Trade Deadline 2023 General Thread
- Thread starter DeadlySplitter
- Start date
Maybe not, but both were 2022 draftees and already top 100 guys, flying through the minors. Also they don't need to be added to the 40 man for years still if the team chooses, so even more team control than most prospects.
Out of curiosity, if those 2 guys were on the open market what would be the winning bid combined? More than 50M? I honestly don't know, just stuck me as high for good but not great prospects. But I could be wrong.
Verlander is having a good year so unlike a lot of high priced trade/semi-salary dumps, there isn't a ton of excess fat on his deal right now. He's probably worth close to that, so basically the Mets just gave Houston 54M for those 2 players.
Right, but Steve Cohen does not care about losing money, he is a lifelong nutty Mets fan and now his team has four more top 100 prospects because he signed Scherzer and Verlander for so much and then picked up all that money going forward. Your point about what the open market bidding would be for those prospects is interesting but not really relevant because that doesn't happen. The ways for teams to add young talent are very limited now, tight spending limits in both the draft and internationally, Cohen has found a pretty new way (I am not sure Bowie Kuhn would allow it but Manfred doesn't give a shit).
For sure, obviously he’s playing by different rules than some of the other owners which is fine.
I’m not saying it was a bad move by the Mets given their owner’s $, just saying I think other owners are realizing they can take advantage of it to their own benefit.
A lot of teams would trade a couple top 50-100 range prospects that may never make the majors for the right to sign a proven FA on a short term contract for 50M below market value.
It's an interesting move but remember - only Cohen can do it because he doesn't care about the luxury tax. For example, Mets are paying $9M of his salary this year and something like $27M next year. At face value, that's $36M, which is steep for a prospect, but assuming the Mets are in the luxury tax next year, they pay (according to Rosenthal) 90% tax this year and 110% tax mext year so that's really like $17M + $57M = $74M.
Mets will be paying minimum $62M next year for players not on their roster before taxes. That's a steep way of buying prospects . Not a lot of owners are going to do that.
That "market value" is something artificially inflated by Cohen to begin with though. Neither Verlander nor Scherzer look to be remotely worth what he payed them to begin with.
Agree on that, but Verlander is on a short term deal and has continued to pitch well.
I would bet if he was a FA at this moment he would get something approaching what's left on his current contract on the open market.
I don't think the 54M subsidy is primarily because Verlander is way overpaid, it's mostly because Cohen is buying prospects (at pretty high costs).
I dunno, Verlander has a 3.81 FIP, driven by average peripherals (0.9 HR, 3.0 BB, 7.7 K). Still a really strong spin rate but he’s getting hit pretty hard- 32 percentile in exit velocity and 44th in hard hit. Granted he’s been better lately and is a HOFer so I can understand the appeal but given his age and his decline in stuff, I wouldn’t be comfortable giving him what he’s owed and I doubt any teams were.
The bigger question in my mind is whether Cohen is really that patient. If the Mets defy expectations in 2024 and are in contention in late July, does Cohen tell Eppler to trade all those prospects for some veteran magic beans?
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I think this is being overlooked. It used to be that all trades where significant money chages hands were reviewed by the League Office. I mean talent is going both ways but yeah, this was soething that was at least lokked at before.
Would appear so. But I remember these trades being held up for some time while the league reviewed them. I don't think anyone mentioned that now.
I saw a tweet about it yesterday, that the league had to approve the cash and did, but I can’t find it now.
Now I am thinking Cohen will turn around and just throw endless money at all of Ohtani and Yamamoto and Urias and get all three if he can. He is definitely going to test the limits of this CBA, up after 2026 and I bet there will be multiple Cohen rules added next time.
Also not saying we're there yet with either of these guys, especially Verlander, but at some point even the greatest pitchers get to Pedro on the Phillies/Smoltz on the Red Sox territory. FWIW, Scherzer/Verlander are 39 and 40 now, Pedro was 37 with PHI and Smoltz 42 with BOS.
