Week 7: Pats/Jags - Breakfast at Wembley town

E5 Yaz

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Record isn't the issue, performance is. Even the worst team in the league can underperform in a loss, you can also overperform and still lose.
Agreed, the baseline should be overall professional competence ... and the eye test suggests they haven't reached that on a consistent basis
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Record isn't the issue, performance is. Even the worst team in the league can underperform in a loss, you can also overperform and still lose.
The others I get the petulant childlike crying when any play isn't executed to perfection but you are better than "trust me bro". Show the actual underperformance - there are tons of stats out there. Show me where the talent deficit can be mitigated by coaching ability and I will be right there with you. I am open to the idea but all I see is the Pats trying to compete with inferior talent. To me the first and primary solution is more talent on both sides of the ball.
 

Cellar-Door

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The others I get the petulant childlike crying when any play isn't executed to perfection but you are better than "trust me bro". Show the actual underperformance - there are tons of stats out there. Show me where the talent deficit can be mitigated by coaching ability and I will be right there with you. I am open to the idea but all I see is the Pats trying to compete with inferior talent. To me the first and primary solution is more talent on both sides of the ball.
I mean, I put some of it. This team is jsut not schemed well on D. I actually think people ARE overrating the offense, where I think talent/injuries are the bulk of the issue. The defense though.... I see them putting Tavai in coverage with no help... Bill never did that, and the results are obviously terrible. I see them running very few games up-front, and accordingly the pressure rate is terrible (someone had a stat in one of the threads about unblocked pressures and how last year they were one of the best, this year they are terrible). I see a consistent lack of edge contain, with guys like Uche and White ignoring their responsibilities on the edge. To me those are all coaching issues. Of course the first solution is more talent, that's always true, but I think the defensive coaching has been abysmal. Other things I've noticed... very rarely spy the QB... focus outside-in with coverages, which seems backwards. And they just never seem to have adjustments or week to week gameplans, it's just the same thing from start to finish every game.
 

ColdSoxPack

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But you don't need time to drive for that 2 point conversion. By going for 2, instead of the EP, and making it a 8 pt 1 score game, they made it a 2 score game, and that second drive (assuming they scored again and then stopped the Jags) will take time. It ( stop/score/stop/score) seemed highly unrealistic.

They made it a 2 score game and increased the difficulty of a comeback.

It was dumb.
Sounded like Reiss who just asked about the 2 point attempt. Mayo said he decided to go for 2 there rather than kick and try the 2 later because he wanted to try it with more time left on the clock.
 

JGray38

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I just see a team that doesn't have as many good players as most of their opponents - beyond that coaching may well be an issue but I can't honestly diagnose that from my basement.
There’s absolutely a talent deficit, but you can suck and not commit false start penalties. Backing up into 3rd and very long because of penalties is a killer, especially when you know Maye won’t have time. That’s the type of stuff that points to coaching.
 

Nator

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As much as the thought of just chucking a season away bothers me, this team was in no way, shape, or form winning much this season. Now they have key losses against Jacksonville and Miami in the race for a 1st overall pick.

This season is all about Maye developing into a good quarterback. He is wringing out every last drop of the scarce talent the pass catchers have on this team, and with the asset of a top 5 pick and a QB already in place, they can use that to upgrade other spots for the future.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I mean, I put some of it. This team is jsut not schemed well on D. I actually think people ARE overrating the offense, where I think talent/injuries are the bulk of the issue. The defense though.... I see them putting Tavai in coverage with no help... Bill never did that, and the results are obviously terrible. I see them running very few games up-front, and accordingly the pressure rate is terrible (someone had a stat in one of the threads about unblocked pressures and how last year they were one of the best, this year they are terrible). I see a consistent lack of edge contain, with guys like Uche and White ignoring their responsibilities on the edge. To me those are all coaching issues. Of course the first solution is more talent, that's always true, but I think the defensive coaching has been abysmal. Other things I've noticed... very rarely spy the QB... focus outside-in with coverages, which seems backwards. And they just never seem to have adjustments or week to week gameplans, it's just the same thing from start to finish every game.
Thank you - these may well be right. Is the Tavai thing the coaching staff trying to solve some other problem? The edge contain stuff feels more talent than coaching but I dont have enough info to make that argument.

Look, I dont have pictures of Mayo or AVP or any of these guys on my wall. My default assumption is that they are likely replacement level. What I am not doing is joining the pitchfork & torch crowd - many of whom seem to have unrealistic expectations about how this season should look - when its clear that if coaching is a problem, its not the only problem. And much as we are all great analysts here on SoSH, the primary driver in winning is talent. This team just doesn't have a lot of talent and certainly not at the high leverage/skill positions.

They were manhandled on the DL today and while some of that is coaching, most of that was just bigger faster athletes beating smaller, weaker ones.
 

BusRaker

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They were manhandled on the DL today and while some of that is coaching, most of that was just bigger faster athletes beating smaller, weaker ones.
I guess when your strength and conditioning coach got his cush job from his brother that happens.
I thought the same thing about Steve B but I guess at some point I was proven wrong. Hope that is the case this time as well.
 

