Tyler Seguin - Revisited v5

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Eddie Jurak said:
For me it really depends on what the road forward is. I would rather blow it up now then spend the rest of the Bergeron era on a slow descent into mediocrity (or worse).

The problem I see is that the team is:

1. Lacking in talent (see 1st line RW).
2. Unable to retain the all of the talent it does have (UFA Soderberg, RFAs Hamilton, Krug, Smith).
3. Beyond Pastrnak and perhaps Morrow, short on young guys capable of providing low cost value.

I'm not optimistic. How does next year's team look if they are forced to roll with an even thinner and less talented roster than the current one?

Of course, the returns to blowing it up are also unclear.

In hindsight, I think Chiarelli wrecked the organization with the Seguin deal. Even if Chiarelli was correct that Seguin's greatest value to the Bruins was as a trade chip, that doesn't excuse his bungling of the deal.
 
I disagree to a point.  The Seguin deal looks to be an error, but the depth they acquired is part of the solution for the future.  It is fairly reasonable that they can retain the UFAs and RFAs with the cap going up and Iginla's penalty coming off the books.  You have to realize that they will be losing Campbell, Paille and McQuaid and likely replacing them with $600K cap hits.  That's a $3mm savings and likely pays Dougie on a bridge contract.  They should have enough money to keep their free agents and add one reasonable piece to what is still a pretty young team, save for Chara and Seidenberg.   The real issue is the existing players need to play up to their ability.  I count only Soderberg and maybe Krejci as playing up to expectations and the latter has missed half the season so far.  
 
 
Edit- Another key factor for the future is Claude.  He needs to learn to adapt to younger players.  Spooner, Koko, Morrow and Pastrnak are legit NHL talents.  They need to be utilized.  If he can't find a way to get players like that in the lineup and effective, then no amount of tweaking by Chia is going to fix it. 
 

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They should have had more patience with Seguin and assigned him to live with an older teammate like Pittsburgh did with Crosby. Someone to keep him on the straight and narrow.  Would have been nice to still have the League's leading goal scorer.
 

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scotian1 said:
They should have had more patience with Seguin and assigned him to live with an older teammate like Pittsburgh did with Crosby. Someone to keep him on the straight and narrow.  Would have been nice to still have the League's leading goal scorer.
I just dont understand them getting fed up with a 21 year old ubertalented player. Yes, he acted like a shithead....WE ALL DID AT THAT AGE. If a guy's not Bergeron at 18 they get rid of him. Madness.
 

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
I just dont understand them getting fed up with a 21 year old ubertalented player. Yes, he acted like a shithead....WE ALL DID AT THAT AGE. If a guy's not Bergeron at 18 they get rid of him. Madness.
it's the stupid stupid mantra in this city that you have to be a tough and/or tough to play against and a good back checker too. It drives me fucking nuts that they can't have a player who is just good at scoring goals. Not every single guy needs to be good in all 3 zones, especially ones who can score like a Seguin. A lot of the fan base feeds into this garbage too.
 

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BoSoxFink said:
one is also in Toronto, however that trade was a good one, it's what came after that sucked.
I mean, Kessel is 4th in the NHL in goals since the deal. I don't think that trade was very good at the time either unless Chiarelli knew Toronto was going to be THAT bad.
 
They were lucky the Leafs decided to play Vesa Toskala and he sunk their otherwise bad team to the bottom of the standings AND they were lucky that there were two clearly great talents in the draft AND they were lucky that the next year Toronto didn't improve much and a bunch of teams decided not to draft Hamilton for some unknown reason. They could have easily ended up with two worse players than Seguin and Hamilton.
 
But Claude seemed to hate Kessel so I guess he would have been out of here anyway sooner or later.
 
Point being, Chiarelli is not a good GM. 
 
One thing that I still don't get is why they couldn't get a better return for Seguin. I disagree with giving up on a guy at age 21, but if you've decided on that wouldn't lots of teams be calling about him? Eriksson was fine pre-concussion but he wasn't going to get better, and the prospects were just OK. I'd love to know what other offers there were (and if there weren't any...wait until he has more value...but they HAD TO HAVE HORTON...what a mistake that would have been).
 

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Toe Nash said:
 
One thing that I still don't get is why they couldn't get a better return for Seguin. I disagree with giving up on a guy at age 21, but if you've decided on that wouldn't lots of teams be calling about him? Eriksson was fine pre-concussion but he wasn't going to get better, and the prospects were just OK. I'd love to know what other offers there were (and if there weren't any...wait until he has more value...but they HAD TO HAVE HORTON...what a mistake that would have been).
 
 
Because their main objective at the time (which they chose to document on "Behind the B") was GET RID OF HIM RIGHT THE FUCK NOW!!!. Getting value back was a secondary concern - the prime objective was addition by subtraction.
 
