USMNT Summer 2024: Beauty is in the Eye of the Berhalter
- Thread starter rguilmar
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My general take is...
Is he currently employed at a top 75 club?
Has he managed a top 25 club in the last decade?
Is he under 60 and managed any top 150 club in the last 3 years?
If the answer to any of those is yes he's not interested
Edit-guys over 60 might do it if they are looking for a step back in terms of commitment for less than 2 years and already missed this club hiring cycle
Is he currently employed at a top 75 club?
Has he managed a top 25 club in the last decade?
Is he under 60 and managed any top 150 club in the last 3 years?
If the answer to any of those is yes he's not interested
Edit-guys over 60 might do it if they are looking for a step back in terms of commitment for less than 2 years and already missed this club hiring cycle
In truth I think Pellegrini is doing too good a job and is likely too good for this job. Just using him as an example of an old timer who might like the lesser workload. If it’s a current club manager it’s going to be one of those types, that’s essentially my point.
I would still prefer someone with a good amount of international experience over a club manager. Just a different job and knowing how to comb through a pool and plan camps is probably more important at this point. Really isn’t time for a club guy to learn on the job
The fixation on Hervé Renard is a little funny to me. I think it's in large part because he got famous for the insanely fluky win over Argentina.
But that doesn't mean he's a bad candidate! The dude won AFCON with Zambia, and then later with Ivory Coast, which IMO are significantly more impressive accomplishments than getting lucky in one game in 2022.
I feel like the support for him is because it's difficult to come up with a tangible list of realistic, mid-tier foreign candidates unless you're actually Matt Crocker making the calls and seeing who is interested. He's like a stand-in for the concept of hiring an effective but not especially famous or club-elite foreign manager.
But that doesn't mean he's a bad candidate! The dude won AFCON with Zambia, and then later with Ivory Coast, which IMO are significantly more impressive accomplishments than getting lucky in one game in 2022.
I feel like the support for him is because it's difficult to come up with a tangible list of realistic, mid-tier foreign candidates unless you're actually Matt Crocker making the calls and seeing who is interested. He's like a stand-in for the concept of hiring an effective but not especially famous or club-elite foreign manager.
Speaking of Renard, sounds like he’s asking for a huge salary and he’s got interest from Al Ittihad to leverage.
View: https://twitter.com/andrew_s04_/status/1811477284349423747?s=46&t=GfuLFvTYcOxcFiCZjyIYZw
View: https://twitter.com/andrew_s04_/status/1811477284349423747?s=46&t=GfuLFvTYcOxcFiCZjyIYZw
I think the Renard being on most every list kind of comes down to:
1. He answers all the first level questions:
Would he be willing to take a National Team Job
Would he be willing to take a National Team Salary
Does he have experience managing a nation
Has he been successful in multiple different setups
Does he have experience
Is he available (ie either unemployed or reaching end of contract)
2. Connected people have leaked he's on the USMNT short list
3. Yeah, people remember the SA win over Argentina, and also the videos of his halftime speech.
4. He's youngish, handsome, well dressed
He is kind of the rare bird... available, lots of experience and good success, and no adaptation.
I do find it a little weird he's on every list and Quieroz is on almost none, but I assume 2-4 above is the answer to that.
Yeah I think the stand-in thing is right, or it is for me at least. I’m not overly familiar with the managers around the world, especially outside the big club ranks. Just want some truly fresh blood with experience who can bring something different to the program and won’t be learning on the job.The fixation on Hervé Renard is a little funny to me. I think it's in large part because he got famous for the insanely fluky win over Argentina.
But that doesn't mean he's a bad candidate! The dude won AFCON with Zambia, and then later with Ivory Coast, which IMO are significantly more impressive accomplishments than getting lucky in one game in 2022.
I feel like the support for him is because it's difficult to come up with a tangible list of realistic, mid-tier foreign candidates unless you're actually Matt Crocker making the calls and seeing who is interested. He's like a stand-in for the concept of hiring an effective but not especially famous or club-elite foreign manager.
Re: Quieroz, his perfect 12-12 record with the New York/New Jersey MetroStars does check the “Mediocre MLS stint” box quite well.
