Tremont Waters is Bad

Euclis20

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Nesmith may have played a little more, but as of right now, he's definitely in the Edwards/Waters/Wagner group.
He was occasionally given real time back when Smart and Romeo were out, but now that they are healthy (and with Fournier on the roster) he has no place on this year's playoff rotation. He should still be a level above the others, as should Semi.
 

jmcc5400

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Where were you for the Tremont Waters Game?
When it got to 27, a friend texted "Would it be too much to ask to get it to 40?"

I responded "I'm not convinced we won't need to put the starters back in."

When the Lakers cut it to 13 with 3:20 left, Brad called timeout, and returned with the Waters-Edwards-Semi-Nesmith-Wagner abomination I went a little crazy.

When the Lakers cut it to 8 with 2:15 left and Waters responded with a sloppy turnaround in the lane with 15 seconds left on the shot clock like he was playing at the Y and then got his pocket picked on the next possession - and didn't really even chase after the loose ball - I was apoplectic.

I can laugh about it now. But it was really a completely avoidable slow motion car crash that Brad inexplicably kept steering into at the 3:20 mark.
 
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TripleOT

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The smart move would have been to put the bench back in when the lead dipped under 16.

Brad had four TOs. If he really wanted the 3rd-4th string to get experience, he would have used them whenever the Lakers strung together three unanswered baskets
 

reggiecleveland

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I kinda get what he was trying to do, which was show he could play. As things unwound he kept thinking, "When I drill this it will all be okay."

Once, coaching a pretty bad highschool team, I almost ended this UCLA like winning streak of this great team, when their coach concerned about running up the score played his bench the whole 2nd half. They maintained a comfortable 20+ lead until the very end when we made a few of those new-fangled 3pointer things in a row, then a terrible call against them , followed by a terrible technical foul call, we had a shot at the buzzer to win, but didn't.
 

NomarsFool

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What's interesting is that he was the G-league rookie of the year. Okay, not the most prestigious award in the world, but there was chatter last season about some GMs were interested in him and it even seemed like the Celtics might have been able to trade him for something.

My how the "mighty" have fallen.
 

128

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What's interesting is that he was the G-league rookie of the year. Okay, not the most prestigious award in the world, but there was chatter last season about some GMs were interested in him and it even seemed like the Celtics might have been able to trade him for something.

My how the "mighty" have fallen.
Didn't Abdel Nader win that award, too, when he was with the Red Claws? He didn't stick in Boston, but he's become a solid player for PHX after bouncing around a bit.
 

HomeRunBaker

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What's interesting is that he was the G-league rookie of the year. Okay, not the most prestigious award in the world, but there was chatter last season about some GMs were interested in him and it even seemed like the Celtics might have been able to trade him for something.

My how the "mighty" have fallen.
I used Ish Smith as his upside in the other thread and Ish didn’t find his niche as a full-time backup until his 6th team before ultimately starting 160+ games and counting. If guys can stick around/bounce around the league to their mid to late 20’s when they reach their peak performance they have more shots to find a good fit for themselves. It’s up to the player to have a great attitude and work hard enough for teams to continue giving them that shot however. Every evaluator in the NBA by now has seen/heard about Waters last night......these memories stick in decision makers minds and are sometimes hard to get out of their heads.
 

NomarsFool

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Was Waters that bad last night? I guess I was more blown away by Wagner and the constant turnovers.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I used Ish Smith as his upside in the other thread and Ish didn’t find his niche as a full-time backup until his 6th team before ultimately starting 160+ games and counting. If guys can stick around/bounce around the league to their mid to late 20’s when they reach their peak performance they have more shots to find a good fit for themselves. It’s up to the player to have a great attitude and work hard enough for teams to continue giving them that shot however. Every evaluator in the NBA by now has seen/heard about Waters last night......these memories stick in decision makers minds and are sometimes hard to get out of their heads.
I wonder if Waters will head to Europe for a couple of years.
 

Cellar-Door

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Was Waters that bad last night? I guess I was more blown away by Wagner and the constant turnovers.
Lets put it this way. If he had caught the inbounds dribbled to the frontcourt then just dribbled out the clock, and done that on every possession.... his plus minus would have been significantly better.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's a little funny after the fact, considering it was our 3rd string getting hammered by their 3rd string and none of the guys on the floor (other than maybe Semi) will ever see a single meaningful minute in the playoffs, but in the moment it was beyond infuriating.
McLemore isn't 3rd string and he will see minutes. McKinnie might ss well if he continues shooting 43+% from 3P.
 

chilidawg

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Waters was both bad and stupid. Wagner was just unbelievably bad, and now he's gone.