Had they been looking to maximize the return on an elite (but flawed, at least for them) talent, they would have dealt him a year earlier or a year later.  
 

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The Seguin trade has been a complete bomb, yes? There's not much argument about that anymore, right? You cannot trade every young scoring talent you acquire for a bunch of spare parts and expect to win in this league.

By far Chia's biggest mistake. We've got a team that can't score and the 22 year old kid they dumped as fast as they could manage is gonna ring up 50. That's not a good result.
 

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I wish they had shown the dissenters in the room.  
Do we know who they were/just assume it was the people not shown in the video?

Either way, I think it is hilariously telling and fitting that the clip was edited this way. Especially now. The unanimity with which this decision was shown to have been made, regardless of how accurate that portrayal is, was crafted initially to convince Bruins fans (and probably the front office itself) that this was a necessary move. Now, it lives on in abject infamy and embarrassment for everyone involved and will never stop being relevant for as long as Seguin plays and especially for as long as we suck and blatantly miss his presence. This clip should be shown in museums. It's just perfect.
 

LogansDad

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
The Seguin trade has been a complete bomb, yes? There's not much argument about that anymore, right? You cannot trade every young scoring talent you acquire for a bunch of spare parts and expect to win in this league.

By far Chia's biggest mistake. We've got a team that can't score and the 22 year old kid they dumped as fast as they could manage is gonna ring up 50. That's not a good result.
I'm not sure the trade itself was a complete bomb.... I actually really like Smith and Loui and the way they play (Smith especially has been good this year in a lot of different ways, both defense and offense).  Though Morrow is really struggling this year (at least when looking straight at stats, I admit to having not seen him play at all).
 
I think the problem is that they haven't found another way to fill the scoring hole that trading Seguin left.  At this point I don't know how they do that, but I am not completely sold on the trade being a complete bust, either.
 

Toe Nash

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LogansDad said:
I'm not sure the trade itself was a complete bomb.... I actually really like Smith and Loui and the way they play (Smith especially has been good this year in a lot of different ways, both defense and offense).  Fraser has also shown signs that he can be a useful piece, though Morrow is really struggling this year (at least when looking straight at stats, I admit to having not seen him play at all).
 
I think the problem is that they haven't found another way to fill the scoring hole that trading Seguin left.  At this point I don't know how they do that, but I am not completely sold on the trade being a complete bust, either.
Fraser was put on waivers and claimed by Edmonton.
 

Eddie Jurak

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gingerbreadmann said:
Do we know who they were/just assume it was the people not shown in the video?

Either way, I think it is hilariously telling and fitting that the clip was edited this way. Especially now. The unanimity with which this decision was shown to have been made, regardless of how accurate that portrayal is, was crafted initially to convince Bruins fans (and probably the front office itself) that this was a necessary move. Now, it lives on in abject infamy and embarrassment for everyone involved and will never stop being relevant for as long as Seguin plays and especially for as long as we suck and blatantly miss his presence. This clip should be shown in museums. It's just perfect.
Were there dissenters? They might have just cut out anti-Seguin comments that even they felt would have been over the line to publicize.

Honestly, the worst thing in there for me was Chiarelli's "Sound familiar?" - an obvious reference to Kessel. Maybe he just said that for the cameras, but if not, it gives the whole thing a "smartest guys in the room" kind of feel. (We can shit out elite talent because we know better than everyone else.)

It's not necessarily that trading Seguin was wrong; it's botching the deal that was wrong.
 

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Toe Nash said:
Good point (and grammar), thanks.
 
Care to make a counter-argument?
Only because you're such a kind dick. You strip away all the good that came out of the trade and attribute that to blind luck while lamenting the bad in that he gave up a good player and conveniently omitting his contract wasn't going to fit on the team because the team hitched its horse to Krejci (and Thomas IIRC) that offseason, a defensible move then and now, though certainly up for debate. It wasn't a move made in a vacuum and if you could think of a better return, I'd love to hear it.
 

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The mistake wasn't dealing Seguin. The mistake was signing him to the extension before the lockout in the first place. You can deal with a forward completely disappearing in the playoffs for 4 series (even if he's supposed to be an elite scorer), but not when he's your highest paid forward. People love to forget how fucking awful Seguin was that last year he was here. If they keep Seguin, they would have lost Krejci or Tuukka and had a pretty weak team last year.

Looks like Chiarelli made the same mistake with Lucic too. That contract looks pretty rough right now, signed at same time as Seguin's deal.
 

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The Four Peters said:
The mistake wasn't dealing Seguin. The mistake was signing him to the extension before the lockout in the first place. You can deal with a forward completely disappearing in the playoffs for 4 series (even if he's supposed to be an elite scorer), but not when he's your highest paid forward. People love to forget how fucking awful Seguin was that last year he was here. If they keep Seguin, they would have lost Krejci or Tuukka and had a pretty weak team last year.

