Trading Chips and Keepers

Cellar-Door

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Devizier said:
Trading chips: Everyone.
Keepers: Gerald Wallace, by default.
Wallace could probably be moved to the knicks for Amare, might even get to dump more salary.
 
Honestly I'd say Sullinger, Olynyk are the only keepers since the likelihood of getting something for them that would be better for a rebuild is low.
 

wutang112878

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Bradley is going to be a chip this offseason.  His defense is really great and in the offseason he is going to look like a smaller, less crazy version of Artest.  Trading him to a contending team so they dont have to use their MLE on him will certainly be a possibility, maybe he gets you a late 1st round pick
 

Jer

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wutang112878 said:
Bradley is going to be a chip this offseason.  His defense is really great and in the offseason he is going to look like a smaller, less crazy version of Artest.  Trading him to a contending team so they dont have to use their MLE on him will certainly be a possibility, maybe he gets you a late 1st round pick
 
Sorry I don't understand the ins-and-outs on deals like this. He's a restricted free agent right? Would this be a sign-and-trade scenario?
 

wutang112878

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Forgot he was an RFA instead of a FA, so thats going to limit the possibilities but the mechanics of the trade would be the same.  Some team that is over the cap wants to add more than 1 FA and has their MLE available, they use their MLE on player A and in order to sign Bradley they sign and trade with the Celtics to get him.  Alternatively, a team might not have their MLE and want to sign and trade to get Bradley.  Bradley could basically be someones Courtney Lee, except hopefully we get more for Lee than Houston got from us
 

Devizier

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The fact that Bradley hasn't really demonstrated any aptitude for scoring, ballhandling, or court vision makes me think that his future is as a BE-level defensive specialist. Feel free to quote me when I'm wrong in five years.
 

nighthob

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No, I think this is exactly right. And as a defensive specialist at the 1, which further reduces the market for him. There aren't a lot of teams with big guards that can run an offense from the 2 spot. If Boston were to land Dante Exum, Marcus Smart or Andy Harrison in the draft I imagine they could give it a shot with Bradley at the 1 and the offense running out of the big guard spot. Alternatively their options are Houston, Miami, and other teams that don't run the offense out of the one.
 

Cellar-Door

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wutang112878 said:
Bradley is going to be a chip this offseason.  His defense is really great and in the offseason he is going to look like a smaller, less crazy version of Artest.  Trading him to a contending team so they dont have to use their MLE on him will certainly be a possibility, maybe he gets you a late 1st round pick
Not really, Artest was a really good player, he was a decent scorer, decent rebounder and pretty good passer that size enabled him to guard anyone from 1-4 on the perimeter at the smae point in his career. Avery can guard ones, most smaller 2s and that is it. He also is a bad rebounder, bad passer and bad ball handler. He's not even close to prime Artest, he's not even Tony Allen or Thabo since he can't guard 3s.
I love his defense, but with his size unless he brings something else to the table he's a 7th man on any team that is decent.
 

nighthob

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Cellar-Door said:
Not really, Artest was a really good player, he was a decent scorer, good rebounder and that size enabled him to guard anyone from 1-4 on the perimeter. Avery can guard ones, most smaller 2s and that is it. He also is a bad rebounder, bad passer and bad ball handler. He's not even close to prime Artest, he's not even Tony Allen or Thabo since he can't guard 3s.
I love his defense, but with his size unless he brings something else to the table he's a 7th man on any team that is decent.
 
I'll disagree in the sense that I think he'd be fine starting for someone like Houston, Miami or even the Lakers after Bryant comes back.
 

ishmael

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Cellar-Door said:
I love his defense, but with his size unless he brings something else to the table he's a 7th man on any team that is decent.
Yep, I feel like Avery is destined to be the rich man's Lindsey Hunter. Back in 2004 and 2005, Hunter was a weapon for the Pistons off the bench, despite the fact that he couldn't shoot to save his life.
 

radsoxfan

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ishmael said:
Yep, I feel like Avery is destined to be the rich man's Lindsey Hunter. Back in 2004 and 2005, Hunter was a weapon for the Pistons off the bench, despite the fact that he couldn't shoot to save his life.
 
