What If…? Red Sox Edition

[koufax32]

I’m a history teacher, so we play this game a lot in my classes.
There are a lot of these. My favorite/most frustrating what if involves the infamous Tom Yawkey and his merry band of racist scumbags.
What if he had relented or just wasn’t a racist, and signed a couple of players who were available? Imagine going through the 1950’s with a 2-4 of:

2B: Jackie Robinson
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Willie Mays

Imagine the effect on Mays statistics in that lineup. How would the rest of that lineup look? Do they win pennants or a WS? Or, does the fan base get an earful from Williams the first time Jackie or Willie have a bad game and get racially harassed?

What are some other What Ifs? in Red Sox history?

https://glennstout.com/tryout-and-fallout-race-jackie-robinson-and-the-red-sox/

https://bosoxinjection.com/2020/05/15/red-sox-signed-willie-mays/amp/

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

What if Armbrister is called out?

What if Yaz singles off Gossage?

 

[Sin Duda]

I started following the Red Sox zealously in 1975. My two What ifs are (1) what if Verne Ruhle hadn't broken big Jim Ed Rice's hand with a pitch and late September? Do the Sox win the series against the Reds? https://www.google.com/amp/s/bosoxinjection.com/2014/03/22/jim-rices-1975-hbp-story-two-players/amp/

And what if umpire Larry Barnett had called Ed Armbrister for interfering with Carlton Fisk during a bunt play in 11th inning of World Series Game 3? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mlb.com/video/fisk-tangles-with-armbrister-c31116737&ved=2ahUKEwi4m8z37Zf3AhX5kGoFHZVnCF4QwqsBegQIDBAE&usg=AOvVaw1hx42tihVuRVxFQnKN4b4R

 

[Pandemonium67]

Tony C will always be a big what if.

 

[soxhop411]

Here is an even bigger “what if”
Sox scout tweeted an excerpt from MoneyBall regarding Billy Beane’s plans if he actually ended up taking the Red Sox job. There are so many different ways Red Sox history ends up if he actually went thru with these moves.
Tek would not have spent his career with the Sox for starters. With Manny as the DH, would the sox still have gone after Ortiz? And that’s just the first two “what if’s” that immediately popped into my head

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

I suppose we should start with: What if Frazee doesn’t sell off his best players, including that big fella to the team to the south?

 

[Mugsy's Jock]

What if Selig hadn’t greased the wheels for JWH, and Charles Dolan bought the Red Sox?

 

[Mueller's Twin Grannies]

What if Schilling did what the FO wanted for 2008 and was actually able to pitch in the postseason?

Failing that, what if Bartolo Colón doesn't quit on the team in the same year?

In either case, do they beat the Rays and go back-to-back, or do they go down to the Phillies instead?

Not to open up old wounds, but what if Knoblauch's "phantom tag" isn't called? Do the Sox come back and "end the curse" a few years earlier?

What if the A-Rod trade had been allowed to happen?

What if Buckner isn't on 1B in Game 6?

There's a lot, sadly.

 

[koufax32]

I suppose we should start with: What if Frazee doesn’t sell off his best players, including that big fella to the team to the south?

That’s the second biggest one, IMO. I didn’t want to steal it with the OP. There’s the potential for angering or alienating teammates with his insistence on batting instead of focusing on his pitching, but I think that would have been a nothingburger as soon as they saw him raking. Were there enough brothels in Boston to keep him game day ready at all times though?

 

[Saints Rest]

What if Nomar had signed his 4/$60m contract at the start of 2004?

 

[Van Everyman]

I’m a history teacher, so we play this game a lot in my classes.
There are a lot of these. My favorite/most frustrating what if involves the infamous Tom Yawkey and his merry band of racist scumbags.
What if he had relented or just wasn’t a racist, and signed a couple of players who were available? Imagine going through the 1950’s with a 2-4 of:

2B: Jackie Robinson
LF: Ted Williams
CF: Willie Mays

Imagine the effect on Mays statistics in that lineup. How would the rest of that lineup look? Do they win pennants or a WS? Or, does the fan base get an earful from Williams the first time Jackie or Willie have a bad game and get racially harassed?

What are some other What Ifs? in Red Sox history?

https://glennstout.com/tryout-and-fallout-race-jackie-robinson-and-the-red-sox/

https://bosoxinjection.com/2020/05/15/red-sox-signed-willie-mays/amp/

I do wonder how Boston would be perceived in terms of race relations had we signed Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays instead of Ted. Yes, Red had Bill Russell but the Sox have a special—and prominent—place in Boston sports and culture.

 

[Ferm Sheller]

What if Tony Clark's 2004 Game 5 double stayed in the field of play?

What if Marc Sullivan had been born female?

What if the Joe Rudi/Rollie Fingers trade hadn't been voided?