Looks like Chiarelli made the same mistake with Lucic too. That contract looks pretty rough right now, signed at same time as Seguin's deal.
I agree that signing Seguin to the contract extension was a mistake (the first mistake), but for me the second mistake was trading him when his value was at an all time low.  Chiarelli went "all in" and then "all out" on Seguin within one year.  That's bad management.  If he was going to sign the player long-term, he should have held him for at least another year to build some trade value.  
 
BTW, is this a guy who should be traded for poor playoff production: 24 GP, 0 G, 7 A?
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Four Peters said:
There is a remarkable amount of revisionist history going on in this thread and the gamethread (I'll move those posts over). I don't have time to identify every single one, but things like "Marchand toiled on the fourth line" or the sentiment that Krug being a UDFA rookie stepping into the playoffs for the first time and never losing his spot is somehow a mark AGAINST Claude playing young players, or that Reilly Smith is just an "ok prospect", or that Spooner hasn't been objectively horrendous in a fair amount of playing time in the NHL, or that Seguin wasn't complete garbage in the 2013 Cup run and having a "goal scorer" would have led them to the promised land (this one is implied). I'm left just absolutely baffled if people are watching the same team.
 
The real issues are these:
  • Bergeron, Tuukka, and Krejci all got paid, and their performance has not improved and in some cases has declined, yet the aggregate cap hit for them is much higher now.
  • The Iginla cap carryover (a move I supported but it didn't work out)
  • The knee injuries to Chara and Seidenberg sapping them of being a top pairing
  • Lucic falling off a cliff (and being their 2nd highest paid forward)
  • Miller/McQuaid/Campbell/Bartkowski eating up over 5M in cap money and providing absolutely nothing, probably a negative overall. 
 
The only upside in replacement production has been Dougie and Soderberg outperforming their deals, and maybe Krug and Reilly Smith. Marchand and Kelly have been ok for what they're paid and I like Paille for what he is.
 
Keeping Seguin would have made this team MORE top heavy, or meaning that one of Tuukka, Bergeron, or Krejci would be gone and the rest of the roster would be even worse. Maybe that would have worked out great. But you're not going to see the Bruins paying 6-9M for a goal scorer, it's not how they're built, it's not their philosophy, and that's not going to change. The issues with the Bruins right now are not just related to trading Seguin. They're also related to a lot of things that happened after that.
 
I think it is eminently fair to criticize an organization (not just the coach) for having Krug buried so far on the depth chart that it took a slew of injuries to get him into the lineup.  He was and has been clearly one of their best 6 defensemen and the team did not see him as such at the time.  That's on the organization as a whole not just the coach.  It makes one wonder if there are others guys languishing, though, while the team continues to run Campbell and Paille out to get schooled on every shift.
 
Keeping Seguin was made complicated by the contract (which was a mistake), and would have necessitated other moves.  But trading him at a deep discount eliminated a major trade asset (even if that's all he was ever going to be for the Bruins) without solving the cap problems.
 
That's bad management - if that is the team philosophy we are in for a rough decade.   
 

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Scoops Bolling said:
Good. God. How do you list those 3 issues, and then manage to turn this into a Seguin problem? Adding Seguin gets you your 1st line RW, of course it also loses the team's current best two RWs. It also exacerbates problem #2, as you now have slightly less cap space to work with and another Top 6 hole to fill, and takes away one of the only guys listed in #3 to help provide cost controlled value. The Bruins with Seguin would be even more desperate to cut salary than the current version was entering the season, and would have more holes to fill at the same time. Chiarelli saw that problem coming, and tried to deal with it. Has the trade worked out as well as hoped? Obviously not, but how exactly could anyone have predicted the Eriksson concussions? Hell, if it had been flipped around and Seguin was the one who'd had his brains scrambled, would we be touting it as the greatest steal of the century, and not just bad luck for the Stars?
 
Between this and the Boychuk bitching, it's almost as if everyone has forgotten the NHL has a salary cap. Maintaining an elite team is an incredibly tricky task under a salary cap, and the Bruins have done it just about as well as anyone else in the NHL. Sometimes that means good players have to be traded, or else you're going to lose other good players for nothing because you have no ability to re-sign them. Sometimes those trades don't work out due to injury or bad luck. Sitting back and bitching about those moves when you can't offer a valid counter-strategy that would have kept the team under the cap and doesn't require extensive after the fact knowledge is just asinine.
 
Sometimes I really desperately wished Boston fans had to pay attention to just how incompetently many other franchises are run so they could see the lunacy of their complaints.
If salary was the problem, they should have dealt Seguin without taking back nearly as much salary as they shipped out.  There were other ways they could have saved $2 million in cap room.
 