Oh people would HATE Queiroz btw, he plays some of the least fun tactics the world has ever seen and he's pure mercenary.... but his results are pretty good. Portugal U-20, built Iran into a regional powerhouse (then returned), honestly even his last stop in Qatar he got fired less because he underachieved with a terrible team than allegedly a personality clash. Colombia was a disaster and Egypt a disappointment. He won't be on the list, but I did find it interesting even the lists that are like 15-20 managers deep and throwing out managers who being mediocre in MLS is all they have ever done.... still no QUeiroz.
Renard swooping in months before WC ‘23 to salvage France’s chances is a more intense version of what he’d be tasked to do here. So he’s got some recent, directly relevant experience. I’d say France underperformed at the WC relative to their talent, but did much better than they were on track to do before he came in as a fixer.
Which makes this Olympics a better assessment of his work with the French squad. It’s much more his team now and they should make a push for gold, silver or bronze would be meeting expectations. With small rosters and a condensed, abbreviated schedule, the Olympics can be a wild tournament. But France has the talent to win.
Which makes this Olympics a better assessment of his work with the French squad. It’s much more his team now and they should make a push for gold, silver or bronze would be meeting expectations. With small rosters and a condensed, abbreviated schedule, the Olympics can be a wild tournament. But France has the talent to win.
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This also reminds me that the managerial search is not the only current topic with the USMNT. Another is: where, when and whom are they going to play? And if Crocker and Cone are worth their salt, they are ankle-deep right now in trying to gin up an 8- or 12-team national-team tournament next summer. FIFA would bless the fuck out of it if it doesn't conflict with the club world cup (or overlaps just a little, but doesn't have a ton of players that would be pulling double duty). Something, anything more than just a couple friendlies. Call it the HeBelieves Cup for all I care, but just give teams something to get competitive over.
Agree - the quality of opponents is going to be a problem for a new manager prepping this squad. The Copa was the last high intensity run out for the US, Mexico, Canada.
Who is available for the He Believes Cup? (Great name, btw.). A quick look shows that only Eritrea, who preemptively withdrew from qualifiers, is not involved in their continental process.
What was actually supposed to happen for 2025 from the last reports I saw was a 24 team Gold Cup w/8 invited teams from other federations to raise the standard or at least provide additional interest (Was supposed to be 2 each from UEFA, CONMEBOL, CAF and AFC) been pretty quiet about that recently so who knows if those plans are coming together or not.
This would have ruled out Tata Martino when he was hired by Mexico, arguably a worse job than the US right now due to the upcoming home soil world cup. I don't think it's folly to chase after experienced club managers, especially if they have experience on both sides of the Atlantic.
I still posit someone like Gallardo as a counterpoint. 48 years old, has established record of success at club level, not currently employed, but River is definitely a top 150 club and he managed there until 2022.
How is he a counterpoint? He's never shown any indication he's interested in managing a National Team. You can call him but there is no reason to think he's interested
Certainly seems like the only question is whether they even run a real search first.
Cherundolo's answers make it pretty clear he's talked to them about the job already. Additionally between Marsch's further comments on the USSF and the last process, and Hudson inadvertently revealing that he knew Gregg was returning when he quit (before the supposedly exhaustive process).... Feels liked it's going to be the 3rd straight fake coaching search
It that really the only question? This is a foregone conclusion three days after the last guy got fired?
This thread is basically the US Soccer subreddit at this point.
This thread is basically the US Soccer subreddit at this point.
Yeah that was a bit much. I am just particularly annoyed this morning with the additional indicators that the last hiring process was a sham
Edit interesting question.. When was the last time USSF had a real open manager search... Bradley? I don't remember that one, assume it's that or Arena?
Hearing word via Michele Giannone that the other October friendly will be against Mexico in Guadalajara. This would be a rarity as Mexico almost never plays friendlies at home. This is also about as tough a test as you can get in a friendly during this particular window.