Coach put in his 3rd string against the Lakers 3rd string with 6 minutes or so to go and up 24. It's not his fault they were simply amazingly bad. That's on the players.

Semi and Nesmith are such role players at this point that that's all they know how to do, even when Waters and Wagner are the center of the offense.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Waters was both bad and stupid. Wagner was just unbelievably bad, and now he's gone.

Coach put in his 3rd string against the Lakers 3rd string with 6 minutes or so to go and up 24. It's not his fault they were simply amazingly bad. That's on the players.

Semi and Nesmith are such role players at this point that that's all they know how to do, even when Waters and Wagner are the center of the offense.
Am I the only one who continues repeating that 20-pt lead w half of a quarter to go isn’t garbage time in this league? We see 13-2 runs over a 2-minute stretch all the time with regular rotation guys on the floor. Is a 24-pt lead with 20 or so possessions to go against our G-League team really insurmountable? Of course it’s on the players but Brad kinda put himself, and his starters, in that position to begin with which wasn’t necessary.
 

djbayko

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Coach put in his 3rd string against the Lakers 3rd string with 6 minutes or so to go and up 24. It's not his fault they were simply amazingly bad. That's on the players.
This was discussed in the fake thread. I don’t fault him for trying it out. I fault him for letting it get away from him. It would have been so easy to sub in 1 or 2 second string players and not let it get to the point where Jaylen Brown had to save the game.
 

HomeRunBaker

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This was discussed in the fake thread. I don’t fault him for trying it out. I fault him for letting it get away from him. It would have been so easy to sub in 1 or 2 second string players and not let it get to the point where Jaylen Brown had to save the game.
The second string guys played the 4Q, along with Jaylen, as part of their normal rotation. The only change made was with 9 to go when Carsen came in for Jaylen but the second unit had things under control just fine. The train wreck began with about 6 min to go when Wagner, Nesmith and Waters subbed in (along with Semi). I totally understand and agree with Brad wanting to give the starters the rest of the game off. My point was that there was no reason to replace the second unit so early with so many possessions remaining in the game.
 

chilidawg

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Am I the only one who continues repeating that 20-pt lead w half of a quarter to go isn’t garbage time in this league? We see 13-2 runs over a 2-minute stretch all the time with regular rotation guys on the floor. Is a 24-pt lead with 20 or so possessions to go against our G-League team really insurmountable? Of course it’s on the players but Brad kinda put himself, and his starters, in that position to begin with which wasn’t necessary.
Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make your point more valid, nor does it usually do much to convince other people that you're right.
 

djbayko

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The second string guys played the 4Q, along with Jaylen, as part of their normal rotation. The only change made was with 9 to go when Carsen came in for Jaylen but the second unit had things under control just fine. The train wreck began with about 6 min to go when Wagner, Nesmith and Waters subbed in (along with Semi). I totally understand and agree with Brad wanting to give the starters the rest of the game off. My point was that there was no reason to replace the second unit so early with so many possessions remaining in the game.
I wasn’t responding to you. I did read your post though. Regardless, once he DID make that decision, he let it get out of hand for too long.
 

slamminsammya

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Am I the only one who continues repeating that 20-pt lead w half of a quarter to go isn’t garbage time in this league? We see 13-2 runs over a 2-minute stretch all the time with regular rotation guys on the floor. Is a 24-pt lead with 20 or so possessions to go against our G-League team really insurmountable? Of course it’s on the players but Brad kinda put himself, and his starters, in that position to begin with which wasn’t necessary.
In what sense is it not garbage time? The win percentage at that point is like 99.9%. What do you think of as garbage time?
 

HomeRunBaker

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In what sense is it not garbage time? The win percentage at that point is like 99.9%. What do you think of as garbage time?
It isn’t about “winning pct”.......what are the chances of an 8 poss game becoming a 3 poss game against your non-NBA players over those next 3-4 min to where the game is now contested?
 
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Cesar Crespo

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It isn’t about “winning pct”.......what are the chances of an 8 poss game becoming a 3 poss game against your non-NBA players over those next 3-4 min to where the game is now contested?
Putting them in was fine. The fact he kept them in so long was the problem. There were other bench players he could have put back in. Instead he waited until he had to put in the starters.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Putting them in was fine. The fact he kept them in so long was the problem. There were other bench players he could have put back in. Instead he waited until he had to put in the starters.
If you have to remove the deep bench from garbage time then by (at least my) definition......it wasn’t yet garbage time.
 

JakeRae

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If you have to remove the deep bench from garbage time then by (at least my) definition......it wasn’t yet garbage time.
Losing a 20+ point lead in 6 minutes requires a pace equal to a 40 point/quarter difference. That’s a really high bar.

