Wayne Gretzky (a question, he’s still not dead)

Red Right Ankle

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While technically true Jagr joined after what, 5 seasons? He had Coffey for 4. Recchi for 2 full. Mullen for 3. Not really the same as the career teammates Wayne had. People underestimate how bad those early year Lemieux teams were. Brick was there the 2 years pre-Mario and will occasionally talk about how bad they were. They won 16 games in 83-84. Putrid.
Yeah, no doubt he didn't have the level of supporting cast Gretzky did, but he had some great teammates during the 90s. Although in his best statistical season, he had Coffey, the aforementioned Brown, Dan Quinn and nothing else (ZARLEY ZALAPSKI BABY!).
 

Nator

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I think both of these ignore the fact that Howe was a dominant player in his day. His career totals were certainly helped by his longevity, but in his prime he was the best player of his era (mid-1950's). Ryan is indeed closer, in that he did lead the league in ERA+ for two seasons, and was often near the top in others. But there is no way I would ever use Gordie Howe and Don Sutton in the same sentence after this one is complete.
Ryan is a better comp, I have to agree. I use Don Sutton when I argue with a friend of mine when he says Howe should be higher on the list than Orr. He's a Canadian, so I am not sure how he gets away with such blasphemy.
 

joe dokes

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Ryan is a better comp, I have to agree. I use Don Sutton when I argue with a friend of mine when he says Howe should be higher on the list than Orr. He's a Canadian, so I am not sure how he gets away with such blasphemy.
And to be clear, I think Howe was a better hockey player than Ryan was a baseball player.
 

Bozo Texino

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This thread reminds me of my favorite piece of NHL trivia (which is saying a lot).

From 1980-81 to 2000-01 (TWENTY ONE SEASONS)...only 3 people led the NHL in scoring. Ridiculous consistency of the 3 best forwards of the 80s/90s.
Does Eric Lindros mean NOTHING to you?
 

TFP

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He was a scoring leader in that time period, though. Tied Jagr for 70 goals during the shortened 1994-1995 season.
It's referring to points leader/Art Ross Trophy winner, not goals. Gretzky/Lemieux/Jagr only for over 2 decades.
 

veritas

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I don't have much to add fact-wise. I think there are valid arguments to be made about who was better at their peak, but if you're talking about the best player ever, Gretzky was just too good for too long to allow anyone else in that conversation, IMO. He was an elite player for so much longer than the other two (Orr and Lemieux). It's a shame they couldn't have played full careers.

Totally agree with cshea on Ovi too, he's the best goal scorer of all time.
 

Bozo Texino

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It's referring to points leader/Art Ross Trophy winner, not goals. Gretzky/Lemieux/Jagr only for over 2 decades.
Sorry - Jagr and Lindros both had 70 POINTS during that shortened season. My mistake.

That said, Jagr won the Art Ross Trophy because he scored more goals than Lindros.
 

wiffleballhero

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I use Don Sutton when I argue with a friend of mine when he says Howe should be higher on the list than Orr.

The baseball comp for Gordie Howe is probably Hank Aaron -- played forever, some seasons of clear dominance, absolutely in the top tier in the history of the game, but longevity is a meaningfully large part of the legacy.
 

FL4WL3SS

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It's cool. Lindros has probably forgotten too.
This deserves some love, well done sir.

I've said this before and I think so have others. Gretzky is the greatest offensive player of all time and will never be touched. Orr is the greatest hockey player of all time and it's not close. You can watch over and over highlights of Orr making spectacular play on defense and turn it into a goal at the other end all on his own. Orr was the puppet master on the ice, he did what he wanted all over the ice.
 

snowmanny

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There is nothing in hockey like the way Gretzky dominated from 1981 to 1987. It's shocking. He's the greatest hockey player of all time, to me. Orr and Lemieux arguments just seem like things that people want to say to pull the reins back on the obvious. The second highest scoring player in the league for like six years in a row had barely 2/3s of Gretzky's scoring. That's just fucking crazy. I think I read that if you take the lowest number of points that Gretzky lead the league by during that period -- around 65 or so -- nobody in NHL history has ever even led the league by half that in a single year.

I think there's also a myth that Gretzky piled up points that others didn't because he was given an assist just for being on the ice. I haven't tried to google research it, but my understanding that has been de-bunked like the AFC East fallacy. And I also think I remember reading some research that the vast majority of Gretzky's assists were primary not secondary assists -- to a greater percentage than many other hockey greats.