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Eddie Jurak said:
I agree that signing Seguin to the contract extension was a mistake (the first mistake), but for me the second mistake was trading him when his value was at an all time low.  Chiarelli went "all in" and then "all out" on Seguin within one year.  That's bad management.  If he was going to sign the player long-term, he should have held him for at least another year to build some trade value.  
 
BTW, is this a guy who should be traded for poor playoff production: 24 GP, 0 G, 7 A?
The point about trading when the value was at an all time low is fair. And I didn't want him traded BECAUSE of the low production (assuming you're referring to Marchand with another one of your false equivalencies) but just stating that people forget how terrible he was and that he wouldn't necessarily be a fix all (since it could be argued his disappearing act cost them a Cup).
 
Eddie Jurak said:
 
I think it is eminently fair to criticize an organization (not just the coach) for having Krug buried so far on the depth chart that it took a slew of injuries to get him into the lineup.  He was and has been clearly one of their best 6 defensemen and the team did not see him as such at the time.  That's on the organization as a whole not just the coach.  It makes one wonder if there are others guys languishing, though, while the team continues to run Campbell and Paille out to get schooled on every shift.
 
Keeping Seguin was made complicated by the contract (which was a mistake), and would have necessitated other moves.  But trading him at a deep discount eliminated a major trade asset (even if that's all he was ever going to be for the Bruins) without solving the cap problems.
 
That's bad management - if that is the team philosophy we are in for a rough decade.   
 
Krug was a UDFA who hadn't shown this ability at all. He took advantage of an amazing opportunity and never looked back, adn to the Bruins credit they stuck with him. Criticizing them for one of their most successful development stories seems extremely backwards to me.
 
And trading Seguin DID solve the cap problems. The 5 issues that I laid out after then mucked it all up again.
 
Eddie Jurak said:
If salary was the problem, they should have dealt Seguin without taking back nearly as much salary as they shipped out.  There were other ways they could have saved $2 million in cap room.
 
It was salary + production + roster needs. They replaced Seguin's roster spot with another player, and added a top 6 winger, and saved 2 million. Otherwise, they would have had to add at least one more player via FA, so they saved more than two million. Edit - they saved $4million straight up last year, 3.3 when considering Smith's extension this year. You're not entitled to your own facts.
 
I'm not even gung ho about defending the deal. There's plenty about it to criticize (signing the deal and trading him at his lowest value are very fair criticisms), but people are just using hyperbole to make it seem like they gave away a 50 goal scorer for nothing.
 

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Eddie Jurak said:
If salary was the problem, they should have dealt Seguin without taking back nearly as much salary as they shipped out.  There were other ways they could have saved $2 million in cap room.
 
But they thought they were getting a player who at least in the short term 2-3 years was going to be every bit as good a player as Seguin was in their system, especially considering his 3 zone prowess.    It hasn't worked out as planned, at least partially due to the concussions,  but at least recently we have seen some of what they believed they were getting in the deal.  Eriksson was the best player on the ice for this team in December
 

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Eddie Jurak said:
 
I think it is eminently fair to criticize an organization (not just the coach) for having Krug buried so far on the depth chart that it took a slew of injuries to get him into the lineup.  He was and has been clearly one of their best 6 defensemen and the team did not see him as such at the time.  That's on the organization as a whole not just the coach.  It makes one wonder if there are others guys languishing, though, while the team continues to run Campbell and Paille out to get schooled on every shift.
 
Keeping Seguin was made complicated by the contract (which was a mistake), and would have necessitated other moves.  But trading him at a deep discount eliminated a major trade asset (even if that's all he was ever going to be for the Bruins) without solving the cap problems.
 
That's bad management - if that is the team philosophy we are in for a rough decade.   
 
Hyperbole much?  How do you figure it was a deep discount.  They got an all star cost controlled forward in Eriksson, and three highly regarded prospects.  The lowest ranked prospect they obtained became a top 6 forward immediately.  They also moved Peverly off the roster, which was critical to maintaining cap compliance over the longer term.
Eddie Jurak said:
If salary was the problem, they should have dealt Seguin without taking back nearly as much salary as they shipped out.  There were other ways they could have saved $2 million in cap room.
Care to share your math? 
 

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BigMike said:
 
But they thought they were getting a player who at least in the short term 2-3 years was going to be every bit as good a player as Seguin was in their system, especially considering his 3 zone prowess.    It hasn't worked out as planned, at least partially due to the concussions,  but at least recently we have seen some of what they believed they were getting in the deal.  Eriksson was the best player on the ice for this team in December
Think Dallas would reconsider?

It's OK to trade a player like Seguin. It's not OK to botch the deal - if you are going to make that deal you have to make it count. Chiarelli didn't.
 

