Ultimate Warriors: How do you beat them?

BigSoxFan

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Last year, they had the Cavs on the ropes even with Curry banged up and Draymond acting stupid. This year, they replaced Harrison Barnes with the 2nd best player in the world and are probably going to sweep a team with the best player in the world at the top of his game, one of the best scoring guards in the league, and an all star caliber big man in Love. Curry is 29. Durant is 28. Thompson and Green are 27.

So, how does the NBA stop this reign of terror? Cleveland has zero roster flexibility and are clearly outgunned and LeBron turns 33 in December. They'll probably get more shots at GS in the Finals but the results will probably be the same.

The Spurs even with Paul would be clear underdogs. And nobody else is even remotely close to being able to match up.

So, how do you beat this team if you one of the other 28 teams that doesn't have the best player in the world? Injuries could certainly play a role but let's assume they stay healthy for next 5 years. How many more titles are they winning? I say at least 2 with very good chance of more.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I'm not super in touch with GS ownership, but they're going to have to pay some serious coin to keep these guys together. KD is saying he'll take less to let them resign Steph, which is great, but Klay and Draymond are coming up soon. And they're going to have to start relying on older vets taking chump change to backfill bench roles and with the changes in the CBA I'm not sure that's all that reliable anymore.


Teams will have a shitload of money to spend. Do you take a mid level when some other team trying to make the floor offers you three times that? At some point a ring loses out to $$$. I think they have a 2-3 year window imo.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm not super in touch with GS ownership, but they're going to have to pay some serious coin to keep these guys together. KD is saying he'll take less to let them resign Steph, which is great, but Klay and Draymond are coming up soon. And they're going to have to start relying on older vets taking chump change to backfill bench roles and with the changes in the CBA I'm not sure that's all that reliable anymore.


Teams will have a shitload of money to spend. Do you take a mid level when some other team trying to make the floor offers you three times that? At some point a ring loses out to $$$. I think they have a 2-3 year window imo.
The tax bill is certainly coming. However, the return that they could get for a guy like Klay Thompson would be pretty substantial and could potentially solve their depth issues if they went down that route.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The tax bill is certainly coming. However, the return that they could get for a guy like Klay Thompson would be pretty substantial and could potentially solve their depth issues if they went down that route.
Fair point, but then are they the same juggernaut? I happen to think Klay is somewhat underrated in what he gives them but that can obviously be disagreed on.
 

luckiestman

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Fair point, but then are they the same juggernaut? I happen to think Klay is somewhat underrated in what he gives them but that can obviously be disagreed on.

I would love for Klay to make his way to the Celtics. I've been curious if he is going to be the odd man out for a while.
 

BigSoxFan

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Fair point, but then are they the same juggernaut? I happen to think Klay is somewhat underrated in what he gives them but that can obviously be disagreed on.
Well, they did go 73-9 without Durant. Klay is certainly very valuable for them but they may have to replace Iguodala and Livingston this summer, both of whom are very key players for them. Will be very interesting to see if they follow the Colts or Patriots philosophy. Or maybe their owners just say screw it and incur a ton of luxury tax penalties in order to keep the band together.
 

moondog80

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CP3 going to the Spurs gets them pretty close with a healthy Kawhi.
GS without Durant was considerably better than SA without Paul, and Durant is better than Paul, so unless you think Paul has a massive "whole is bigger than sum of parts" effect, I don't see it. Barring injury, nobody beats them. Maybe the Cavs if they traded for Anthony Davis. Maybe.
 

BaseballJones

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Last year, they had the Cavs on the ropes even with Curry banged up and Draymond acting stupid. This year, they replaced Harrison Barnes with the 2nd best player in the world and are probably going to sweep a team with the best player in the world at the top of his game, one of the best scoring guards in the league, and an all star caliber big man in Love. Curry is 29. Durant is 28. Thompson and Green are 27.

So, how does the NBA stop this reign of terror? Cleveland has zero roster flexibility and are clearly outgunned and LeBron turns 33 in December. They'll probably get more shots at GS in the Finals but the results will probably be the same.

The Spurs even with Paul would be clear underdogs. And nobody else is even remotely close to being able to match up.