I think if both teams are going to their deep bench, it is perfectly appropriate to do it at that point. Our deep bench failed miserably, but that doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision. I do think there’s a valid criticism that Brad should’ve gone back to the second string when he called the timeout. Subbing out Wagner and Waters for Pritchard and Kornet at that point probably would’ve been enough to settle the game down and run out the clock on what was still a 13 point lead.
 

DourDoerr

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Subbing out Wagner and Waters for Pritchard and Kornet at that point probably would’ve been enough to settle the game down and run out the clock on what was still a 13 point lead.
This should’ve been the move. Anything to avoid bringing in your bread and butter. I had dvr’d the game and it was terrifying. If everyone came away from this with a negative impression of Waters, there’s an equal number who had their positive impressions of Brown reinforced and enhanced. Good for his confidence. Teaching moment for Waters - unless this is a bridge too far.
 

Koufax

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It's possible that Danny had asked Brad to play Wagner in order to get one last look before deciding to pull the plug on him.
 

benhogan

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Am I the only one who continues repeating that 20-pt lead w half of a quarter to go isn’t garbage time in this league? We see 13-2 runs over a 2-minute stretch all the time with regular rotation guys on the floor. Is a 24-pt lead with 20 or so possessions to go against our G-League team really insurmountable? Of course it’s on the players but Brad kinda put himself, and his starters, in that position to begin with which wasn’t necessary.
you're 100% correct

PP, Grant, Romeo, Kornet, Semi could all use mins/rep. Brad doesn't need to play the deep bench with less than 20 games to go in the season. As much as I like to see Nesmith/Tacko develop with real game minutes that's Summer league, G-league, pre-season, early next regular-season business. Our 2nd stringers (bolded above) need the shots/play since they may see situational/match-up playoff minutes.

Also, I'll criticize Danny here (in hindsight) in regards to wasting this season's use of 2-way. After declining Maine's participation in the G-League, and the NBA basically letting teams run a 17-man roster (playoffs included) they should have done a better job than having 4 shrimpy guards (Kemba, PP, Carsen, Tremont). There was no reason to have kept Tremont.

The second string guys played the 4Q, along with Jaylen, as part of their normal rotation. The only change made was with 9 to go when Carsen came in for Jaylen but the second unit had things under control just fine. The train wreck began with about 6 min to go when Wagner, Nesmith and Waters subbed in (along with Semi). I totally understand and agree with Brad wanting to give the starters the rest of the game off. My point was that there was no reason to replace the second unit so early with so many possessions remaining in the game.
aglso correct
 

TripleOT

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Benhogan, you are right, it probably would have been wise to have a tall PG type to develop as a 2 Way.
 

NomarsFool

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Benhogan, you are right, it probably would have been wise to have a tall PG type to develop as a 2 Way.
While Pritchard has been good, they also could have drafted someone like Theo Maledon (6'5) or traded up to get RJ Hampton (also 6'5). I've been happy enough with Pritchard because his perimeter shooting has been quite good (and Nesmith hasn't been able to provide that), but it might have been better from a long-term perspective to look at a taller, more switchable PG to develop.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There was no reason to have kept Tremont.
If you put him on truth serum, here are the reasons I think DA would say as to keeping TW.

(1) As you or someone else noted above or some other thread, with no practice time and no Maine team, they wanted to keep someone who knew the system.

(2) They see TW as having NBA skills - e.g., his ball handling and his ability to steal the ball. Both of which were on display last night.

(3) It probably gets the Cs some good will in the market to keep TW around rather than just cutting him at the start of this season.

(4) The odds of anyone on a 2-way deal making any difference on the Cs roster this year was so small as to be negligible.
 

lexrageorge

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If you put him on truth serum, here are the reasons I think DA would say as to keeping TW.

(1) As you or someone else noted above or some other thread, with no practice time and no Maine team, they wanted to keep someone who knew the system.

(2) They see TW as having NBA skills - e.g., his ball handling and his ability to steal the ball. Both of which were on display last night.

(3) It probably gets the Cs some good will in the market to keep TW around rather than just cutting him at the start of this season.

(4) The odds of anyone on a 2-way deal making any difference on the Cs roster this year was so small as to be negligible.
#4 applies to 29 other NBA teams as well. The 2-way slots are mostly development slots for the future, which was their intention when they were added to the CBA. Hard to classify any player in a 2-way slot as a "mistake".
 

benhogan

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#4 applies to 29 other NBA teams as well. The 2-way slots are mostly development slots for the future, which was their intention when they were added to the CBA. Hard to classify any player in a 2-way slot as a "mistake".
yep. I'd rather have them develop wings