Maybe. But Cohen threw a ton of money around this past off-season, and ended up with a lousy team and an empty stadium. If it happens again, I imagine he will get bored and find something else to do. Eventually he will want to see some results- billionaires tend to not be the most patient.
No doubt about it, the cliff could come at any moment.
But regardless of what anyone thinks of Verlander now, it’s clear Houston is getting him MASSIVELY subsidized compared to his current market value.
30M, 40M, 50M… hard to say. And if one of those prospects turns into a good major leaguer it’ll probably be worth it. But it just struck me as a lot to pay for non elite prospects.
He is a crazy Mets fan who can afford to lose hundreds of millions a year and have it be a rounding error. Imagine if, for instance, @JohnnyTheBone all of a sudden had a net worth of $18B and owned BOS, do you think if his first few years of maniacally spending didn't work out, he would give up, sell the team and find something else to spend his time and money on? That's what I think Cohen is like.
Yeah, I think this is much more the old-school sports team owner mentality. Even if he completely wastingly blows $100M a year on the Mets, that's what, the equivalent of $10k to someone with a $1M net worth?
He's 67, and assuming he doesn't think he's invincible probably wants to win in the next 10 years... I can easily see him wasting $5B to take a shot at it
I’m surprised more billionaires don’t do this. I guess a lot of them aren’t necessarily liquid, but if I had all that money I’d rather be buying rings than super yachts and tenth vacation houses. Those rings are the biggest flex out there.
Scherzer said in the Athletic that the Mets GM said the plan was for a multi year rebuild probably targeting 2026 though possibly 2025. The GM also said that they aren't going after big names this off season. I have a feeling they will want to reset the tax, though I don't know how possible that is with all the money they are sending out.
Rosenthal reporting that ERod’s agent asked for an additional guaranteed year at 20M to waive the no-trade to the Dodgers, rebuffed. The teams tried to frantically save the deal with a third team but couldn’t get it done, despite agreeing to terms on Monday night.
https://theathletic.com/4745234/2023/08/03/eduardo-rodriguez-blocked-trade-tigers-dodgers-details/?source=user_shared_article
ERod also did not respond to Mookie / JDM texts.
View: https://twitter.com/FabianArdaya/status/1686923733649526784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1686923733649526784%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=file%3A%2F%2F%2Fvar%2Fcontainers%2FBundle%2FApplication%2F6C84CA19-D671-464B-84E5-BD07756B20BE%2Ftheathletic-ios.app%2FAthleticUI_AthleticUI.bundle%2F
https://theathletic.com/4745234/2023/08/03/eduardo-rodriguez-blocked-trade-tigers-dodgers-details/?source=user_shared_article
ERod also did not respond to Mookie / JDM texts.
View: https://twitter.com/FabianArdaya/status/1686923733649526784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1686923733649526784%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=file%3A%2F%2F%2Fvar%2Fcontainers%2FBundle%2FApplication%2F6C84CA19-D671-464B-84E5-BD07756B20BE%2Ftheathletic-ios.app%2FAthleticUI_AthleticUI.bundle%2F
Flattered to be mentioned, so I'll share a few thoughts. I actually prefer homegrown talent. One of the reasons 1978 and 1986 was so painful was that I grew up rooting for those guys. Those teams had an identity. Rice. Evans. Fisk. Lynn. Yaz. Boggs. Clemens. Hurst. We watched them break into the bigs, and blossom into superstars. I was emotionally invested. Hiring mercenaries never felt right to me. I was a 9-year old rabid baseball fan when I watched Mike Torrez win World Series games with the Yankees in 1977. If felt weird and unnatural to see him in a Red Sox uniform the next season.
Baseball has changed a lot over the years, obviously. Sign me up for Team Hybrid Approach. I wouldn't have done what Cohen did. It almost never works.
I'd be interested in a discussion of *why* it almost never works. (I'm not disagreeing.)
Unless you're the @#%*ing '97 Marlins. Then you beat the team that designed the blueprint for building a homegrown winner, extending the young guys and adding free agents to fill the holes.
@#%*ing Marlins!
@#%*ing Marlins!