Anyway, whether or not that's true, I don't dispute that the nature of the game at the time Gretzky played was highly suited to his specific strengths. But that's not an argument against calling him the hands down greatest of all time. Every player plays under the conditions they play under. I love hockey -- it's my favorite sport to attend. And I love the 2019 version. But in many senses it's more boring than hockey was in 1980, because it has become much more analytical. Even putting aside the rules changes, there's a sameness to the game now. By and large, the angles are understood. Leverage is understood. Plays look the same. There's still a ton of creativity in the game, but it's all within this very common and similar kind of defensive posture and framework. Yeah, some teams are better than others at execution, but absent the 3 on 3 stuff in OT, you know what the game is going to look like. You know what the shape of the teams is going to be.

Like if a guy sneaks off the boards and takes a back door pass for a tap in today, the commentary is likely to be how the defense screwed that up and how it should never happen. In Gretzky's day, this play would have made Don Cherry fall of his chair with glee.

So, I think what Gretzky had that has really not been seen before in the game, is, to use chess as an analogy, the ability to see more moves ahead than anyone else. There was more discretion in hockey in 1980s, and a game with discretion is where he was king, because he just knew what was going to happen on the ice better than anyone else. He almost always did the right thing with the puck. He knew the odds. He knew which guy was better to pass to, and when the best option to shoot was. He was a constant WPA calculator on skates and he played the game in a way that made it look like he had ESP.
Just saying that I found this post informative and interesting, and I think that a lot of the points you make are applicable to other sports. For example, in most instances I can't watch someone make a 15 foot jumper without thinking "that was dumb."
 

Spacemans Bong

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The baseball comp for Gordie Howe is probably Hank Aaron -- played forever, some seasons of clear dominance, absolutely in the top tier in the history of the game, but longevity is a meaningfully large part of the legacy.
I don’t even agree with that. Howe has six scoring titles and six Hart Trophies. He was a first team All-Star 12 times.

Aaron has one MVP award and deserved one - Mays was a consistently better player than him (not that the writers gave Mays the award unless they had to, some of the contortions they underwent to avoid giving it to Willie boggle the mind).

Howe was the best player of the 50s, bar none, was probably one of the five best players of the 60s, and then continued to be a pretty good but not remarkable player (taking into account the WHA’s talent level) until he was 50. Hell, even at 51 in a reunified NHL the guy had a 16% shot percentage. That’s comparable to Kings-era Gretzky.

The only true comparison to Howe is Stanley Matthews, but in terms of American sports it’s gotta be Kareem but likeable. The dude just lasted forever while still having a remarkable peak.
 

Dummy Hoy

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I like the article but even the article admits that his point totals were a partially a result of the era. The argument, and it’s a good one, is that his dominance over his peers playing in the same era is what demonstrates his greatness; the absurd totals are era dependent. Gretzky ain’t getting 120 assists in 1995 or whenever.
 

reggiecleveland

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I really hated Gretzky. Living in Canada at that time, pre internet, pre satellite TV, you just got sick of him. I remember being at the grocery store once and he was on the cover of 7 magazines at once. Orr was my childhood hero, and remains a godlike figure in my eyes. Plus he beat the Bruins a couple of times.

But, he was incredible. I mean he set the records for goals, and as for his skills he wasn't really good a scoring goals compared to playmaking. He was great at a very young age. My son is doing fantasy basketball and I told him this the other day, that in the version of fantasy sports in Canada, the hockey draft, at his peak Gretzky ruined them. The guy that won the draw and drafted him had a 50 point edge right off the go. Most leagues banned him from being picked, or made 50% Gretzky s pick that would go early. It was still a 100 points.

Sure the era mattered, and his team was stacked, but he was incredible.

Two best things about him"
1. Playing with Lemieux vs the Soviets in 87. Imagine if Bird and Magic had a worthy challenger in a series and played together in 1986.
2. The legion of bandwagon Oler fans that had to suffer the last 30 years. In Canada switching your NHL allegiance can cost your citizenship. So me, and other fans of other teams have held all the guys that jumped on the bandwagon (actually saw a guy get his Kings jersey ripped off his back when he tried to switch) in the early 80s stay with the Oil.