It's going to be a sport at the 2028 LA Olympics, and they ought to give him a call at the very least
View: https://twitter.com/thegoalkeeper/status/1812304687980220815
Far from a Shermanesque statement from Wilfried Nancy last night:
View: https://twitter.com/justinruderman_/status/1812363643838775760
Far from a Shermanesque statement from Wilfried Nancy last night:
View: https://twitter.com/justinruderman_/status/1812363643838775760
View: https://twitter.com/SoccerInsider/status/1812611034328576393
Congrats to Luis de la Fuente and his agents on creating some leverage for his inevitable contract extension.
Congrats to Luis de la Fuente and his agents on creating some leverage for his inevitable contract extension.
His value at this point can only go down. His Spain squad was nowhere near the betting favorites when the tournament began, and ended as deserving champions all while redefining how Spain plays. They won the Euros by defeating four World Cup champions on the way (Italy, Germany, France and England). The previous record was two. No team had won six games at the same Euros. Spain won seven. It is a different federation now than the one that hired him, something about a kiss, but I’m not sure what kind of leverage he needs.
Does this have something to do with hosts automatically qualifying? I'm pretty sure hosts still compete in WCQ but just throwing it out there.
QFT.
The traditional route is to build your value through the international game and then land a club post. But some managers choose or reach a point in their careers where they enjoy the less time-consuming and intense Int'l game.
USA, Mexico, and Canada are not participating in World Cup qualifiers this cycle, but regardless October was an open date in the CONCACAF calendar, with the exception of Nations League for the minnows.
UEFA is playing nations league and COMNEBOL is playing World Cup qualifiers during that window, so presumably they are not available for friendlies. (I didn’t look up byes or other exceptions.)
So maybe Crocker is going to change how we operate. Seen some stuff from some of the most relentlessly negative podcasters/youtubers with sizeable followings that they have heard from good sources that Cherundolo isn't under consideration and the focus has been non-MLS guys.
Also interesting Charlie Davies said something along the lines of "Marsch was told he was getting the job then they pulled it" which even if he hedges holds some real weight given he and Marsch did a podcast together.
View: https://www.youtube.com/live/3nBRUO5o8TA?t=1331s
Apparently some other people have said the same but with the caveat that what happened is Crocker picked Marsch then the combination of some board members and the players talked him into keeping Gregg.
I actually kind of hope that is what happened. Would mean Crocker is likely getting his guy this time.
Also interesting Charlie Davies said something along the lines of "Marsch was told he was getting the job then they pulled it" which even if he hedges holds some real weight given he and Marsch did a podcast together.
View: https://www.youtube.com/live/3nBRUO5o8TA?t=1331s
Apparently some other people have said the same but with the caveat that what happened is Crocker picked Marsch then the combination of some board members and the players talked him into keeping Gregg.
I actually kind of hope that is what happened. Would mean Crocker is likely getting his guy this time.
Yes that would be ideal. Best way to bury the “jobs-for-the-boys” mentality for good.
Over on a discord server, a pretty reliable poster says that Willy Sagnol (current manager of Georgia) is under consideration. This is just a fragment of the process, so I wouldn't automatically assume he's a frontrunner or even totally sold on the job.
He should have no complaints when USSF offers him Gregg’s old salary and short term rental apartment in Chicago.
Southgate and Crocker have a lot of history. People won't be happy with the Aesthetics, but his resume is arguably the best of the rumored candidates
Best resume, but... Do we need another tactically inflexible manager who is slow to pull the trigger on substitutions? The stats are all over the Euro thread. Southgate made a very strong England team underperform while brilliant players scored worldies to keep them going. No thanks.
I really like watching Poch’s teams play and it feels like it would be a coup to get him, but he has no international managing experience. I just caution that international managing and club managing are two completely different animals though.
Luis Enrique won the treble with Barcelona. He was not nearly as successful with Spain, and his teams were flat out boring, predictable, and easy to beat. Luis de la Fuente was awful at Deportivo Alavés in the Segunda, but won the Nations League and then the Euros with Spain, and had also won the U-19 and U-21 Euros with Spain. Scaloni has never managed at the club level but has two Copa Americas and a World Cup trophy. The hiring of both de la Fuente and Scaloni were criticized because of the lack of name recognition. I’m not saying to go out and hire a no name, but success at the club level means very little.