So, how do you beat this team if you one of the other 28 teams that doesn't have the best player in the world? Injuries could certainly play a role but let's assume they stay healthy for next 5 years. How many more titles are they winning? I say at least 2 with very good chance of more.
I'm not one to root for injuries, but they do happen. Durably has had his share, and one key injury at the wrong time could easily open the door for SA or Cle.

Maybe the Celtics sign Hayward ad draft Fultz, and they both immediately play at a very high level for the Celtics, Brown takes a leap forward, and with their perimeter defense, are able to put up a stiff test.

No matter how you slice it, the Warriors are a total juggernaut and it will take something drastic for them to go down.

Fortunately, games and seasons are played out in real life and things happen. Players have bad games/years. Injuries occur. Players grow dissatisfied and selfish. It happens all the time and there's no reason to think that Golden State is somehow immune to all that.

But all that to say... It's pretty clear that Boston needs to organize their team around the post-Warriors dynasty window. And that absolutely means no trading this year's #1 pick for Butler or George.
 

smastroyin

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The problem for a Celtics focused thought is that making a team to beat both the Cavs and the Warriors is very difficult. I think the healthy Spurs or (yes) Celtics would give the Warriors more trouble than the Cavs are...but obviously the Cavs smoked the Celtics and I think they probably beat the Spurs.

I'm not saying anyone beats them this year. Just that, in order to build the team that can take down the Warriors, I think you end up vulnerable to the Cavs.

It's hard to do within the reality of the salary cap and the idea that other teams aren't going to just go all-in to help Cleveland. But here's something that works under the cap.

Cavs trade Iman Shumpert and Richard Jefferson for Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder. Why would the Celtics do this? They wouldn't.
Cavs trade Tristan Thompson for Greg Monroe. why would the Bucks do this? They wouldn't.

You can come up with a bunch of fantasy stuff if LeBron decides he wants to win only. There is probably some CBA clause that wouldn't allow this, but just for fun:

Celtics renounce everyone they have to, Hayward signs for a little less than the max to allow a bit more flexibility, after the Celtics have done draft choices, etc., and are over the cap LeBron signs for the MLE. So you take this Celtics team, and
- replace Amir Johnson with LeBron James
- replace Jonas Jerebko with Gordon Hayward (Crowder to bench)
- replace Kelly Olynyk with Ante Zizic
- replace Terry Rozier with Markelle Fultz

If you can come up with LeBron doing something similar for the Wizards, their starters are a wrecking ball, they would probably play small Morris/James/Porter/Beal/Wall. You'd probably have to replace Brooks.

Anyway, that's all I've got for fantasy land. Realistically, you just have to wait them out or hope Durant is bored after winning and wants to go elsewhere.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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They got a bit lost in the shuffle after Harden's super weird meltdown in the playoffs, but I think Houston has the pieces and personnel to get there if everything breaks right from them. And by "breaks right for them," I of course mean that several high profile players decide to prioritize beating Golden State over making money.

With Harden/Gordon/Beverley they have a trio of guards that match up decently well with Golden State. Gordon can chase Thompson around is is strong enough to body him if Thompson posts up. Harden and Curry can both not play defense at all. And Beverley can make Curry work hard during his minutes.

If they could find a way to (drastically) improve their wing play, they could get close. Best case scenario, Hayward could force his way there. They'd have to find a taker for a few contracts like Ariza and Lou Williams, but it's not impossible.

Add a few solid veteran minimum guys who defend the wing (Mbah a Moute, PJ Tucker), re-sign Nene for depth, add a versatile big like Taj Gibson or James Johnson and you might have something going.

Harden/Beverley
Gordon/Tucker
Hayward/Mbah a Moute
Anderson/Gibson
Capella/Nene

And then maybe if Gallinari just really, really misses D'Antoni? I dunno.
 

ALiveH

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I've always said that at any given point in time, you can make this argument that there are 2-3 superteams dominating the league so why bother going for it? That's an argument losers make. The answer is always just become one of those superteams and let the chips fall where they may. The Cavs beat the juggernaut last year (and folks somehow spun that into even more of a reason not to go for it); Steph Curry came out of pretty much nowhere to take the league by storm at a relatively late age. Things can change in a hurry.