I'm not sure how "rich" he will end up being.  I think its a fair comparison, but Hunter was probably more capable as a passer/ballhandler (though still nothing special).  He could play PG in a pinch, while Avery has showed zero ability to do that.  Bradley may turn into a poor man's Linsey Hunter.... i.e. not all that valuable.
 

Kliq

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Bradley's value might be slightly diminished because there are not a great amount of elite scoring SGs in the league right now. Harden, Wade, Kobe (when he comes back), and maybe George (if you consider him a two) are really the only guys who are elite scorers. The demand for a guy that can only guard 1s and 2s is not as high when there are only a few 2s worth putting an elite defender on.
 

nighthob

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Kliq said:
Bradley's value might be slightly diminished because there are not a great amount of elite scoring SGs in the league right now. Harden, Wade, Kobe (when he comes back), and maybe George (if you consider him a two) are really the only guys who are elite scorers. The demand for a guy that can only guard 1s and 2s is not as high when there are only a few 2s worth putting an elite defender on.
 
Bradley can't really defend the SG spot, though. Guards taller than 6'3" or so give him fits. That's what diminishes his value. His one skill is to terrorize ballhandlers his own size. So he has to defend the 1 spot to have any value, and that puts a real limit on his market because there are only a handful of teams that run their offense out of another position and those are the only teams that have a need for him.
 

Sprowl

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Bradley needs Rondo in every dimension of the game. He needs Rondo's pass for the backdoor layup to be an effective offensive player, and he needs Rondo to play free safety while Bradley hounds to ballhandler.
 

wutang112878

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I have to take back my Bradley value determination.  I took at look at the 'supply' curve, and there are a lot of FA options that are much more valuable than Bradley who should use up most of the cap space and MLEs available.  By the time Bradley floats up to the top of the 'players available' list, I dont think there is even going to be a team willing to go to the MLE for him. 
 
Egg on face.
 

nighthob

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Sprowl said:
Bradley needs Rondo in every dimension of the game. He needs Rondo's pass for the backdoor layup to be an effective offensive player, and he needs Rondo to play free safety while Bradley hounds to ballhandler.
 
Well, really any guard that can handle would do. Basically teams with SGs torture Boston regardless because neither Rondo nor Bradley can defend the two guard spot. 
 

Devizier

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I wonder if Thibideau would press for a Rondo reunion? Dunno if a trade could work, but it makes sense on some level.
 

wutang112878

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Are you suggesting a Rondo short-term replacement?  There are so many complications with that.  There has been a big rift between Tibs and the GM regarding personnel and Tibs role in selecting it and the GMs role in selecting his coaches.  ESPN is reporting that his meniscus was reattached instead of removed which is why he is out for the year instead of just a month or so.  They are also reporting the team was involved in that decision, in which case they are really, really committed to Rose long term.  And if they are committed to Rose long term do they want to spend assets on a short-term solution at PG and possibly start a PG starter controversy?
 
Getting to the trade specifically, I dont see anything on their roster that would really help our rebuilding process unless they are owed some 1st rounder.  So it would most likely have to be a 3 team deal, and overall I just dont see what the Bulls have in excess to give up for Rondo?  I bet they could turn Noah into some pieces we might want, but without Noah they wont be particularly good. 
 
The intriguing option might be a Rose/Rondo trade.  Could Danny get Rose at a discounted price for Rondo & maybe the Clips pick?  That trade could be very interesting.
 

Kliq

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Rose is not going anywhere, even if his knees are made out of paper-mache.
 
With Rose out, the Bulls might try to tank this season away, and that goes with moving Deng and Boozer. Their core is set with Rose/Noah/Butler, but Deng and Boozer are not going to be resigned by Chicago, and if they want to tank this season, there team will end up being Noah, Butler and Kirk Hinrich.
 