Luis Enrique won the treble with Barcelona. He was not nearly as successful with Spain, and his teams were flat out boring, predictable, and easy to beat. Luis de la Fuente was awful at Deportivo Alavés in the Segunda, but won the Nations League and then the Euros with Spain, and had also won the U-19 and U-21 Euros with Spain. Scaloni has never managed at the club level but has two Copa Americas and a World Cup trophy. The hiring of both de la Fuente and Scaloni were criticized because of the lack of name recognition. I’m not saying to go out and hire a no name, but success at the club level means very little.
It's kind of remarkable that in addition to de la Fuente and Scaloni, the losing finalist managers (Southgate and Lorenzo) are also guys who have accomplished virtually nothing as club managers.
International soccer is just weird stuff.
It's almost like the difference any NT manager might make is swamped by the noise in the signal, and they're pretty much all fungible unless they're a tyrannical disaster like Corinne Diacre, and so we're just projecting our own biases / agenda into the hiring process and whatever it results in.
I don't think I have ever, not once, seen someone remark that a manager pushed all the right buttons but the players just didn't get it done. Statistically, though, you'd expect that if we jokers had any true insight to offer on managerial tactics, we'd have observed that happening just as frequently as the reverse (which we are all plenty eager to declare). And yet - never. Must be that all managers suck, then. And if they all suck, theb why sweat it, as a fan?
I don't think I have ever, not once, seen someone remark that a manager pushed all the right buttons but the players just didn't get it done. Statistically, though, you'd expect that if we jokers had any true insight to offer on managerial tactics, we'd have observed that happening just as frequently as the reverse (which we are all plenty eager to declare). And yet - never. Must be that all managers suck, then. And if they all suck, theb why sweat it, as a fan?
Just because Gareth wasn't the right manager for England at Euro '24 doesn't have much bearing IMO whether he would be a good fit for the USMNT. More importantly, Southgate's biggest strength is developing an entire program. If we give him 6 years to shape the MNT program then I'm on board for sure.
In addition, I don't think he would be a terrible manager for the USMNT. In other words, his flaws at Euro '24 included being loyal to certain players, in addition to tactical rigidity and conservative approach among other things. Those issues won't all be problems if he was given a new pool of players and had the relative player quality deficit he'd have with the USMNT at major tournaments. Now, if he rolls into the Gold Cup in a deep set 5-4-1, then no, he would not be a good choice. But we could do A LOT worse, and I've been railing against his manager performance over the last 2 years.
In addition, I don't think he would be a terrible manager for the USMNT. In other words, his flaws at Euro '24 included being loyal to certain players, in addition to tactical rigidity and conservative approach among other things. Those issues won't all be problems if he was given a new pool of players and had the relative player quality deficit he'd have with the USMNT at major tournaments. Now, if he rolls into the Gold Cup in a deep set 5-4-1, then no, he would not be a good choice. But we could do A LOT worse, and I've been railing against his manager performance over the last 2 years.
Poch is a funny one to think about, because he has a fairly complex system (not good for the Int'l Game) but he also emphasizes physicality and young players (very important for the Int'l Game). Regardless of whether it's in the US or for Argentina, it would be interesting to see him give it a shot.
But realistically, this guy has several more club stops before he tries it. I'd expect him to land a job in Spain or France (he played at Espanyol, Bordeaux, and PSG, but admittedly has already coached at Espanyol and PSG) before he considers Int'l.
I think that there are few great international managers, in part because the prestige and money is in the club game, and partially because you can only do so much in the short spread out training periods you get. However... I do think there are the occasional great manager who transforms a program, Bielsa in Chile comes to mind.
It's funny that Bielsa is now being lauded as a great international manager, because he was a complete flop when he managed Argentina, despite having an absolutely loaded squad (Batistuta, Crespo, Veron, Aimar, Riquelme, Saviola, Kily Gonzalez, Claudio Lopez, Sorin, Zanetti, Ayala, Walter Samuel, Simeone, Ortega, etc.). Argentina won nothing under Bielsa and had their worst modern performance at the World Cup when they couldn't get out of the group stage in 2002.