[but I agree don't mortgage the future for Butler or George, mostly because it seems tough to do so at a decent value]
 

Mooch

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CP3 going to the Spurs gets them pretty close with a healthy Kawhi.
I don't think Paul is going to the Spurs. He's throwing that rumor out there to get his $200M from the Clippers. San Antonio would have to gut their roster to fit him in and Paul would be giving up a ton of dough.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Please


This is the answer:
Haha, already been tried repeatedly (and even more egregiously) by both the Spurs and Cavs. Turns out it's exceedingly hard to execute that precisely, especially against a player whose ankle isn't already badly messed up. But sure, if Kerr runs out injured players they way Popovich did in that game you might be able to take out KD or Curry for a few games.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I'm not super in touch with GS ownership, but they're going to have to pay some serious coin to keep these guys together. KD is saying he'll take less to let them resign Steph, which is great, but Klay and Draymond are coming up soon. And they're going to have to start relying on older vets taking chump change to backfill bench roles and with the changes in the CBA I'm not sure that's all that reliable anymore.
They have Bird rights on Steph (and retaining his $18M cap hold is obviously a given), so what KD does doesn't really affect him. But KD's willingness to accept his "non-Bird rights" 20% max raise rather than signing a new max deal into cap space (roughly a $3M haircut) will allow them to retain the cap holds on Andre and Shaun and resign them to a mutually agreeable number. My sense is that Iguodala, an aspiring Silicon Valley mogul, is a given, but that Livingston, who has never signed a big NBA contract, is iffier.

Seems pretty clear they're grooming Patrick McCaw to fill some combo of the Andre/Shaun role (versatile, defensive-minded wing who can handle the ball), either due to one of them leaving or due to the fact they're getting older. Big shoes to fill, but he's shown some promising early signs.

Draymond's under contract for three more years, Klay for two. What happens after that probably depends how much luxury tax Joe Lacob is interested in paying. At some point paying ~$40M a year for four guys in their early 30s may seem extravagant to him. Or maybe it won't...
 

the moops

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I think the healthy Spurs or (yes) Celtics would give the Warriors more trouble than the Cavs are.
I am not sure why anything but a complete homer hot take would lead someone to belive that the Celtics would give the Warriors any trouble, let alone more than the Cavs.
 

smastroyin

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Well, the Celtics play better perimeter defense and spacing game. Would that all be disrupted by Durant actually playing? Probably, but whoever the Cavs throw out at the 2 (other than LeBron I suppose) is a pretty big liability against the Warriors that the Celtics don't have.

I get it, the regular season doesn't count for anything, but the Celtics have had pretty good success against the Warriors the last 3 years, at least compared to the NBA at large.

Regardless, the point stands, if you build a team specifically to beat the Warriors under NBA rules (i.e. you don't just throw the all-NBA teams against them) then the choices you make to specifically address them will largely blow up when you face the Cavs.
 

cheech13

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Golden State quietly has some tough decisions to make this summer. If Durant defers on his max contract and takes the 20% raise they will have the means to bring back Igoudala and Livingston? Should they? Those guys are huge contributors now, but they are on the back end of their careers and bringing them back would result in a massive luxury tax bill. It also kills flexibility by eliminating exceptions and certain trade mechanisms. That doesn't hurt now, but it could affect the ability to tinker around the edges in future years. Make the wrong decision on players 5 to 8 in this rotation, have one of the top four suffer an unexpected injury, and now that juggernaut looks a little more beatable.

They hit massive home runs last summer with Zaza, West and McGee last year. They have to do that again and again if they continue to eat up the entire cap with four guys.
 

Devizier

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What makes me sad about this discussion is that we were one Kevin Garnett injury away from people in the NBA having this same conversation about the big three era Celtics.
 

I am an Idiot

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Lebron declines his player option, and comes to the Celtics. Starting five is Fultz, Thomas, James, Some guy, and Horford. BRK pick next year gives us either a true center or another forward in the lottery. We forget the warriors ever existed.
 

snowmanny

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They look absolutely unbeatable. Right now. I'm not sure they look more unbeatable than the 86 Celtics -especially on the day of the 86 draft - or the 83 Sixers. I know they don't look more unbeatable than the 71 Bucks. But they definitely look unbeatable. Hopefully (for them) nobody gets older or injured or selfish or inexplicably starts to suck.

