Wes Unseld Dead

Kliq

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NBA HoF player Wes Unseld has died.

View: https://twitter.com/WashWizards/status/1267813394003955714?s=20


Unseld is one of those players who always gets brought up when you talk about guys who stats didn't tell the whole story. Averaging 10 ppg and 14 rpg for your career won't put many players in the Hall of Fame, but Unseld excelled at various unselfish parts of the game. His outlet passing was the stuff of legend and triggered countless fast breaks, and his wall-like screens were the impetuous for half-court sets. At 6'7" he always played bigger than his size and banged around during an era that was absolutely loaded with premier big men, including Kareem, Wilt, Cowens, Reed, Walton, Lanier, McAdoo and more.

He is the only rookie to win the MVP award in NBA history, and he probably didn't deserve it. Reed and Russell were clearly better, and Billy Cunningham and Elgin Baylor had legit cases as well. However, as Bill Simmons wrote about in his book, there was something cool about rewarding a player who did all the little things well and a vote for Wes meant that you really knew your hoops, and didn't just vote based on whoever scored the most points or grabbed the most rebounds.

He was the MVP of '78 Finals and the best player on a championship team, even if Elvin Hayes put up bigger numbers.

It is crazy to think that out of all the NBA MVPs, only Wilt, Moses, Kobe and now Unseld are dead. It is amazing to see so many of the old NBA legends, dating back to Cousy and Pettit, still around.
 

joe dokes

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The Knick-Bullet battles of the late 60s and early 70s were classics. Reed and Unseld were both undersized (Unseld more so), but those two, Bradley-Marin, Gus Johnson-DeBusschere, Frazier/Barnett - Monroe/Loughery (and later Archie Clark & Phil Chenier when Monroe went to NY) were perfectly matched.
It seemed that despite getting only a few inches off the floor, his outlet pass would be to halfcourt before he hit the ground.

And he was a career 50% 3pt shooter!
(3/6)
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Unseld was short but not really "undersized." He was a load (heavier than Cowens, KAJ, etc.) and tough to get position on.
 

jaytftwofive

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The Knick-Bullet battles of the late 60s and early 70s were classics. Reed and Unseld were both undersized (Unseld more so), but those two, Bradley-Marin, Gus Johnson-DeBusschere, Frazier/Barnett - Monroe/Loughery (and later Archie Clark & Phil Chenier when Monroe went to NY) were perfectly matched.
It seemed that despite getting only a few inches off the floor, his outlet pass would be to halfcourt before he hit the ground.

And he was a career 50% 3pt shooter!
(3/6)
The Bullets of 68-69 had the best record in the league but lost Gus Johnson a valuable player in February or March and then they lost 4 straight to the Knicks in the first round. A good Knicks team. The Celts barely beat the knicks in 6 and of course upset the Lakers for their 11th title. I wonder how different it would have been if Johnson never got hurt.
 

jaytftwofive

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What's crazy is that the same year Elvin Hayes who was also a rookie averaged 28.4 pts per game, led the league in scoring and averaged 16.9 rebounds per game. Unseld averaged 13.8 pts per game and 18.2 rebounds but won MVP and Rookie of the year because basically his team finished in first place and Hayes S.D. Rockets were in the cellar. Crazy!!!!!! The MVP votes all went to Unseld, Billy Cunningham, Willis Reed and Russell.
 

jaytftwofive

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Jan 20, 2013
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NBA HoF player Wes Unseld has died.

View: https://twitter.com/WashWizards/status/1267813394003955714?s=20


Unseld is one of those players who always gets brought up when you talk about guys who stats didn't tell the whole story. Averaging 10 ppg and 14 rpg for your career won't put many players in the Hall of Fame, but Unseld excelled at various unselfish parts of the game. His outlet passing was the stuff of legend and triggered countless fast breaks, and his wall-like screens were the impetuous for half-court sets. At 6'7" he always played bigger than his size and banged around during an era that was absolutely loaded with premier big men, including Kareem, Wilt, Cowens, Reed, Walton, Lanier, McAdoo and more.

He is the only rookie to win the MVP award in NBA history, and he probably didn't deserve it. Reed and Russell were clearly better, and Billy Cunningham and Elgin Baylor had legit cases as well. However, as Bill Simmons wrote about in his book, there was something cool about rewarding a player who did all the little things well and a vote for Wes meant that you really knew your hoops, and didn't just vote based on whoever scored the most points or grabbed the most rebounds.

He was the MVP of '78 Finals and the best player on a championship team, even if Elvin Hayes put up bigger numbers.

It is crazy to think that out of all the NBA MVPs, only Wilt, Moses, Kobe and now Unseld are dead. It is amazing to see so many of the old NBA legends, dating back to Cousy and Pettit, still around.
Don't forget Rookie Elvin Hayes who led the league in scoring at 28.4 pts per game and averaged 16.9 rebounds per game.
 

