out the way they did.

 

[chrisfont9]

I wonder if we get A-Rod? Without Manny's contract to get off, the deal would have been totally different, maybe Nomar and a pitcher like Arroyo or other prospects. Maybe the Sox accept the whole A-Rod contract because they need more offense without Manny. Maybe we win the world series in 04 with far, far less fun.

 

[jose melendez]

Why did Mussina retire when he did? His last season was very good.

 

[chrisfont9]

Why did Mussina retire when he did? His last season was very good.

39 y.o., kind of emptied the tank. 200 IP

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I wonder if we get A-Rod? Without Manny's contract to get off, the deal would have been totally different, maybe Nomar and a pitcher like Arroyo or other prospects. Maybe the Sox accept the whole A-Rod contract because they need more offense without Manny. Maybe we win the world series in 04 with far, far less fun.

Why wouldn't the pitcher going for ARod still be Jon Lester? I do think there'd still need to be more going with Nomar (if he became the big piece) because Nomar had one year left where as Manny, though expensive, was locked up for five more (plus two options). I'm not sure the finances really change though because ARod was coming to a Manny-less Red Sox regardless, unless you're suggesting they were more desperate to add offense to a team that never had Manny's bat in the lineup.

Frankly, signing Mussina instead of Manny probably changes the fortunes of the team so dramatically that maybe Harrington and the Yawkey group don't sell when they do and Henry, Werner, and Lucchino never team up to buy the team and Theo never comes to Boston and we recognize nothing of what the team became instead.

 

[chrisfont9]

Why wouldn't the pitcher going for ARod still be Jon Lester? I do think there'd still need to be more going with Nomar (if he became the big piece) because Nomar had one year left where as Manny, though expensive, was locked up for five more (plus two options). I'm not sure the finances really change though because ARod was coming to a Manny-less Red Sox regardless, unless you're suggesting they were more desperate to add offense to a team that never had Manny's bat in the lineup.

Frankly, signing Mussina instead of Manny probably changes the fortunes of the team so dramatically that maybe Harrington and the Yawkey group don't sell when they do and Henry, Werner, and Lucchino never team up to buy the team and Theo never comes to Boston and we recognize nothing of what the team became instead.

Ah right, Lester. And yes, I am suggesting the Manny-less Sox would be more desperate for a lineup anchor.

 

[cannonball 1729]

Wasn’t Mussina supposedly the guy who told reporters off the record that NYC was filled with dirty immigrants or something?

Probably not. That was a weird story, but it has more to do with Peter Gammons than Mike Mussina. To wit:

1.) John Rocker told a reporter that the 9 train in New York is filled with (every racist thing you can say).

2.) Peter Gammons, who at the time seemed to have a tendency to make up poorly-sourced information, said in response to the Rocker situation that there was a star pitcher who was the graduate of an elite four-year college who also threw around racial slurs and would never accept a trade to New York. Rob Neyer took a look and found that the only pitchers who fit anything close to those criteria would be Mike Mussina, Kevin Tapani, and one other pitcher I forget...which is to say, Mike Mussina was the only person that could have been. Given that Mussina then signed with the Yankees a year later, I'm going to say that it was more of a "Gammons talking out of his posterior to make Rocker look slightly better" incident than any sort of reflection on Mike Mussina.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Probably not. That was a weird story, but it has more to do with Peter Gammons than Mike Mussina. To wit:

1.) John Rocker told a reporter that the 9 train in New York is filled with (every racist thing you can say).

2.) Peter Gammons, who at the time seemed to have a tendency to make up poorly-sourced information, said in response to the Rocker situation that there was a star pitcher who was the graduate of an elite four-year college who also threw around racial slurs and would never accept a trade to New York. Rob Neyer took a look and found that the only pitchers who fit anything close to those criteria would be Mike Mussina, Kevin Tapani, and one other pitcher I forget...which is to say, Mike Mussina was the only person that could have been. Given that Mussina then signed with the Yankees a year later, I'm going to say that it was more of a "Gammons talking out of his posterior to make Rocker look slightly better" incident than any sort of reflection on Mike Mussina.

For some reason Gammons really went hard on defending Rocker. I remember more than one article written about Rocker, his family and how they were saints of Georgia. Even back then I thought it was so weird.

Like the guy is an asshole, why are you defending him so hard?

 

[Devizier]

Are we sure it wasn’t Toe Nash who made the disparaging comments about the residents of NYC?

I think generally, the way things turned out was pretty great. Manny was kind of an break-even investment for most of his contract, but he peaked at the right moments and the cascade of moves if the Sox went the other way is hard to imagine.

 

[j-man]

u never win the 04 series
it takes 14 extra years to break the cruse
NYY HOU OR STL win in 04
Cle wins it all in 07
det wins it all in 13

 

[j-man]

yeah if the yanks sign manny they have a 50/50 shot winning 7 in a row 98-2004

 

[Humphrey]

Another "what if" of the same timeframe was what if they signed Bernie Williams (who is who they really wanted) instead of Jose Offerman? Williams for Mo Vaughn for the next 5 years was a hell of a swap for the Red Sox.