The point is, they could easily win three in a row like the Bulls did twice or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers did, but sometimes things turn faster then you expect.
 

cheech13

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They look absolutely unbeatable. Right now. I'm not sure they look more unbeatable than the 86 Celtics -especially on the day of the 86 draft - or the 83 Sixers. I know they don't look more unbeatable than the 71 Bucks. But they definitely look unbeatable. Hopefully (for them) nobody gets older or injured or selfish or inexplicably starts to suck.

The point is, they could easily win three in a row like the Bulls did twice or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers did, but sometimes things turn faster then you expect.
Piggy-backing on this a bit, but had you told me in summer of 2002 that the Shaq-Kobe Lakers wouldn't win another title together, I wouldn't have believed it. Lebron's Heat looked nearly unbeatable when the big 3 clicked and they went to smallball in the 2012 playoffs. Even the '08 Celtics looked like a burgeoning dynasty. The thing is we just don't know what will happen to these players going forward and how the team will address any hardship. My gut tells me they'll win titles throughout Durant and Curry's primes, but I've seen enough NBA over the years to know that doesn't typically happen. We haven't seen a team win more than 3 in a row since the '60s.

Also, with regards to the Bulls winning 6 in 8 years. Yes, that was a complete dominance by a single organization. It was also two different two teams that just both happened to have Pippen and Jordan. Had Jordan stuck around post 1993 things might have ended up much different. Even then, a potential dynasty like the '91-'93 Bulls was partially ended by an unexpected event (Jordan's retirement).
 

plucy

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a rock and a hard place
CLE needs to grab George or Butler to neutralize Durant. If George is adamant about bolting in 18-19, Love plus future picks might influence IND to move on. Or a three way with Love rerouted to say, Den. Or BOS if FA options don't materialize.
 

Sam Ray Not

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What makes me sad about this discussion is that we were one Kevin Garnett injury away from people in the NBA having this same conversation about the big three era Celtics.
Biggest difference is that 2007-08, Ray was 32, Garnett 31 and Pierce 30.

in 2016-17, Curry and Durant were both 28 and Green and Thompson were both 26.

Also worth noting that this is Year 3 of the dynasty for the Ws, with one title in the bank, another likely on the way, the record for most wins ever in a single season, and the record for most wins ever over three seasons.

Edit: also the first team in any of the four major sports to reel off 15 straight playoff wins.

All that said... as others have noted, the hoops gods have a way of juking out expectations. Heck, for all we know the Cavs are about to pull an '04 Red Sox.
 
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Kliq

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The Warriors right now are also capitalizing on changes in the game, both rules-based and stylistically that have helped them become dominant. If the rules of the game change (Idk, something like they push the three point line back) or new strategies are developed by some innovative mind, the Warriors are likely to become more vulnerable.
 

NoXInNixon

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There's always Bobby the Brain Heenan grabbing their leg or Macho King Randy Savage hitting them in the head with a scepter.
 

the moops

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Well, the Celtics play better perimeter defense and spacing game. Would that all be disrupted by Durant actually playing? Probably, but whoever the Cavs throw out at the 2 (other than LeBron I suppose) is a pretty big liability against the Warriors that the Celtics don't have.
Klay Thompson had a very nice game 3, an average game 2, and a horrific game 1. Whoever the cavs throw out at the 2 really hasn't been the issue here. But even conceding that point, the Celts and whoever they throw out at the 4 is a much bigger liability against the Warriors than the Cavs issue at the 2.
 

queenb

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LeBron would become my favorite athlete of all time if for the next few years he just chose a new team every summer to make into a title contender. He'd get a Decision-level backlash because presumably teams would start clearing the decks for him and leave themselves in ruins once he's gone (or never arrives). But if he stays dominant for the next four years, he'd make the all-in moves worth it for a few franchises that would take even a single season to be excited about. If he never won another title but spent the rest of his career dragging previously-middling teams to the Finals, or did win more rings by pushing a few good teams over the top, that would be easily the best thing ever to happen to a major sport.