 

[Archer1979]

What if Grady pulled Pedro and the Sox won Game Seven of the 2003 ALCS only to lose to the Marlins in the World Series. Would what transpired in 2004 have still happened?

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

What if Dave Roberts was called out at second?

 

[Ferm Sheller]

What if Yaz singles off Gossage?

Or Pinella hadn't had a "Hey Ma, look what I found moment"?

 

[Pegleg]

Moving over to Hoops, St. Louis could conceivably had a front line of Petit, Russell and Naulls.

 

[Ferm Sheller]

What if Buckner had made the play?

 

[bankshot1]

What if Earl Wilson wasn't traded for a bag of Demeters in 1966?

What if Luis Aparicio hadn't tripped rounding 3rd in '72?

 

[Van Everyman]

What if Buckner had made the play?

Hendu hits another in the 13th

 

[runnels3]

What if Zimmer brings in Drago, which he should have, instead of Steamer?

 

[Bread of Yaz]

What if Tony C had ducked in time?

 

[Ferm Sheller]

What if Jim Rice had played in the '75 Series, or Tom Seaver in the '86 Series?

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

What if the Sammy Sosa/Kevin Appier/John Wettland signings Weren’t voided when the 94 strike was settled.

 

[riboflav]

Counterfactual history is the worst history and not really history at all. This whole exercise is tedious.

 

[riboflav]

What if the Red Sox won the WS last year? That would've been amazing.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I do wonder how Boston would be perceived in terms of race relations had we signed Jackie Robinson and Willie Mays instead of Ted. Yes, Red had Bill Russell but the Sox have a special—and prominent—place in Boston sports and culture.

What if the Braves didn’t leave? They already had a Black player in 1951 (ROY Sam Jethroe) and Hank Aaron would show up in 1954–a year after they left.

 

[ookami7m]

Not to open up old wounds, but what if Knoblauch's "phantom tag" isn't called? Do the Sox come back and "end the curse" a few years earlier?

To this day, this is the play that makes me the angriest of all the "curse" plays leading up to 04.

 

[Max Power]

What if Buckner had made the play?

The better question would be what if Stanley/Schiraldi were able to close it out. The game was tied by the time Buckner couldn't make the play. But if the Red Sox had won the World Series in 1986, would they have felt pressured to trade Jeff Bagwell for pitching to make a push 4 years later? Or would they have been more willing to ride it out having already banked a championship in the recent past?

Mo Vaughan would have played a lot more games at DH and Jose Canseco would never have been on the team. And it would have made 2003 and 2004 a bit less interesting.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

What if the Sox had still sold Ruth to the Yankees but kept Ed Barrow? Ruth it still Ruth in New York, but maybe the Yankees teams themselves aren’t as good and the Red Sox are much more competitive in the 20’s and 30’s with Barrow making decisions.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I don’t think that baseball is BASEBALL if the Babe didn’t play in New York. The silver lining of the Ruth sale is that it undoubtedly helped the game in a massive, massive way.

Every baseball team owes the Red Sox a huge debt of gratitude.

 

[MtPleasant Paul]

I don’t think that baseball is BASEBALL if the Babe didn’t play in New York. The silver lining of the Ruth sale is that it undoubtedly helped the game in a massive, massive way.

Every baseball team owes the Red Sox a huge debt of gratitude.

Upon sober reflection, this is massive, massive nonsense. It's the hoary bromide that if it didn't happen in New York it didn't happen. Baseball would have done quite nicely in the interwar era if the Babe had swatted his home runs in Boston rather than in Gotham.

And Jackie Robinson's career would have been just as consequential if Tom Yawkey had the foresight and the courage to offer him a contract rather than Brooklyn.

 

[m0ckduck]

What if the Sammy Sosa/Kevin Appier/John Wettland signings Weren’t voided when the 94 strike was settled.

Yep, this is a good one.

What if Schilling did what the FO wanted for 2008 and was actually able to pitch in the postseason?

Failing that, what if Bartolo Colón doesn't quit on the team in the same year?

Speaking of Colon, what if Theo hadn't valued Casey Fossum quite so highly and had unloaded him before the 2003 offseason for the 29 year-old version of Colon that had just posted a 147 ERA+ in 233 IP the previous year. Is this enough to get Boston past NY and FL in the 2003 postseason? Probably... but if not, they don't wind up getting Schilling the following off-season.

What if a team had claimed Manny off waivers in 2003 when the Sox were giving him away, and we'd wound up with several years of Vladimir Guerrero instead?

This isn't a specific moment, exactly, but I think a lot about if the 2010 Sox hadn't been one of the most injury-ravaged modern teams. The failure of that team to make the postseason seemed like an inflection point when Theo started to lose organizational control, leading to splashy free-agent signings, beer and chicken, the Punto trade, the gorilla suit, etc. I feel like there's an alternate reality where Epstein has been a Billy Beane-like fixture in the front office for the last two decades.