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BigMike said:
 
But they thought they were getting a player who at least in the short term 2-3 years was going to be every bit as good a player as Seguin was in their system, especially considering his 3 zone prowess.    It hasn't worked out as planned, at least partially due to the concussions,  but at least recently we have seen some of what they believed they were getting in the deal.  Eriksson was the best player on the ice for this team in December
 
The problem is that Eriksson is 29, never mind that he's been a disappointment. Seguin is 22. Eriksson was never going to get any better once acquired due to his age. Seguin obviously would.
 
Yes, Seguin had a rough 2012/13 season after the lockout and his PPG went from .83 the previous year to .67 in the lockout year, plus he had postseason struggles. But he was 21 years old, and young players struggle. Does anyone think that after seeing him explode up to 1.05 PPG last year and 1.24 PPG this year that Seguin might not have been the problem? The point about keeping him making the team more top-heavy is a good one, but he's an elite talent and he's the type of player one should keep even if he makes the team more top-heavy.
 
Eriksson has consistently been a .60 PPG player. Smith last year was also a .62 PPG player, and he's down to .50 this year. In trading parlance, the Bruins traded a horse and got back two ponies. That's never going to work out well long term. Honestly it reminds me of the Thornton trade all those years ago.
 
And anyway, results matter and the results this year suck. And the team can't score at all and has become one of the worst teams in hockey and a player they dealt is on pace for 50 and it's fair to wonder why the Bruins did that and how they got to this situation today.
 
I've been thinking about this deal for quite some time now and held off on commenting about it because I didn't want to knee-jerk react and wanted to see how the team shook out this year after Eriksson shook off his concussions. But it's galling to see Seguin thriving elsewhere after the Bruins couldn't trade him fast enough.
 

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
 
The point about keeping him making the team more top-heavy is a good one, but he's an elite talent and he's the type of player one should keep even if he makes the team more top-heavy.
 
So who would you give up? Seguin, Bergeron, Krejci, or Tuukka? The Bruins very likely wouldn't have re-signed one of them if Seguin stayed.
 
Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
And anyway, results matter and the results this year suck. And the team can't score at all and has become one of the worst teams in hockey and a player they dealt is on pace for 50 and it's fair to wonder why the Bruins did that and how they got to this situation today.
21st in the league in scoring, 20th in point percentage. Not good at all, not acceptable, but also not one of the worst teams in hockey. And I just laid out above five of the reasons that the Bruins got this way. None of them included trading Seguin.
 
Its ok to put forth legitimate criticisms without hyperbole, made up facts, and revising history, everyone. They did manage to win the President's trophy last year without him. Why not analyze why they went from the best team in hockey last year to completely mediocre this year? Here's a hint:
 
  • Bergeron, Tuukka, and Krejci all got paid, and their performance has not improved and in some cases has declined, yet the aggregate cap hit for them is much higher now.
  • The Iginla cap carryover (a move I supported but it didn't work out)
  • The knee injuries to Chara and Seidenberg sapping them of being a top pairing
  • Lucic falling off a cliff (and being their 2nd highest paid forward)
  • Miller/McQuaid/Campbell/Bartkowski eating up over 5M in cap money and providing absolutely nothing, probably a negative overall. 
 

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Its ok to put forth legitimate criticisms without hyperbole, made up facts, and revising history, everyone. They did manage to win the President's trophy last year without him. Why not analyze why they went from the best team in hockey last year to completely mediocre this year?
 
Yes, in- or past-their-prime players got older and their production declined. Who would have thought that might happen?
 
As for the President's trophy, that's pretty meaningless to me. Montreal ran circles around them when it mattered and it was pretty clear the Bruins weren't built to compete with such teams. Frankly after that series I would have gladly traded Lucic. They didn't have the foot speed to keep up.
 
They had Iginla last year to take up the scoring slack, but because of their cap issues they could only keep him one year. After dealing Seguin they kicked the scoring can down the road a year and now is the time to pay the piper.
 
Obviously no one is saying Seguin would be some sort of panacea. But they dumped him when his value was low and got a commensurate return and thus have made the team worse.
 
Rask's play has been killing them this year. Of course that's the biggest problem they face. He shoulda never had that kid. Trust me, I know of which I speak.
 
I mean, we all are in agreement that the team is pretty bad this year, aren't we? We're watching the games, we're seeing how they play. Injuries had something to do with it early, but those players are back now and the team is still terrible. 20th in the league, 21st....details details. They're 10th in the conference. That's awful.
 

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TYLER SEGUIN WOULD NOT HAVE THIS PRODUCTION PLAYING IN BOSTON.
 
Would he be our leading scorer currently? Probably, but it's disingenuous to keep quoting his current scoring pace as if he would be on that pace in Boston where he would likely not be in the middle and would be forced to play 200 feet. This doesn't make the trade (or the entire handling of Seguin for that matter) well done, but what he's doing now is not completely analogous to what he'd be doing in Boston.
 