Nator

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What's crazy is that the same year Elvin Hayes who was also a rookie averaged 28.4 pts per game, led the league in scoring and averaged 16.9 rebounds per game. Unseld averaged 13.8 pts per game and 18.2 rebounds but won MVP and Rookie of the year because basically his team finished in first place and Hayes S.D. Rockets were in the cellar. Crazy!!!!!! The MVP votes all went to Unseld, Billy Cunningham, Willis Reed and Russell.
I think the players voted on MVP back then, which made it more authentic. They would know better than writers.
 

jaytftwofive

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I just don't understand why Hayes didn't win one of the awards, or get any votes. He was clearly the better of the two IMO. Ironically they beacme teamates as we know.
 

Minneapolis Millers

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I just don't understand why Hayes didn't win one of the awards, or get any votes. He was clearly the better of the two IMO. Ironically they beacme teamates as we know.
Don’t remind me. My family moved to the DC area from MA in ‘77, as the Celts were, um, rebuilding, and the Bullets were winning.
 

jaytftwofive

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Don’t remind me. My family moved to the DC area from MA in ‘77, as the Celts were, um, rebuilding, and the Bullets were winning.
They beat us in 75 I remember in ECF. Then they were upset by the Warriors in Finals. Cost K.C. Jones his job and he shouldn't have been fired. That might have been their best team. Better then 69 and the 44 win tean that won it all in 78. They were always my second favorite team though.
 

reggiecleveland

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I just don't understand why Hayes didn't win one of the awards, or get any votes. He was clearly the better of the two IMO. Ironically they beacme teamates as we know.
First of all this isn't wasn't baseball. Putting up points on a bad team is not often respected, and certainly was seen less valuable. A guy hits 35 hr on a good or bad team pretty close to the same thing. A guy scoring 25 a game on a bad team vs a good team is big difference.

Second if you understand the situation, and thinking o the time it makes perfect sense.
A big part of it was how Unseld's d, rebounding and outlet passes transformed the teams fast break. The Bullets won 21 more games than the year before and was a first place team. This was a time when Bill Russell was considered the GOAT because he WON GAMES by triggering the fast break, along comes this kid and does it for Baltimore, and at outlet passing seems even better than Russell. It seemed the Celtics were dead for sure this time. That Baltimore team was super exciting. Earl Monroe, Loughery, and the aforementioned Gus Johnson was one of the first great power dunkers, breaking a board himself, more than a "a valuable player" was a monster. Center was THE position and this kid had made this team the beast in the east. Who gives a fuck if Elvin Hayes was putting up numbers on a 30 win team.

In retrospect he was perhaps the missing piece of the puzzle, more than a superstar, but that was the narrative at the time. Not much video of the "halfcourt before he hi the ground" outlet passes.

Looking back it is easy for us to see the Celtics dynasty as uninterrupted, but in 67 everyone thought Wilt and the SIxers ended them, then they somehow won in 68, but by 69 the Celts limped in at 4th place and looked ordinary to bad. Wilt went west, and it seemed Wes Unsled was the man on the best team in the east. Gus Johnson's injury may be the "Pete Carrol decides to throw on the 1" lucky break in the last Russell title run, since not sure Russ has much left in the tank to take on Wilt, if he had to fight Wes and Gus for every board for 7 games.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHcrG6gfJhI
 

reggiecleveland

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Tried to find video, but there weas a time while coaching the Bullets Wes objected to something Laimbier had done and went on the court to confromt Bill who moonwalked until Rick Mahorn got between them.
 

Kliq

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First of all this isn't wasn't baseball. Putting up points on a bad team is not often respected, and certainly was seen less valuable. A guy hits 35 hr on a good or bad team pretty close to the same thing. A guy scoring 25 a game on a bad team vs a good team is big difference.

Second if you understand the situation, and thinking o the time it makes perfect sense.
A big part of it was how Unseld's d, rebounding and outlet passes transformed the teams fast break. The Bullets won 21 more games than the year before and was a first place team. This was a time when Bill Russell was considered the GOAT because he WON GAMES by triggering the fast break, along comes this kid and does it for Baltimore, and at outlet passing seems even better than Russell. It seemed the Celtics were dead for sure this time. That Baltimore team was super exciting. Earl Monroe, Loughery, and the aforementioned Gus Johnson was one of the first great power dunkers, breaking a board himself, more than a "a valuable player" was a monster. Center was THE position and this kid had made this team the beast in the east. Who gives a fuck if Elvin Hayes was putting up numbers on a 30 win team.

In retrospect he was perhaps the missing piece of the puzzle, more than a superstar, but that was the narrative at the time. Not much video of the "halfcourt before he hi the ground" outlet passes.

Looking back it is easy for us to see the Celtics dynasty as uninterrupted, but in 67 everyone thought Wilt and the SIxers ended them, then they somehow won in 68, but by 69 the Celts limped in at 4th place and looked ordinary to bad. Wilt went west, and it seemed Wes Unsled was the man on the best team in the east. Gus Johnson's injury may be the "Pete Carrol decides to throw on the 1" lucky break in the last Russell title run, since not sure Russ has much left in the tank to take on Wilt, if he had to fight Wes and Gus for every board for 7 games.