Edit: what if I could remember that the gorilla suit episode happened in 2005 and not when Epstein left in 2011?

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Upon sober reflection, this is massive, massive nonsense. It's the hoary bromide that if it didn't happen in New York it didn't happen. Baseball would have done quite nicely in the interwar era if the Babe had swatted his home runs in Boston rather than in Gotham.

Babe Ruth was the exact right player at the exact right time in the exact right place. If he played in any other city, he would have been great; but playing in New York City in the 1920s made him a legend.

NYC has and always will be the media capital of the country if not the world. People who do what they do and succeed in NYC are (unfairly? IDK, it depends on your perspective) overhyped. Ban Johnson wanted a franchise in NYC for this reason and was why he facilitated the move of the original Orioles to the Bronx.

There’s a reason why Japanese pilots weren’t screaming “Fuck Ty Cobb!” when they were attacking American soldiers in WWII. Even when the prevailing wisdom at the time was that Cobb was the better ball player.

I’m sorry you don’t believe it, but it’s true. Babe Ruth wouldn’t be BABE RUTH if he spent the bulk of his career as a Red or a Pirate or an Athletic. it sucks for Red Sox fans but baseball, as a whole, was simply better for it.

 

[Bowhemian]

What if Bucky Dent was hit by a cab and seriously injured in October 1, 1978?

 

[Ale Xander]

What if there was no WWII and Teddy Ballgame played in 43-45

 

[MtPleasant Paul]

The reason the Japanese did not invoke Ty Cobb in that epithet had little to nothing to do with where they played but because Ty had neither the Babe's outsized personality nor his transforming impact on baseball.

New York's role as the "media capital" in the 20's and 30's is overrated. The New York writers' columns (as well as the Babe's ghostwritten ones) were syndicated around the country. The Babe was a movie star. He made at least 15 films. His regular postseason barnstorming tours, as documented by Jane Leavy in the Big Fella, were huge events.

I'll grant you that the Babe's career didn't suffer from playing in New York, but the man was a giant (in several ways). He would have been the Babe even if he had played in Boston.

 

[Mueller's Twin Grannies]

What if Ruth had gone to the Giants or Dodgers might be a more fun, less agita-inducing hypothetical. Still NY, just not in pinstripes.

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

Ruth going to the Giants would have likely led to the San Francisco Yankees.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

The reason the Japanese did not invoke Ty Cobb in that epithet had little to nothing to do with where they played but because Ty had neither the Babe's outsized personality nor his transforming impact on baseball.

New York's role as the "media capital" in the 20's and 30's is overrated. The New York writers' columns (as well as the Babe's ghostwritten ones) were syndicated around the country. The Babe was a movie star. He made at least 15 films. His regular postseason barnstorming tours, as documented by Jane Leavy in the Big Fella, were huge events.

I'll grant you that the Babe's career didn't suffer from playing in New York, but the man was a giant (in several ways). He would have been the Babe even if he had played in Boston.

Aside from you, overrated by whom? Show your work.

 

[edoug]

What if Jim Rice had played in the '75 Series, or Tom Seaver in the '86 Series?

Tony C in '67

What if Armbrister is called out?

What if Yaz singles off Gossage?

The Jerry Remy hit gets by Piniella.

 

[jaytftwofive]

A more recent one. What if we kept Rizzo and Beltre and didn't trade for Gonzales and sign Crawford?? No Nick Punto trade that's for sure. Would Sox have won the division in 2011? Probably not, but I think they make the Wild Card. And maybe no Valentine, And Francona stays.

 

[jaytftwofive]

The story on the Armbrister-Fisk collision is that the umpires explained that he didn't interfere because he stopped. Curt Gowdy in the NBC booth harshly criticized the umps. They say that's how he lost the Baseball job at NBC. There was an umpire in the booth that tried to explain the call but Curt wouldn't listen. In Bill Lee's book "The wrong Stuff" he said that Geronimo was tagged out at third by Rico and was called safe. He argued hard but to no avail. Everybody and the cameras were all focused on home plate call. The story on Curt Gowdy is that the Umpires union said they would protest or boycott if he wasn't removed the next season. Either way he never did another baseball game for NBC after Game 7.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Tony C in '67

The Jerry Remy hit gets by Piniella.

Say the Sox did beat the Yanks in the one game playoff in 78. Who would have started game 1 the next day against the Royals in KC? Eck, Torrez and Luis couldn't because they had started Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I'm not sure if they beat the Royals. Would it have been Stanley? Lee?? (He was in Zimmer's doghouse) Jim Wright?? Bobby "Ice water in his veins" Sprowl?? And would Eck have pitched game 2 on 3 days rest?? The pitching lineup was not in their favor. Oh well, we'll never know but I still would have loved to make it there.