People also whitewash the personal  issues that pushed the trade by saying "look at Paddy Kane," but he's an exception. Seguin's behavior was causing problems in the locker room;  whether or not you believe that the Bruins should have placed their faith in the Bergeron/Chara locker room tone, that's what they did and Tyler wasn't a good fit with that.
 
The Four Peters said:
 
  • Bergeron, Tuukka, and Krejci all got paid, and their performance has not improved and in some cases has declined, yet the aggregate cap hit for them is much higher now.
  • The Iginla cap carryover (a move I supported but it didn't work out)
  • The knee injuries to Chara and Seidenberg sapping them of being a top pairing
  • Lucic falling off a cliff (and being their 2nd highest paid forward)
  • Miller/McQuaid/Campbell/Bartkowski eating up over 5M in cap money and providing absolutely nothing, probably a negative overall. 
 
 
I think we need a new thread that starts with this.
 

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For better or worse they made the trade not looking at 15 years but rather looking at 3 years where they thought Chara had enough left to be the guy. 
 
They clearly thought Eriksson could replace Seguin in that window.  I think they believed that between Smith/Fraser, they would get at least one player who could fill one of their open wing spots for short money, and they had a plan for the 2 million; although that didn't quite work out and they had to settle on Iginla and his ransom
 
And it almost worked.    They had the best team in hockey last year,  and the Seidenberg blows out a need, and Kelly goes down.
 

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The Four Peters said:
 
 
So who would you give up? Seguin, Bergeron, Krejci, or Tuukka? The Bruins very likely wouldn't have re-signed one of them if Seguin stayed.
 
 
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they trade Boychuk a year earlier. Maybe they buy out Kelly, or trade Campbell. You can't assume everything else after trading Seguin happens in a vacuum. With Seguin on the team you're not paying for Loui, or Smith. So you're likely looking at more Cunningham/Caron/Griffith than we've currently seen. But maybe that isn't a bad thing.
 
I think the Bruins could have fit Seguin, and still kept the "rest" of the core (Bergeron/Krejci/Tuukka). Maybe keeping Seguin forces to deal Kelly/Campbell/Paille/McQuaid for pennies on the dollar - but you could still field a competitive team with a good, maybe great young core locked up long term.
 

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BigMike said:
For better or worse they made the trade not looking at 15 years but rather looking at 3 years where they thought Chara had enough left to be the guy. 
 
They clearly thought Eriksson could replace Seguin in that window.  I think they believed that between Smith/Fraser, they would get at least one player who could fill one of their open wing spots for short money, and they had a plan for the 2 million; although that didn't quite work out and they had to settle on Iginla and his ransom
 
And it almost worked.    They had the best team in hockey last year,  and the Seidenberg blows out a need, and Kelly goes down.
 
We really need to stop hanging our hats on this. Who are we, the Canucks?
 
When it mattered they came up short. There's very little to be proud of going out in the second round against fucking Montreal.
 
This has little to do with the Seguin question, but just wanted it said.
 

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Dummy Hoy said:
TYLER SEGUIN WOULD NOT HAVE THIS PRODUCTION PLAYING IN BOSTON.
 
 
 
So maybe he only has 40 goals instead of 50?
 
Kessel scored 36 his last season here. Seguin had 30 in his last full season. Marc Savard had 96, 78, and 88 points in his three healthy seasons here.
 
Players CAN be great offensively here. Unfortunately the Bruins have lost (one way or the other) the GREAT offensive talents they've had.
 

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RIFan said:
 
Hyperbole much?  How do you figure it was a deep discount.  They got an all star cost controlled forward in Eriksson, and three highly regarded prospects.  The lowest ranked prospect they obtained became a top 6 forward immediately.  They also moved Peverly off the roster, which was critical to maintaining cap compliance over the longer term.
Care to share your math? 
Forwards' offensive production tends to peak at age 25-26. In dealing Seguin for Eriksson, they traded someone years ahead of his peak for someone who was, at best, starting his decline. I realize there was some wild-eyed optimism when the deal happened "Eriksson will score 40 here!", and Eriksson's actual production took a hit over injuries, but I don't think there was ever any good reason to think we were getting more than a 20-25 goal guy. It's also notable that throughout the summer/preseason the idea was that Loui was going to fit in on Bergeron's line, and even before getting hurt he played himself out of that job (easiest top 6 job in the NHL?) and onto the third line.

And they didn't trade him for Loui and three highly-rated prospects - one of the guys coming back was a throw in who was waived after disappointing in limited opportunities. Another was a guy who had already been traded before and who fills an area of relative depth rather than one of need. Smith is a good player, but the jury is still out on whether he is a
legit top 6 guy or more of a very good third liner. During his hot start last year, Chiarelli tried to pump the brakes on him a bit, saying the Bruins saw him as more of a third liner.