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHcrG6gfJhI
Yeah, Hayes was an extremely talented player who also had a reputation for taking selfish shots and coming up short in the clutch. I'd say historically he is similar to Carmelo Anthony, or someone like that. He always said the greatest accomplishment in his career was winning a regular season game in college, so that pretty much explains it.

There is a famous story that in his final season, Hayes made a big show of saying he was going to mentor prized rookie Ralph Sampson, and Bill Fitch, who was coaching Houston by that point, went over to Sampson and said "You stay away from that no-good prick Elvin Hayes!"
 

128

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Yeah, Hayes was an extremely talented player who also had a reputation for taking selfish shots and coming up short in the clutch. I'd say historically he is similar to Carmelo Anthony, or someone like that.
I grew up in the D.C. area in the Unseld/Hayes era, and that's a fantastic comparison.
 

joe dokes

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Discussion of Unseld’s and Hayes’s RPG stats makes me wonder why RPG has dropped so much. Has league FG % changed that drastically? Are rebounds just more divided among multiple players now?

Quick and dirty. The most obvious external difference in the shooting game between now and 69-70 is the 3-pointer. So the bolded are a couple of possibilities suggesting more dispersal of rebounds. And non-statistically, it seems there are more players on each team these days that are willing and able to get rebounds from multiple positions on the floor, not just an Unseld and a Johnson.

Interesting trip down memory lane:

In 69-70. Only 13 player over 50%. League avg. 46%. (2pt only)
2018-19: 78 players over 50%. League avgs. 52% (2pt FG). 36% 3pt FG. Total is also 46% Do more 3 point misses create rebounds further away that the "big man" doesn't get?

2018-19 -- 89 FGA/game; 69-70 -- 99 fga/gm.

2018-19 --lg avg. 34.8 def rpg; 73-74 (1st yr. DefReb is listed separately) -- 33.5 def rpg
2018-19 -- 45.2 total RPG. 69-70 -- 53 total RPG; So overall there are fewer rebounds available. Have official scoring habits changed? Do more 3-pointers create more misses without official rebounds?

I remember being shocked at how guys I thought were great shooters as a kid, like Dave DeBusschere, was a 43% career shooter. Jerry Lucas, OTOH, who was almost strictly bombs-away by the time he got to the Knicks, shot 50%.

Cousy 37%
Heinsohn 41%
Guerin 42%
Sharman 43%
 

lexrageorge

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In 2018-19, there were 48 missed field goal attempts per game, and 5.2 missed free throw attempts per game. If we assume half(*) of the missed free throw attempts were eligible to be rebounded, that would translate to 50.6 rebound chances per game. So with teams averaging 44.9 rebounds per game, that works out to 88.7% of rebound opportunities actually collected.

In 1969-70, there were 53.7 missed FG attempts and 8.4 missed FT attempts per game. Same formula results in 57.9 rebound opportunities per game. With 52.9 rebounds per game, that translates to 91.3% of all rebound opportunities collected.

So there may be some truth to the fact that the 3 point shot results in somewhat fewer rebounds, as some of them do result in long rebounds that find their way out of bounds.

*: I'm not exactly sure how to determine the percentage of free throw misses eligible to be rebounded. Most free throw trips are two foul shots, so it makes sense that half of misses happen on the 2nd attempt. I am assuming deliberate misses are too infrequent to matter; same with flagrant fouls and technical fouls, neither of which are eligible to be rebounded. However, some free throw trips are one shot (the +1), and others now are three. IIRC, the NBA did have a "3 to make 2" back in the day, which does include 1969-70, but that was repealed in the early 80's. If anyone has any input on this calculation, I'd be interested in hear it. For now, I can only assume 50% for both eras.
 

Kliq

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The game also features larger, more athletic wing players that can credibly snag rebounds from the goliaths standing in the paint. In addition, as the game has transitioned into a more guard/wing orientated offense, the amount of post-ups and paint touches a big man gets is going to decline; instead they are used more as screeners, facilitators and floor-spacers, pulling them and their big-man defenders further away from the rim.
 

joe dokes

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Aren't misses that hit the floor not counted as rebounds for the retrieving player? I was thinking that aspect for 3 pointers, not necessarily going out of bounds. (It seems that 3 pointers do that more than 2s, but that's only a little more than guesswork.)
 

lexrageorge

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Aren't misses that hit the floor not counted as rebounds for the retrieving player? I was thinking that aspect for 3 pointers, not necessarily going out of bounds. (It seems that 3 pointers do that more than 2s, but that's only a little more than guesswork.)
I believe all recovered misses are considered rebounds; hitting the floor doesn't matter. Misses that go out of bounds or otherwise not recovered end up being counted in the team rebound statistic.
 
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Kliq

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On a related note, I've heard that a lot of league executives believe that individual rebounding numbers are really overrated and not worth much to teams, as opposed to overall team rebounding statistics. It explains the cool trade markets for players like Drummond and Whiteside, who put up big rebounding numbers but don't exactly win a lot of games.