Where do Deng and Boozer go? A desperate NY team. Deng and Boozer to the Knicks for Shumpert+Amar'e Stoudemire's corpse and a small contract for tax reasons, say, Hardaway Jr. The Bulls get to tank while acquiring a decent wing man, and the Knicks get help on defense and rebounding.
 

wutang112878

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Why is Rose untouchable?  Superstars are actually traded a lot, and his knees should give Chicago some serious concern at this point. 
 
I just cant see Boozer and his $17M salary in 14/15 getting traded anywhere, the Bulls would have to take on a worse contract in return
 

Devizier

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I dont see anything on their roster that would really help our rebuilding process unless they are owed some 1st rounder.
 
They are, in fact, owed Charlotte's top-ten protected first rounder this year. Given that the Bobcats are currently the number 6 seed in the EC, chances are that pick moves.
 
The question is, would the Bulls trade Deng in such a deal? The Celtics would presumably have to include Green in the return package.
 
Alternatively, would the Celtics accept a deal structured around Taj Gibson's kind of crappy contract?
 

wutang112878

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Devizier said:
 
They are, in fact, owed Charlotte's top-ten protected first rounder this year. Given that the Bobcats are currently the number 6 seed in the EC, chances are that pick moves.
 
The question is, would the Bulls trade Deng in such a deal? The Celtics would presumably have to include Green in the return package.
 
Alternatively, would the Celtics accept a deal structured around Taj Gibson's kind of crappy contract?
 
If they trade Rondo and Green the only things on the roster resembling chips of value, and they get Taj Gibson, an expiring Deng and a late first in return then Danny is going to have some explaining to do. 
 

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You foget that the Celtics would also be acquiring Rose's two bum knees and $60MM in contract obligations.
 

wutang112878

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I thought we were talking a rent-a-Rondo situation.
 
I already have my car warming up to drive Rondo and Green for the out for the year Rose, and I will sit there until I can drive Wiggins over to Waltham
 

Devizier

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Charlotte's pick is more likely to be a mid-teens type, and the Bulls can ship one of their own if necessary.
 
Jeff Green doesn't have a whole lot of value in my book. He's basically Chandler Parsons post-extension, and lots of teams would rather have guys like that on their rookie deals than on their free agency deals. The kinds of teams that would be looking into him are those that have a need. Rondo has even less value, given that he's missed so much time and there are so many good point guards in the current NBA. Not his fault, but it is what it is. 
 

Kliq

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wutang112878 said:
 
 
I just cant see Boozer and his $17M salary in 14/15 getting traded anywhere, the Bulls would have to take on a worse contract in return
 
Yeah, that is why they are taking on Amar'e. The Knicks want to win right now, so they will take Boozer's contract. By shipping Deng AND Boozer for Amar'e and some small contracts, the excess of Amar'e contract is degraded. The Bulls can level out this year for a better pick, and the Knicks get defense and rebounding.
 

nighthob

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Kliq said:
 
Yeah, that is why they are taking on Amar'e. The Knicks want to win right now, so they will take Boozer's contract. By shipping Deng AND Boozer for Amar'e and some small contracts, the excess of Amar'e contract is degraded. The Bulls can level out this year for a better pick, and the Knicks get defense and rebounding.
 
Blowing their team up on the offhand chance that they might miss the playoffs in a year where 36 wins probably gets them in seems rather counterproductive for Chicago. Because you take the real risk of being rewarded with the 15th pick and then the task of having to reassemble the supporting cast you just traded away.
 

Kliq

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nighthob said:
 
Blowing their team up on the offhand chance that they might miss the playoffs in a year where 36 wins probably gets them in seems rather counterproductive for Chicago. Because you take the real risk of being rewarded with the 15th pick and then the task of having to reassemble the supporting cast you just traded away.
 
Deng and Boozer are most likely not going to be around past 2014-2015 anyways, so you might as well get something for them. They are not winning the Championship this year, so their only hope would be to hold on to Boozer and Deng, hope Rose comes back healthy, and then you have a one year window to win the championship. If they traded Deng and Boozer, they could improve their draft stock this year, and have cap room for 2015.
 

nighthob

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Except that if they fail they're kind of screwed. Because then Rose has a shitty supporting cast while Amar'e is weighing down the books and they're essentially punting one his healthy seasons.
 