They have made deals where they moved the better talent in the past and had it work for them (Wheeler for Peverley). But I don't think it worked for them here.
 

RIFan

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Eddie Jurak said:
Forwards' offensive production tends to peak at age 25-26. In dealing Seguin for Eriksson, they traded someone years ahead of his peak for someone who was, at best, starting his decline. I realize there was some wild-eyed optimism when the deal happened "Eriksson will score 40 here!", and Eriksson's actual production took a hit over injuries, but I don't think there was ever any good reason to think we were getting more than a 20-25 goal guy. It's also notable that throughout the summer/preseason the idea was that Loui was going to fit in on Bergeron's line, and even before getting hurt he played himself out of that job (easiest top 6 job in the NHL?) and onto the third line.

And they didn't trade him for Loui and three highly-rated prospects - one of the guys coming back was a throw in who was waived after disappointing in limited opportunities. Another was a guy who had already been traded before and who fills an area of relative depth rather than one of need. Smith is a good player, but the jury is still out on whether he is a
legit top 6 guy or more of a very good third liner. During his hot start last year, Chiarelli tried to pump the brakes on him a bit, saying the Bruins saw him as more of a third liner.

They have made deals where they moved the better talent in the past and had it work for them (Wheeler for Peverley). But I don't think it worked for them here.
The issue with your previous post was calling it a deep discount.  There isn't a lot of argument that the deal isn't working out in their favor, but it was hardly a deep discount based on the facts at the time.  The Bruins were definitely looking down the road and seeing a cap crisis and wanted to maximize the short term window.  They moved $9M off the roster and took back $4.25 plus whoever made the team out of camp.  Calling a guy who potted 70 goals in 2 AHL seasons a throw in is revisionism at it's best.   Maybe a lottery ticket type prospect, but definitely not a throw in.  Morrow was a 1st round pick traded in a deadline deal as a centerpiece to help Pitt make a cup run.  They also did it with the intent of creating space to resign Horton, and settled on Iginla when that didn't work out.  A potential elite scorer being traded always looks bad in a vacuum, but in it's totality it was defensible at the time.  Horton/Iginla + Eriksson arguably positioned the B's for another cup run over Seguin and Peverly.
 
For years everyone bitched about the Bruins remaining competitive but not doing enough to GFIN.  They clearly took a GFIN approach and are now faced with the decision blowing up in their face.  Hats off to TFP for being a voice of reason in these threads.
 

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If you are Dallas and the Bruins call offering Eriksson, Smith, Morrow, and a first for Seguin, do you just hang up the phone or do you laugh first?

It was a deep discount.

Edit: Maybe it was not a deep discount in the sense that it was the best Chiarelli could have done at the time... But that is an argument for not doing the deal at the time.
 

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Eddie Jurak said:
If you are Dallas and the Bruins call offering Eriksson, Smith, Morrow, and a first for Seguin, do you just hang up the phone or do you laugh first?

It was a deep discount.

Edit: Maybe it was not a deep discount in the sense that it was the best Chiarelli could have done at the time... But that is an argument for not doing the deal at the time.
God you're insufferable.
 
Let's evaluate the trade after 2 extra seasons of data, that seems productive. If Seguin had put up those numbers before the Bruins traded him, you bet your ass he would have brought back more, but he didn't. The Bruins weren't trading a 50 goal scorer at the time. This is getting silly.
 
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Could someone explain to me a bit more on the point that Seguin wouldn't have had his current production if he'd continued playing in Boston?  Is it that he didn't get the coaching he needed here, and he's getting more-suitable coaching in Dallas?  Is it that he didn't mesh with the culture here (an argument I'd accept) but somehow found a more fitting / tolerant culture in Texas?  Is it who he's paired with on his current line?  Is it the tactics of how he's used, and how his skills mesh with Claude's overarching approach?
 
For the sake of context:
 
In baseball, talent is probably like 90%+ transferable between teams, because pitching and catching and whatnot are very individual activities.  Coaching can matter, team chemistry can matter, team batting approach and relative emphasis can matter... but the basic act of how good you are at executing your pitches, or reading and reacting to a pitch, is the vast majority of the battle.
 
In football, let's call it 70% transferable, and moreso on offense.  Most players' abilities to run routes, remember assignments and hot reads, execute blocks etc are pretty transferable, but scheme, emphasis and complexity matter.  In defense, some positions are very transferable, but different teams have wildly different priorities in terms of the skill sets that fit best into their scheme.  Talent matters a lot, but coaching, chemistry and scheme play a lot more into it.
 
