Vazquez: Sexiest in MLB

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
2,935
Last edited:

Over Guapo Grande

panty merchant
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2005
2,207
Worcester
This is just me, but anything authored by Tomase is a "skip"

I am still waiting for the first article that he writes something releveant (and true)
 

brandonchristensen

mad photochops
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2012
28,106
But also one of the best? https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/christian-vazquez-feels-sexy-and-might-be-best-catcher-baseball?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs
Do you all think Chaim and Co. should consider a long term extension? He's got to be mentioned in the upper echelon of Catchers and is relatively still quite young and healthy...
He definitely seems to be taking huge steps offensively. His power numbers since 2019 are nuts. Last year he was on pace for 20ish again. And this year he's shown up huge already.

I think it's worth it. We have no one waiting in the wings. Give him 3-4 years.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
Yasmani Grandal and Salvador Perez each got $18-20M per year for 4-year deals covering their age 31-34 seasons. The Sox have a club option for 2022, which will be CV’s age-31 season.

The Red Sox of 2023 and beyond will be completely different than the current squad, but based on the current dearth of talent in the high minors, it’s likely that most of the players on the 2023 squad will be guys we signed at market rates. And while the Sox will spend what it takes to compete, their player budget will of course be finite, as it always has been. In that context, overpaying for CV’s age 32-35 seasons isn’t likely to be a good use of resources. Obviously, it’s a different story if he’s willing to take a steep discount for an early extension, but those cases seem to be increasingly the exception to the rule.
 
Last edited:

Red(s)HawksFan

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
13,902
Maine
Yasmani Grandal and Salvador Perez each got $18-20M per year for 4-year deals covering their age 31-34 seasons. The Sox have a club option for 2022, which will be CV’s age-31 season.

The Red Sox of 2023 and beyond will be completely different than the current squad, but based on the current dearth of talent in the high minors, it’s likely that most of the players on the 2023 squad will be guys we signed at market rates. And while the Sox will spend what it takes to compete, their player budget will of course be finite, as it always has been. In that context, overpaying for CV’s age 32-35 seasons isn’t likely to be a good use of resources.
Not sure it's a foregone conclusion that most of the roster in 2023 will be market rate. Not if most or all of Casas, Cordero, Dalbec, Devers, Downs, Duran, and Verdugo are all regulars in the lineup. Of course, there's also the possibility of other young players being acquired via trade between now and then. Vazquez seems like the right player to extend through age 35 or so, particularly if he keeps progressing along what we could call the Yadi Molina trajectory.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
Not sure it's a foregone conclusion that most of the roster in 2023 will be market rate. Not if most or all of Casas, Cordero, Dalbec, Devers, Downs, Duran, and Verdugo are all regulars in the lineup. Of course, there's also the possibility of other young players being acquired via trade between now and then. Vazquez seems like the right player to extend through age 35 or so, particularly if he keeps progressing along what we could call the Yadi Molina trajectory.
Verdugo is obviously a terrific cost-controlled asset. And Devers isn’t a free agent until after the 2024 season, which is a year later than I had thought — he’ll still be here and earning a below-market salary in 2023. But the rest of your list isn’t as inspiring to me as it is to you. Downs has played 12 games above A-ball. That’s 12 more than Casas has played. Duran hit 250/309/325 in AA in 2019. Cordero and Dalbec have shown flashes but still need to prove they are real major-league regulars. Maybe one or two of those guys are solid contributors in 2023, but all of them won’t be. I stand by my prediction that most of the 2023 team will be guys signed at market rates.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
13,902
Maine
Verdugo is obviously a terrific cost-controlled asset. And Devers isn’t a free agent until after the 2024 season, which is a year later than I had thought — he’ll still be here and earning a below-market salary in 2023. But the rest of your list isn’t as inspiring to me as it is to you. Downs has played 12 games above A-ball. That’s 12 more than Casas has played. Duran hit 250/309/325 in AA in 2019. Cordero and Dalbec have shown flashes but still need to prove they are real major-league regulars. Maybe one or two of those guys are solid contributors in 2023, but all of them won’t be. I stand by my prediction that most of the 2023 team will be guys signed at market rates.
I wasn't trying to say that all of those prospects are going to be great, but if some of those guys I listed (or some other players with less than five years service time) aren't contributing as regulars, this team is in massive amounts of trouble. They can't afford to field a team of mostly market rate players. No team really can, at least not for long. Unless the CBA changes so that the penalties for exceeding the luxury tax are less, of course.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
I wasn't trying to say that all of those prospects are going to be great, but if some of those guys I listed (or some other players with less than five years service time) aren't contributing as regulars, this team is in massive amounts of trouble. They can't afford to field a team of mostly market rate players. No team really can, at least not for long. Unless the CBA changes so that the penalties for exceeding the luxury tax are less, of course.
“Massive amounts of trouble” might be overstating it, but I’m more bearish than you on the medium-term outlook. They’ll have tons of money to spend, but they’re going to need almost everything.