Kliq

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nighthob said:
Except that if they fail they're kind of screwed. Because then Rose has a shitty supporting cast while Amar'e is weighing down the books and they're essentially punting one his healthy seasons.
 
No, Rose will still have Butler, Noah, Sumpert and Gibson. Amar'e comes off the books in 2015, so then you can do some free agent shopping to improve the cast.
 

wutang112878

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Kliq said:
 
No, Rose will still have Butler, Noah, Sumpert and Gibson. Amar'e comes off the books in 2015, so then you can do some free agent shopping to improve the cast.
 
In 15/16 the Bulls have ~$47M tied up in Rose, Noah, Gibson, Snell and Teague.  Shumpert and Butler are free agents after the 14/15 season, so they would have to be resigned.  Lets say you get each of them for $5M each, thats $57M + $2.5M in empty roster cap holds, so you are around $60M with barely any cap room.  Not that its a horrible core, but you are locked into that core and really only have the MLE to use to sign FAs
 

Cellar-Door

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wutang112878 said:
 
In 15/16 the Bulls have ~$47M tied up in Rose, Noah, Gibson, Snell and Teague.  Shumpert and Butler are free agents after the 14/15 season, so they would have to be resigned.  Lets say you get each of them for $5M each, thats $57M + $2.5M in empty roster cap holds, so you are around $60M with barely any cap room.  Not that its a horrible core, but you are locked into that core and really only have the MLE to use to sign FAs
They will also have whoever they draft with their own 2 draft picks in that time, and the Charlotte pick.
That is 10 players for around the cap and assuming even one of the draft picks pans out a very solid 8 man rotation.
Of course if Rose is never the same he's a $19M albatross, but if he is close to himself when he comes back that is a contending team.
 

Kliq

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wutang112878 said:
 
In 15/16 the Bulls have ~$47M tied up in Rose, Noah, Gibson, Snell and Teague.  Shumpert and Butler are free agents after the 14/15 season, so they would have to be resigned.  Lets say you get each of them for $5M each, thats $57M + $2.5M in empty roster cap holds, so you are around $60M with barely any cap room.  Not that its a horrible core, but you are locked into that core and really only have the MLE to use to sign FAs
 
The way I see it, Chicago has two options:
 
Option A: Hold onto Boozer and Deng till next year, pray that Rose's knee holds up and make a run at it next year. Boozer and Deng are good enough to help the team get into the 4th-5th seed like they did last year, which will push you back in the draft. After 2014-2015, you are cutting ties with them and and probably working towards signing Butler and Shumpert, or maybe only one of them. Perhaps you use your MLE on a veteran contributor, like a backup PG or an experienced big man. Next year's draft is loaded, so hopefully you draft correctly and get another solid rotation player.
 
Option B: Trade Deng and Boozer, and bottom out this season. Without Rose you are not winning the title this year so you might as well try and sneak into the top-10. With your draft picks, a returning Rose and Shumpert, Gibson, Noah, Butler and Shumpert, paired with a healthy Rose, you are set for the future.
 
The options are bascially: Do you hold onto your guys and make a big run in 2014, then play it by year from there OR Do you let your guys walk, move up in the draft, and build more long term.
 
Edit: I forgot to mention that Chicago would also be getting Tim Hardaway Jr. as well from NY, if that means anything.
 

nighthob

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They won't be bad enough to bottom out. Then they'll be in the playoffs, get the 15th pick as a reward, and need to find a SF to replace Deng as Rose leads them back into the top five without a lot of hope to make it out of the second round. The east has been demolished by injury this year, so they would need to play 20 games under .500 in a conference where the few teams trying to win are so crippled by injury that they can't. Hell, Boston is playing like flapdoodle only the east is so bad that even at .333 they're only a couple of games out of the playoffs.
 

Kliq

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I know the East is horrific, but a healthy Chicago was not neccesarily setting the world on fire, and in their first Rose-less game, they lost to Utah. A team whose offense revolves around Noah, Shumpert and Butler would be pretty bad, right? I definitley think they could slip into the top-10.
 