Cellar-Door

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Thank you - these may well be right. Is the Tavai thing the coaching staff trying to solve some other problem? The edge contain stuff feels more talent than coaching but I dont have enough info to make that argument.

Look, I dont have pictures of Mayo or AVP or any of these guys on my wall. My default assumption is that they are likely replacement level. What I am not doing is joining the pitchfork & torch crowd - many of whom seem to have unrealistic expectations about how this season should look - when its clear that if coaching is a problem, its not the only problem. And much as we are all great analysts here on SoSH, the primary driver in winning is talent. This team just doesn't have a lot of talent and certainly not at the high leverage/skill positions.

They were manhandled on the DL today and while some of that is coaching, most of that was just bigger faster athletes beating smaller, weaker ones.
I know earlier in the year Godchaux was complaing about guys not doing their job. It was taken by most as a direct shot at Uche and White who were abandoning the edge contain to chase sacks.
Jennings being out hurts, he's one of the best edge run defenders in the league. In terms of the DL... a lot of these guys were starters on last year's team that was one of the best run defending teams in the league, other than Uche these guys are all supposed to be run stuffers.

I agree, the talent is not great, especially with Jennings and Bentley out. But I think it's clear that one of the big differences this year is coaching on D. Now maybe you could say that it's more that Bill and Steve caused a major OVERachievement, but to me... last year's defense was hurt a lot, they finished top 5-7 depending who you like as a measurement tool... this year's team is in the low 20s, I don't think it's just injuries, I think they are really easy to play against because they are predictable and not able to scheme fixes in-game.
 

sezwho

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Ok so what should their record be by your estimation? And please use data to make the argument - I used objectively very deliberately.
I’d see their record should objectively be one and six. I think the leadership inherited a wretched team and then many of the even moderately capable players get injured.

Wolfs non qb picks didn’t turn up (yet?) and the roster is effectively a shit sandwich. It’s really hard to evaluate the coaching right now, but Wolf is on the plank.

I don’t think he was mayos pick by any stretch and it’s quite possible the lingering stench on this roster turns out to be from him. Very short leash over there. Long leash for mayo, who is effectively a rookie QB himself.

I think I’m agreeing with you, fwiw
 

BusRaker

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Are you really arguing that the line got pushed back because a bad strength and conditioning coach? Not sure if serious...
Semi-serious, I'm sure if they had Scar teaching them balance and footwork it would help as well but all of the dancing isn't going to help if you don't have the force to apply it with. Some of it has to do with depth, a key focus on BB's teams was to be great from 1-53 and I don't see the replacement players as being as effective as they were in the past,
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Semi-serious, I'm sure if they had Scar teaching them balance and footwork it would help as well but all of the dancing isn't going to help if you don't have the force to apply it with. Some of it has to do with depth, a key focus on BB's teams was to be great from 1-53 and I don't see the replacement players as being as effective as they were in the past,
As a thought exercise, do you really think that Scar - working with, say, league average D linemen (IIRC he only worked on the OL) could beat a league average coach with a line of all pro offensive linemen? My point is that you can only coach a person so much. At some point, that person has to beat another human being and there isn't much you can do if they simply arent physically capable.

To me, the problems with this team start and end with capability. The Jags OL was clearly more talented than the Pats defense - at least today.
 

BusRaker

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As a thought exercise, do you really think that Scar - working with, say, league average D linemen (IIRC he only worked on the OL) could beat a league average coach with a line of all pro offensive linemen? My point is that you can only coach a person so much. At some point, that person has to beat another human being and there isn't much you can do if they simply arent physically capable.

To me, the problems with this team start and end with capability. The Jags OL was clearly more talented than the Pats defense - at least today.
We have a lot of agreement here. Are they not capable because of training, genetics, work-ethic, football intelligence? Do you coach raw talent or bulk up exising talent? Sorry, quite a lot of theory for a collision sport :) Maybe another thread ...
 

RG33

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My son said it’s mostly Americans, and judging by the jerseys, most aren’t fans of either team in particular.
That actually wasn’t my experience. Almost everyone we met / talked to were Brits, and there were a lot of Jags fans. There were definitely a lot of Pats fans overall, and many around us were Brits — it is just a different thing. As a guy at at bar said last night, “for a Brit, the game is too long, too slow, and too quiet”, and obviously he was comparing it to their experience with futbol — which made total sense after having gone to an EPL match. I can’t imagine having grown up with that, and then going to an NFL or MLB game and being super passionate about it. Just a totally different environment.
 

Harry Hooper

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Shouldn't have eaten the eel pie yesterday.

Well, close anyway, per MassLive:

The Patriots No. 1 receiver felt ill in the early morning hours before kickoff at Wembley Stadium. That’s when he started to vomit. Douglas wasn’t with his teammates during pregame warmup and the start of the game. The receiver was only a limited participant on Sunday.

After the game, Douglas said he didn’t want to go into detail, but thought he had issues after eating food in London on Saturday. His teammates said it was impressive that he tried to gut it out.