But the real issue is whether you think the market for top-10 catchers is reasonable. I have trouble wrapping my head around paying CV $20M a year into his mid-30s, but maybe I’m being a dinosaur.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
40,808
This is a pretty easy pass from me. Just because he is a late bloomer doesn't mean he will sustain it later than the average player. He has only cracked 100 starts at C once whereas guys like Grandal/Perez/Yadi proved it over many seasons. Theoretically, maybe it means he has less wear and tear on his legs/body, but when there is no track record of sustainability, I don't know how you pay a guy like that $20+ million into his mid-30s. I think, as a team, you are thrilled you have the club option, let it play out, and enjoy the ride.
 

Marbleheader

Dope
Dope
Sep 27, 2004
10,649
There's also very real possibility that the Red Sox draft a catcher at #4 overall this year. Even if they don't, it seems more likely that they would try to deal him to help restock the system than to extend him.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
68,245
Oregon
A good, still relatively cheap, catcher is a prime commodity at the trade deadline for those with actual playoff aspirations. I'd like to see what the market would pay, rather than count on him as a cornerstone for the rebuild
 

brandonchristensen

mad photochops
SoSH Member
Feb 4, 2012
28,106
This is a pretty easy pass from me. Just because he is a late bloomer doesn't mean he will sustain it later than the average player. He has only cracked 100 starts at C once whereas guys like Grandal/Perez/Yadi proved it over many seasons. Theoretically, maybe it means he has less wear and tear on his legs/body, but when there is no track record of sustainability, I don't know how you pay a guy like that $20+ million into his mid-30s. I think, as a team, you are thrilled you have the club option, let it play out, and enjoy the ride.
Oh shit are we talking about 20M/year? If that’s the case - EASY PASS.

I was assuming sub 10M.
 

chawson

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
2,099
I’d also probably pass on a Vaz extension, which will probably be pricey after he signed a team-friendly one. We had a thread like this last year too when he started 8-20 with 4 HRs, and then he went .220/.284/.260 over the next five weeks.

His decent hitting stats the last few years belie the fact that he posts some of the lowest exit velocities in baseball but he’s truly hitting the ball harder this year (over six games). He’s valuable and seems appreciated by the staff, but I bet Bloom can get someone interesting for him and that Ronaldo and/or Wong will work out.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
2,935
This is a pretty easy pass from me. Just because he is a late bloomer doesn't mean he will sustain it later than the average player. He has only cracked 100 starts at C once whereas guys like Grandal/Perez/Yadi proved it over many seasons. Theoretically, maybe it means he has less wear and tear on his legs/body, but when there is no track record of sustainability, I don't know how you pay a guy like that $20+ million into his mid-30s. I think, as a team, you are thrilled you have the club option, let it play out, and enjoy the ride.
I think this is to extend his career and in theory for him to keep playing into his mid 30's at least 100 games per year behind the dish with the occasional DH (good move Cora!) when his bat is on fire.
What would be a reasonable deal to extend him if they offer to buy out his remaining 2022 salary? Would 5 years at $15M per do it? I can imagine another team offering him more per season, but not more than 3 years and after that 3 year contract is up, I couldn't imagine him getting anything close to $10M per.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
19,744
Newton
His decent hitting stats the last few years belie the fact that he posts some of the lowest exit velocities in baseball
This is hard for me to square with the fact that every time I see him hit a HR it is an absolute bomb.