I see your point though, with their defense, they could still play well enough, so it may not be worth the risk.
 

Jer

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Over in the "Win" thread, I mentioned Crawford who should be shopped around. All the elements are there...
- He's playing well
- His salary is low
- He's on a 1 year deal
 
How about this?
 
BOS trades Crawford to ATL for John Jenkins & the rights to swap Brooklyn's 2014 1st pick.
 
Trade Machine says the salaries would work.
Jenkins doesn't seem like someone very important to Atlanta
 
 
With Chicago out, Atlanta's got to think they could grab that #3 spot in the east. If they play their cards right, an injury to LeBron could have them sneaking into the finals.
 

Jer

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I just assume that they share my point of view of Brooklyn's prospects.... this level of suck is unsustainable. I fully expect Brooklyn to win 35 games and sneak into the playoffs. If for no other reason than the east sucks and other teams will be tanking aggressively. Brooklyn has no motivation to lose.
 

Brickowski

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There is a zero chance that Atlanta trades away the Brooklyn pick swap, especially for a guy like Jordan Crawford. They're sitting on a gold mine and they know it.
Yes, although it would be delicious irony if Brooklyn and Atlanta both missed the playoffs with identical records.  If Horford or Teague were to go down, Atlanta could miss the playoffs. And even with those two, I wasn't exactly impressed by what I saw the other evening.
 

Jer

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Sources: Heat seek backcourt trade
 
Worth sending them Crawford or Avery for a future pick? If Lebron leaves town and Wade's knees get worse, the Heat could suck in a hurry.
 
The only trick is this deal they made with Cleveland:
 
2015 first round draft pick to Cleveland
Miami's 1st round pick to Cleveland protected for selections 1-10 in 2015 or 1-10 in 2016 or unprotected in 2017
 
Does that mean they could trade us the protected range of those picks? Would they pull the trigger if they thought this would put them over the edge for one last title?
 

southshoresoxfan

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If I'm Danny I'm working the Houston phone lines and fast.  Houston is looking to ship Asik between Dec 15 and Dec 19 (1st day players that signed new deals can be dealt/Last day player can be dealt then re-packaged before the trade DL)
 
Jeff Green for Asik works for Houston.  They need a quick 4 to pair with Howard who is efficient from 3PT range.  Danny can then use Asik either this season as a chip at the DL (to Portland perhaps) and hang on and use the balloon in Asiks contract as a 15mil expiring chip at the deadline next season or this off-season.
 
Would make the C's worse this year, and able to accumulate more assets going forward.
 
Win-win.
 
Edited with link to story:
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10090433/houston-rockets-put-omer-asik-trade-block
 

ZMart100

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It's not a 15 million dollar expiring contract for cap purposes, it's 8.4. He gets paid 15 million. See the last paragraph of the article you cited.
 

Jer

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southshoresoxfan said:
If I'm Danny I'm working the Houston phone lines and fast.  Houston is looking to ship Asik between Dec 15 and Dec 19 (1st day players that signed new deals can be dealt/Last day player can be dealt then re-packaged before the trade DL)
 
Jeff Green for Asik works for Houston.  They need a quick 4 to pair with Howard who is efficient from 3PT range.  Danny can then use Asik either this season as a chip at the DL (to Portland perhaps) and hang on and use the balloon in Asiks contract as a 15mil expiring chip at the deadline next season or this off-season.
 
Would make the C's worse this year, and able to accumulate more assets going forward.
 
Win-win.
 
Edited with link to story:
 
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10090433/houston-rockets-put-omer-asik-trade-block
We discussed this a bit a couple of weeks ago. The two biggest take-aways for me were...
- Green at the 4 is a stretch. He's a more natural 3. He can't defend the 4 at all.
- It might be tough to showcase Asik to be flipped while we're also developing our existing big men. Asik is a bigger chip for sure, but you might leave untapped value on the table with Olynyk and Faverani.
 