In basketball, talent might be 60% transferable (and 83% of these numbers are completely made up, I'm making a qualitative point).  How you interact with the other players on the team, know their preferences and instincts, and learn to react as a group and be fluid with each other, is a huge undertaking often requiring years.  If you put LeBron on any random team, he's still an MVP, but he can't win a title on his own and still needs a supporting cast with whom he meshes well.  Coaching matters hugely; the balance and emphasis of different skillsets in building a roster can vary enormously from team to team.
 
My point, for all the above, is that I have no idea where hockey fits in that spectrum.  My instinct, as a novice, is that it's somewhere between basketball and football in terms of the transferability of talent.  Near-100% for goalies, probably higher-than-average for defensemen, but forwards are very team-specific.  I'd like to understand if that's at all accurate, and if so, what factors drive it.
 

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Julien has a very demanding two-way system that requires the forwards to be accountable on both ends of the ice. Additionally, he likes to play all four lines and generally speaking his star players have less ice time numbers than other teams because of this.
 
I can't speak to Dallas specifically, but many coaches don't have such a demanding system that requires the combination of defense and depth. This typically will show up on the stat sheet for some guys (or so the legend goes).
 

FL4WL3SS

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For example, Seguin is averaging 2.5 minutes more ice time in Dallas this year than he did his last season in Boston. He's averaging a full minute more than our forward leader in ice time, Krejci (19.5 to 18.5).
 

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In Dallas, Seguin gets 19:31 TOI/G with 3:23 of that PP time. By comparison, the leading Bruins forward this year is Krejci with 18:18 TOI/G and the leading PP guy is Hamilton with 2:11 per game.

The other thing is Seguin was able to move to center for the Stars. Centers handlethe puck a lot more than wingers, this opening up more opportunities to collect points. In Boston he likely remains on the wing.
 

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FL4WL3SS said:
For example, Seguin is averaging 2.5 minutes more ice time in Dallas this year than he did his last season in Boston. He's averaging a full minute more than our forward leader in ice time, Krejci (19.5 to 18.5).
 
His responsibilities are also totally different.  I watched two Dallas games last week and the guy barely goes below the circles on defense.  I would say maybe 10 times in both games?  There is legit evidence that he would take a significant hit in production had he still been in Boston from where he is now because they simply do not play that way here.  
 
At the time the trade stung but seemed to make sense because the cup window was short, and Eriksson was a more complete player and comparable offensively, at least for the near future.  That certainly hasn't worked out but I do think its silly to look at what Seguin is doing now where he has no responsibilities defensively, a top 20 player on his wing and a team that gives him far more icetime (mostly in the offensive zone and PP), and say that it was a stupid trade 2 years ago.  It's apples and dumptrucks.  
 

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Too much is made of the "wouldn't have done it here" argument. On this team, Seguin is probably "just" a 40 goal scorer instead of a 50+. BFD. Chiarelli still undersold.

If the deal he got was the best one he could get at the time, then he should have held off until he could get something reasonable.
 

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I just did some quick and dirty math and Seguin would have been expected to score 4 more goals in his last season in Boston with similar TOI numbers as Dallas (16 v. 20). This was the strike shortened season, so over an 82 game season we could expect this to come out to 32 v 40 goals.
 

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FL4WL3SS said:
I just did some quick and dirty math and Seguin would have been expected to score 4 more goals in his last season in Boston with similar TOI numbers as Dallas (16 v. 20). This was the strike shortened season, so over an 82 game season we could expect this to come out to 32 v 40 goals.
 
I'm sure it doesn't - but does that include the difference in PP time as well? 
 

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burstnbloom said:
 
At the time the trade stung but seemed to make sense because the cup window was short, and Eriksson was a more complete player and comparable offensively, at least for the near future.  That certainly hasn't worked out but I do think its silly to look at what Seguin is doing now where he has no responsibilities defensively, a top 20 player on his wing and a team that gives him far more icetime (mostly in the offensive zone and PP), and say that it was a stupid trade 2 years ago.  It's apples and dumptrucks.  
It is pure idiocy to call Eriksson "comparable offensively" - even ignoring everything that has happened since the trade. Seguin's offense in Boston was far better than Eriksson's recent production in Dallas.

If Chiarelli really thought that, in terms of offensive production, Seguin for Eriksson was a short term wash, then he is an idiot and should be fired ASAP. I think he knew he was getting less than a 30 goal scorer in Loui. maybe I give him too much credit.
 

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He's also playing center instead of wing in Dallas, which is really huge for him.  He was in a weird spot here where the coach didn't trust him to be a top line center, so he was either playing the wing or the #3 center.  If he stays at his natural position, he has inferior teammates.  If he plays out of position he gets more opportunity, but now he's battling along the boards and doing some things that maybe aren't natural to him.  It was a really weird problem in that regard.
 
edit: already covered, i see.