I only put this in the thread because -- as improbable as it is -- it would solve the first-order problem of the Warriors being unbeatable -- especially if he joined a current contender -- and the second-order problem of the Warriors' dominance, which is that the NBA is less appealing to fans who want to see parity and new teams contending every year. Imagine him delivering his friend Chris Paul a title next June with the Clips, then in July signing with the Pelicans. Perpetual two-year deals with one-year options and the chance to deliver titles to multiple cities.
 

tims4wins

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LeBron would become my favorite athlete of all time if for the next few years he just chose a new team every summer to make into a title contender. He'd get a Decision-level backlash because presumably teams would start clearing the decks for him and leave themselves in ruins once he's gone (or never arrives). But if he stays dominant for the next four years, he'd make the all-in moves worth it for a few franchises that would take even a single season to be excited about. If he never won another title but spent the rest of his career dragging previously-middling teams to the Finals, or did win more rings by pushing a few good teams over the top, that would be easily the best thing ever to happen to a major sport.

I only put this in the thread because -- as improbable as it is -- it would solve the first-order problem of the Warriors being unbeatable -- especially if he joined a current contender -- and the second-order problem of the Warriors' dominance, which is that the NBA is less appealing to fans who want to see parity and new teams contending every year. Imagine him delivering his friend Chris Paul a title next June with the Clips, then in July signing with the Pelicans. Perpetual two-year deals with one-year options and the chance to deliver titles to multiple cities.
For a guy who, fairly or not, earned a bit of a reputation as selfish, he could really spin that into a very selfless act. I'd love to see it too.
 

cheech13

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Even given Lebron's propensity to make unpopular decisions if it works in his best interest I'm somewhat surprised by the avalanche of rumors and rumblings today about him leaving next summer for the Lakers or Clippers. I don't see how either of those teams really solve his current conundrum of beating the Warriors. Putting together team Banana Boat several years after their respective primes is a surefire loser, as is joining a baby Lakers team that won't be ready until he's in the final act of his career. The best place for him to go is a team with young superstars that can crest at the exact moment he gets there. Milwaukee and Minnesota make the most sense in that respect, but he sure as hell won't do that.

As an aside, what do the Cavs even attempt to do this summer? They don't have a draft pick and they don't have any future picks available as a trade sweetener. They're over the tax apron so the only mechanism they have for adding players is the tax-payers mid-level and veteran's exceptions, neither of which is going to bring back major talent. Love is probably the only piece with trade value, but even then what would you get back that would make a functional difference against Golden State?
 

Kid T

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Lebron declines his player option, and comes to the Celtics. Starting five is Fultz, Thomas, James, Some guy, and Horford. BRK pick next year gives us either a true center or another forward in the lottery. We forget the warriors ever existed.

This would be a fantastic plan - we just need to convince LBJ to come to Boston (preferably for the league minimum so we can snag Hayward also to fill the "some guy" role. If we are going to daydream, go big or go home!
 

ElUno20

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How do you beat the team perfectly constructed to play the current style of basketball? You don't. You hope the NBA changes the way the game is played or hope someone gets injured. Other than that, you're f'd. Devote more time to another sport, it's what I've done.
 

reggiecleveland

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How do you beat the team perfectly constructed to play the current style of basketball? You don't. You hope the NBA changes the way the game is played or hope someone gets injured. Other than that, you're f'd. Devote more time to another sport, it's what I've done.
That's where I am at. The league needs to do something to make the 2 pointer more valuable or hurt the other team more.
 

moly99

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Love is probably the only piece with trade value, but even then what would you get back that would make a functional difference against Golden State?
If the Celtics end up trading IT and building for the future instead of the present, I actually think Cleveland makes sense as a landing spot for Bradley and Smart. (Presumably with JR Smith and future picks heading back.) I really wouldn't like that trade as a Celtics fan, though. Especially if it means three years of JR Smith.
 
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scottyno

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If the Celtics end up trading IT and building for the future instead of the present, I actually think Cleveland makes sense as a landing spot for Bradley and Smart. (Presumably with JR Smith and future picks heading back.)
Cavs have already given up their 2017 1st and likely their 2019 1st. They don't have any future picks to give unless you want to give up Bradley and Smart for lottery tickets in 4+ years that could be anything
 

Kid T

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Cavs have already given up their 2017 1st and likely their 2019 1st. They don't have any future picks to give unless you want to give up Bradley and Smart for lottery tickets in 4+ years that could be anything

Those post-:LBJ picks are the only ones that could be worthwhile, but i doubt Cleveland would agree to a NJ Nets type of deal. In exchange for probably 5-10 years of cellar dwelling in those years, their best case scenario would be chance at maybe 1 or 2 championships in the next 4 (and perhaps 0 for 4 given how dominant GS looks).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's a longshot but the 76ers have some of the pieces to challenge the Ws in the next couple of years and could obtain the others. That would require Embiid to stay healthy, Simmons to be the generational (or close thereto) talent who could guard and cause problems for Durant, getting Fox or Smith this year and at least one more guard who can defend, plus having them mature before the cap implications hit, but talent-wise, Embiid, Simmons, and Fox being All-Stars would be an interesting nucleus to give the Ws problems.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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I honestly don't know your you beat them.