If Houston would actually accept Green, I'd probably still pull the trigger. Asik is still an easier asset to move and you're bound to lose a few more games with such a lopsided roster. Ideally they would flip Asik quickly though.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Jer said:
We discussed this a bit a couple of weeks ago. The two biggest take-aways for me were...
- Green at the 4 is a stretch. He's a more natural 3. He can't defend the 4 at all.
- It might be tough to showcase Asik to be flipped while we're also developing our existing big men. Asik is a bigger chip for sure, but you might leave untapped value on the table with Olynyk and Faverani.
 
If Houston would actually accept Green I'd probably still pull the trigger. Asik is still an easier asset to move and you're bound to lose a few more games with such a lopsided roster. Ideally they would flip Asik quickly though.
 
Dwight Howard covers up a TON including their 3 and 2 currently defensively (Parsons and Harder are comically bad).  He can cover for Green esp in an NBA where small-ball is becoming more and more the thing.  
 
Faverani and Olynyk? Not even considering those two as assets right now.  Asik is far superior as a defensive anchor and rebounder and has a MUCH higher trade value in the league.  If it takes more than Green i'd still do it, as I think a desperate deadline team lacking interior defense will bend over backwards to give you a nice haul at the deadline.
 

southshoresoxfan

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ZMart100 said:
It's not a 15 million dollar expiring contract for cap purposes, it's 8.4. He gets paid 15 million. See the last paragraph of the article you cited.
 
Still a nice expiring deal to have as a fall-back plan if you get "stuck" with him.  I like Asik's game.  
 

southshoresoxfan

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Lin-Harden-Parsons-Green is a perfect "Howard" team.  Surrounded by good shooting and he can cover up for their defensive defeciencies (of which they have plenty).  Call him up Danny!
 

Cellar-Door

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Courtney Lee to MIA makes a lot of sense, something like Anthony and the Philly 1st plus salary fill (Lewis or after 12/15 Mason Jr) for Lee? That pick is a borderline 1st (top 14 protected in 2014 and 2015, if not sent in those 2 years it is Philly's 2nd in 15 and 2nd in 2016) Anthony is mostly useless for the Celtics if they plan to use C minutes to develop guys, but a year shorter than Lee and less $ per year, so it is moveable at best, easy to eat at worst.
Asik I think makes less sense as I don't think I'd rather have Asik than Green for the same cap figure, especially since Asik costs more actual money. Also I'm not sure Green is what HOU is looking for
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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So maybe there should be a new thread on this but I will be interested in seeing what DA does with Crawford when Rondo comes back.  I haven't seen much but Crawford seems to be plating at a high level and his ability to create his own shot (particularly pull-up mid-range jumper) at the end of the shot clock looks to be important to this team.
 
And it seems that having the ball in his hands curbs some of his bad shot taking.
 
Can't see him and Rondo playing together.  Is DA willing to lose a few games to find out?
 

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
So maybe there should be a new thread on this but I will be interested in seeing what DA does with Crawford when Rondo comes back.  I haven't seen much but Crawford seems to be plating at a high level and his ability to create his own shot (particularly pull-up mid-range jumper) at the end of the shot clock looks to be important to this team.
 
And it seems that having the ball in his hands curbs some of his bad shot taking.
 
Can't see him and Rondo playing together.  Is DA willing to lose a few games to find out?
Why can't they play together?  Crawford doesn't dominate the ball any more than Pierce did.  Also, Stevens has installed a motion offense which is very different than what they were doing under Rivers.
 
I expect that when Rondo returns Crawford will be used off the bench for instant offense, just as teams have used the other Crawford (Jamal).
 
Crawford is starting to get it.  He is a better player now than he was even 10 games ago. At the beginning of the year I hated watching him, but if he keeps improving he's going to get a good payday this Summer, if not in Boston then somewhere else.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Brickowski said:
Crawford is starting to get it.  He is a better player now than he was even 10 games ago. At the beginning of the year I hated watching him, but if he keeps improving he's going to get a good payday this Summer, if not in Boston then somewhere else.
I was about to post the same thing. Statistically, he has improved everywhere - 2 pt shooting, 3 point shooting, a very respectable assist to turnover ratio. He still has some warts but you gotta give credit where credit is due, to him and to Stevens for coaching him up.