 

[trekfan55]

The reason the Japanese did not invoke Ty Cobb in that epithet had little to nothing to do with where they played but because Ty had neither the Babe's outsized personality nor his transforming impact on baseball.

New York's role as the "media capital" in the 20's and 30's is overrated. The New York writers' columns (as well as the Babe's ghostwritten ones) were syndicated around the country. The Babe was a movie star. He made at least 15 films. His regular postseason barnstorming tours, as documented by Jane Leavy in the Big Fella, were huge events.

I'll grant you that the Babe's career didn't suffer from playing in New York, but the man was a giant (in several ways). He would have been the Babe even if he had played in Boston.

It´s important to note that Yankee Stadium was built and inaugurated in 1923 with Babe Ruth in mind. It is known as The House that Ruth Built, but that short little league porch in RF was made for Babe Ruth. How many HRs does he hit in Fenway? His career certainly had a boost from the stadium and from the lineup he had around him.

I know he hit 59 HRs in 1921 when his home stadium was the Polo Grounds, but moving forward, maybe he does not hit 714, his career is shorter, etc. That´s all part of this "What If" exercise.

Ruth going to the Giants would have likely led to the San Francisco Yankees.

Now that, is an interesting twist. And quite possibly true, except O´Malley needed an NL team to move with him out west.

 

[edoug]

Say the Sox did beat the Yanks in the one game playoff in 78. Who would have started game 1 the next day against the Royals in KC? Eck, Torrez and Luis couldn't because they had started Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I'm not sure if they beat the Royals. Would it have been Stanley? Lee?? (He was in Zimmer's doghouse) Jim Wright?? Bobby "Ice water in his veins" Sprowl?? And would Eck have pitched game 2 on 3 days rest?? The pitching lineup was not in their favor. Oh well, we'll never know but I still would have loved to make it there.

Jim Wright was very good. But he barely pitched in Sept. of '78. When he did he wasn't effective. No way Zimmer swallows his pride and pitches Lee. So I think he goes with Stanley on 3 days rest (not counting his 1 inning stint in the one game playoff). It would've been tough to beet the Royals because of the problems with the rotation and they have always had a hard time against the Royals. Especially in KC. Still it would've been great to beat the Yankees and made it into the playoffs.

 

[lexrageorge]

Say the Sox did beat the Yanks in the one game playoff in 78. Who would have started game 1 the next day against the Royals in KC? Eck, Torrez and Luis couldn't because they had started Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I'm not sure if they beat the Royals. Would it have been Stanley? Lee?? (He was in Zimmer's doghouse) Jim Wright?? Bobby "Ice water in his veins" Sprowl?? And would Eck have pitched game 2 on 3 days rest?? The pitching lineup was not in their favor. Oh well, we'll never know but I still would have loved to make it there.

Zimmer had already went to a 4-man rotation in latter half of September: Eck, Torrez, Tiant, and Stanley.

So Stanley would have been Game 1 with Wright in reserve for long relief. Then Eck, Tiant, and Torrez.

 

[Red Straw Hat '42]

What if the chicken and beer brigade had waited until post-game?

 

[brs3]

What if Jody Reed accepts the LA Dodgers 3 year deal in 1993 and they don't trade Pedro Martinez to the Montreal Expos for Delino DeShields? Massive butterfly effect.

 

[jaytftwofive]

What if Jody Reed accepts the LA Dodgers 3 year deal in 1993 and they don't trade Pedro Martinez to the Montreal Expos for Delino DeShields? Massive butterfly effect.

Yes or what if DeShields decides to play basketball at Villanova which he originally committed to before changing his mind and signing with the Expos to play baseball?? We don't get Pedro most likely.

 

[jaytftwofive]

Zimmer had already went to a 4-man rotation in latter half of September: Eck, Torrez, Tiant, and Stanley.

So Stanley would have been Game 1 with Wright in reserve for long relief. Then Eck, Tiant, and Torrez.

Bill Lee was clearly still a good pitcher as he proved with the Expos in 79. Zimmer blew it by benching him. Yaz begged Zimmer during the Boston massacre to start Lee in the rotation again. Zimmer refused. If the Sox won it in the 9th or extra innings then Stanley probably starts anyway. If no Dent Home Run then he definitely starts. Speaking of that what if Dent doesn't foul the ball off his foot and hurt himself a bit? Does he hit a home run without Nettles "corked" LOL bat that Rivers gave him? Isn't that whose it was, or was it just Rivers bat? Anyway Zimmer is the main reason Sox didn't win the division in 78. His handling of the pitching staff and playing people injured till it was too late-Hobson, Dewey. And benching Lee.