Maybe the answer is not to try and play their game. I wonder if, for instance, New Orleans just went all in on the best defenders they could find at the 1-3 positions and then just played a slow, plodding game around Davis and Cousins if they could force Golden State to adjust to their personnel instead of vice versa. Maybe the way to beat them is to make Draymond guard a true big like Cousins/Davis, and on the other end make the Green matchup the most enticing so Green tries to do too much on offense.

Not sure that works, and it may well be ugly, but if New Orleans could find a way to acquire guys like Beverley, Tony Allen, Andre Roberson, etc that can make Curry, Durant and Thompson work maybe that's something?

But really, who knows.

I will say this though -- this has been TOO easy for Golden State. To the point that I'm willing to bet that it means a bit less to everybody involved. If you have him truth serum, I guarantee you Curry would admit that it's not nearly as satisfying to roll through Cleveland like this with Durant than it would have been for last year's team to get revenge. Likewise, there's no way this championship will mean as much to Durant as Dirk's meant to Dirk.

Which is not meant as any sort of critique of super teams or attack on the character of Durant or anything like that. I genuinely support a guy's right to play wherever the hell he wants and don't think they owe any franchise any particular loyalty, etc.

But when the deck's stacked like this, I can't help but believe it lessens the satisfaction a bit.
 

RedOctober3829

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I honestly don't know your you beat them.

Maybe the answer is not to try and play their game. I wonder if, for instance, New Orleans just went all in on the best defenders they could find at the 1-3 positions and then just played a slow, plodding game around Davis and Cousins if they could force Golden State to adjust to their personnel instead of vice versa. Maybe the way to beat them is to make Draymond guard a true big like Cousins/Davis, and on the other end make the Green matchup the most enticing so Green tries to do too much on offense.

Not sure that works, and it may well be ugly, but if New Orleans could find a way to acquire guys like Beverley, Tony Allen, Andre Roberson, etc that can make Curry, Durant and Thompson work maybe that's something?

But really, who knows.

I will say this though -- this has been TOO easy for Golden State. To the point that I'm willing to bet that it means a bit less to everybody involved. If you have him truth serum, I guarantee you Curry would admit that it's not nearly as satisfying to roll through Cleveland like this with Durant than it would have been for last year's team to get revenge. Likewise, there's no way this championship will mean as much to Durant as Dirk's meant to Dirk.

Which is not meant as any sort of critique of super teams or attack on the character of Durant or anything like that. I genuinely support a guy's right to play wherever the hell he wants and don't think they owe any franchise any particular loyalty, etc.

But when the deck's stacked like this, I can't help but believe it lessens the satisfaction a bit.
I see where you're coming from but I disagree. When you're part of a team that is as good as GS is, the expectations are through the roof. It is very hard to meet or exceed those expectations and GS could exceed them especially with a win tonight and achieving the 16-0 playoff record. To me, that would be very satisfying and rewarding.

As far as your KD comment, it sure as hell had to be a great feeling for Dirk to win his with Dallas considering the time he put in. But KG was a Celtic for a year and everybody could tell how much it meant to him. Players dream of winning a championship as a kid growing up and once they achieve it that is all that matters. The satisfaction won't be tempered one bit if it's the first ring.
 

Auger34

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Apr 23, 2010
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I see where you're coming from but I disagree. When you're part of a team that is as good as GS is, the expectations are through the roof. It is very hard to meet or exceed those expectations and GS could exceed them especially with a win tonight and achieving the 16-0 playoff record. To me, that would be very satisfying and rewarding.