The Vaz Difference, as it were, has always been sort of tricky to figure out. He came up as a defensive whiz with quick hands that may or may not translate him into a decent hitter. Instead, he became a better hitter than expected and perhaps a bit less of a defensive mastermind post Tommy John than was predicted for him.

In 2018, in what should have been his breakout year, he had trouble calling games and a number of really boneheaded defensive moments—almost as if there was something mental going on—before being put on the DL for much of the stretch run. This left Leon catching almost everyday for three months and going from a terrible hitter to a historically terrible hitter. Vaz came back for the postseason and put up serviceable numbers.

Then in 2019, in a year that literally
every other offensive player on the Red Sox roster regressed, he was a bright spot, playing 138 games and hitting 23 home runs.

All of which is to say, I’m not sure what they should do with him but Vaz has had kind of an odd career trajectory.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
I think this is to extend his career and in theory for him to keep playing into his mid 30's at least 100 games per year behind the dish with the occasional DH (good move Cora!) when his bat is on fire.
What would be a reasonable deal to extend him if they offer to buy out his remaining 2022 salary? Would 5 years at $15M per do it? I can imagine another team offering him more per season, but not more than 3 years and after that 3 year contract is up, I couldn't imagine him getting anything close to $10M per.
Assuming CV doesn’t have a Dwight Evans-style emergence in his 30s, I think 4/80, or more or less what Sal Perez got, represents a reasonable best case for CV — he’ll be a year older than Perez, but Perez didn’t test the market. So that works out to 5/87 with the option year tacked on.

I could certainly see CV accepting 5/75 right now. But in addition to the obvious risk of being on the hook to overpay a washed-up or injured CV, such an extension would also count as an extra $8m in 2022 payroll for CBT purposes (compared to picking up the existing option). The 2022 Sox will still have lots of unfavorable DD-era contractual commitments and only limited flexibility to add talent. The practical impact of extending CV is probably that next year’s equivalent to the Enrique Hernandez signing doesn’t happen. I wouldn’t accept that to lock up CV long-term unless he took a huge discount. Reasonable opinion, of course, can differ.
 
Last edited:

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
7,757
The Red Sox of 2023 and beyond will be completely different than the current squad, but based on the current dearth of talent in the high minors, it’s likely that most of the players on the 2023 squad will be guys we signed at market rates. And while the Sox will spend what it takes to compete, their player budget will of course be finite, as it always has been. In that context, overpaying for CV’s age 32-35 seasons isn’t likely to be a good use of resources. Obviously, it’s a different story if he’s willing to take a steep discount for an early extension, but those cases seem to be increasingly the exception to the rule.
If the 2023-and-beyond Sox are a team constructed of players signed at market rates, then Chaim Bloom will have failed completely. Reasonable people may disagree on where exactly the Boston farm system is ranked relative to its MLB peers, but there are definitely players currently in the system who have value. It's Bloom's job to discern which ones have a realistic chance be part of the 'next great Red Sox team' and which ones should be flipped to other teams in exchange for assets while their value is still high and not be left to rot on the vine the way previous GM's did with youngsters like Michael Bowden, Lars Anderson and Blake Swihart.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
If the 2023-and-beyond Sox are a team constructed of players signed at market rates, then Chaim Bloom will have failed completely. Reasonable people may disagree on where exactly the Boston farm system is ranked relative to its MLB peers, but there are definitely players currently in the system who have value. It's Bloom's job to discern which ones have a realistic chance be part of the 'next great Red Sox team' and which ones should be flipped to other teams in exchange for assets while their value is still high and not be left to rot on the vine the way previous GM's did with youngsters like Michael Bowden, Lars Anderson and Blake Swihart.
2023 is only two years from now. I don’t think he can fix the farm that quickly — the gap between the smart teams and the dumb ones isn’t what it was when Theo Epstein rebuilt the farm in the early-mid 2000s, and Theo used the Sox’ financial resources to do that in ways that are no longer allowed.