As far as your KD comment, it sure as hell had to be a great feeling for Dirk to win his with Dallas considering the time he put in. But KG was a Celtic for a year and everybody could tell how much it meant to him. Players dream of winning a championship as a kid growing up and once they achieve it that is all that matters. The satisfaction won't be tempered one bit if it's the first ring.
I agree with some of what you are saying here (KD's enthusiasm and elation in winning his 1st ring won't be tampered at all and 16-0 is a hell of an accomplishment) but overall I have to disagree

I don't think G&MB that this championship doesn't mean as much because KD has only been there for one year, it's because they are so good and they have stacked the deck so much that there has been no hint of competition this entire time. Part of the satisfaction and elation of winning it all is the shared experiences a team has to overcome, beating the odds, silencing the doubters, etc. This entire 16 game run, the Warriors have been involved in two games that have been even somewhat competitive. In one of them, Zaza stepped under Kawhi's foot and ruined the chance of that even being a series. In the other, Kyrie Irving and LeBron played absolutely out of their minds and Golden State still won.
As far as the KG comparison, that team had real doubts to overcome. If you remember. people thought that first year was going to be a "getting acclimated with each other" year due to all the new players on the Celtics and the presence of the Lakers. They had some close series throughout the playoff run (they never won a series in less than 6 games) Most people predicted the Lakers to beat the Celtics in that finals. Golden State's only scare was when KD got hurt. There were no doubts about how good they were. No one in their right mind picked anyone other than Golden State to win it all this entire season. Yes, there was immense pressure but they had 4 of the 25 best fucking players in the league. Unless one of them got hurt or just completely forgot how to play basketball there was never any question of the outcome we are seeing

The 16-0 is something to be very proud of and I am sure Durant will be elated because he reached the mountain top, something every player dreams of and works hard to achieve. But I completely agree with G&MB that if you gave truth serum to Klay, Steph, and Draymond this one doesn't mean as much as the first. This has been labeled as retribution, and I get the sentiment but I ultimately disagree. Retribution is running it back with the same team and kicking Cleveland's ass with Draymond atoning for his propensity to kick/punch people in the junk. This is effectively losing a grueling NCAA Championship doubles tennis match.......then swapping your partner out for Roger Federer. Yeah you get some measure of vindication but you also completely changed the factors involved and heavily stilted it in your favor.
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
Grin made two amazing points in his post. Yes, the team that beats the Warriors won't be a better version of what they do but instead a completely different version of basketball. The Pelicans may have been a tire fire last year but that sort of inside/outside game that neutralizes small ball on both ends could be the way to go.

As for 16-0 I'm not sure it means less in the moment but it could have long-term ramifications. The Warriors now have the best regular and postseason records (if they win tonight) and they'll have successfully vanquished their only perceived competition. How do you stay hungry after that? It wouldn't be surprising to see guys dogging it or asking out for more money or to be stars on their own teams. This may not happen next year but it could in the future if they roll everyone again.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,849
NYC
Unless one of them got hurt or just completely forgot how to play basketball there was never any question of the outcome we are seeing.
Eh, nothing personal, but I've been hearing this a lot the last few days, and I mostly call BS (or at least 20:20 hindsight) unless the people now saying it can point to a specific post during the season where they said they clearly said there was *no question* the Warriors would win it all.

Obviously the Ws were favorites (especially among more stat-oriented outfits like 538) but there were plenty of doubters among the punditocracy, and plenty who picked the defending-champion Cavs, especially after they beat the Ws on Christmas, after they signed Korver, after they signed Deron Williams, etc. Barkley and Shaq both picked the Cavs going into the Finals, to name two pundits (though it's debatable if they're "in their right minds.")

Heck, even on this forum, which I think is a pretty good proxy for "sophisticated hoops fans without a horse in the race," the pre-Finals picks were pretty mixed:

2.6% Warriors in 4
24.4% Warriors in 5
37.2% Warriors in 6
15.4% Warriors in 7
0% Cavs in 4
1.3% Cavs in 5
14.1% Cavs in 6
5.1% Cavs in 7

That's 72% who expected a hard-fought series (6 or 7 games), and 20% who expected an outright Cavs win. And heck ... those Cavs-pickers could still be right!

In any case, all this "no question" and "foregone conclusion" stuff kinda reminds me of the dude in the V&N thread who said Trump had a 100% chance of winning the election because he won.
 
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