I think it’s reasonable to expect CB to build a talent pipeline that is feeding the big club by 2025, but that leaves a couple seasons where the bad DD-era contracts will be gone but the Sox will still be pinched by the sheer number of holes that need to be filled through free agency. The good news is that if the pipeline is shaping up well by 2023, JWH will probably write big CBT checks for a couple years to allow the team to bridge the gap until the young talent arrives. Even so, however, resources will be finite, so CB needs to take great care in making financial commitments that extend into that time.
 

sean1562

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 17, 2011
3,159
I think Bloom's roster construction MO might be to avoid paying market rates for all but the very top shelf players and build a pitching staff out of underutilized/undervalued pitchers. Tampa's staff is filled with nobodies they acquired in the last year or two that play significant roles on that team. But I do agree that we will need to spend some money on starting pitching considering ERod and Perez are FAs after this season.
 

nvalvo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
17,944
Rogers Park
2023 is only two years from now. I don’t think he can fix the farm that quickly — the gap between the smart teams and the dumb ones isn’t what it was when Theo Epstein rebuilt the farm in the early-mid 2000s, and Theo used the Sox’ financial resources to do that in ways that are no longer allowed.

I think it’s reasonable to expect CB to build a talent pipeline that is feeding the big club by 2025, but that leaves a couple seasons where the bad DD-era contracts will be gone but the Sox will still be pinched by the sheer number of holes that need to be filled through free agency. The good news is that if the pipeline is shaping up well by 2023, JWH will probably write big CBT checks for a couple years to allow the team to bridge the gap until the young talent arrives. Even so, however, resources will be finite, so CB needs to take great care in making financial commitments that extend into that time.
A lot depends on whether we're buyers or sellers at the deadline. Bloom took the farm a long way in just a few trades, all of which yielded big value and we don't even know all the parts on the last one yet.
  • Betts brought Verdugo to the big club, and Wong and Downs (the real centerpiece IMO). We gave up legitimate value, of course.
  • The Hembree/Workman trade was an absolute heist, bringing in Pivetta for the big club and Seabold to the farm.
  • The Benintendi trade brought in Franchy for the big club, and Winckowski and 2 PTBNLs for the farm.
  • Moreland brought in Rosario and Potts.
So since Bloom took over, just via trade (which leaves out the weird draft and the apparent triumph taking Whitlock in Rule V), has added the our SoxProspects #2 (Downs), #9 (Seabold), #17 (Rosario), #19 (Potts), #25 (Wong), and #33 (Winckowski), and a pair of PTBNLs. All of these guys look to be potential big league contributors/role players. Downs looks like a starting middle infielder with power, Seabold looks like a #4/5 starter, Wong could be a backup catcher or super utility guy with potential for more, and Winckowski looks like SP depth pending the development of his off speed pitches, which sound like they have a ways to go — still, he throws 97 as a starter, which is a good starting point. Potts is a high ceiling/no floor guy due to his huge power and equally-huge strikeout rate, and Rosario has strong fourth OF potential bringing speed, defense and on-base skills as carrying tools. The point I am trying to make is that very few of these people are just organizational guys: they are all easy to see helping the major league team, even if you need to project Winckowski improving his changeup or Potts making a bit more contact to see that happen.

If the team contends this year, then awesome: that likely means that we've found some useful pieces for the future in Pivetta, Dalbec, Arroyo, and a couple of the bullpen guys. If the team is out of contention by mid-season, then we have a lot of potential inventory for the trade market in whichever of our veterans on short-term contracts are performing well: Barnes, Ottavino, Martínez, Hernández, González, Eovaldi, Richards, Perez, Renfroe, Rodriguez, perhaps even Vazquez.

You could easily imagine us dealing, say, JD, Eovaldi, Marwin, and Renfroe in various deals for a similar haul to that just mentioned, and calling up Downs, Duran, Houck and Chavis in the second half.