Tottenham Hotspur 24/25: To Dare is to Didgeridoo
- Thread starter DJnVa
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I'm cautiously optimistic about the overall project, not so optimistic about the season but hoping we can sneak a cup trophy, and extremely unexcited for the rest of December.
The midfield play was so abysmal yesterday, and given their CB injury situation, they need Bissouma and Sarr to both be very, very good. Not only did they each give away bad penalties, but they were almost non-existent in terms of the offensive attack, finding it very difficult to string together progressive passes that would punish Chelsea for playing so aggressively. After the 30 minute mark or so, Chelsea really dominated the game, with Spurs unable to really find any sustained possession of the ball and instead conceding to Chelsea's pressure, as they hammered away for an equalizer and eventually a winner.
Missing Bentancur I think really hurt--out of the regular holding midfielders he is our best progressive passer and would have been a much better fit than either Bissouma or Sarr. I would have also gotten Madders into the game earlier--they desperately needed another player in the center of the pitch who could make a turn and move the ball forward without getting into trouble
I don't really blame Ange for anything, in general I find blaming managers to be too common of a case for fans, but the direction the team is heading in over the last month or so, taking away the historic City result, is not encouraging.
Missing Bentancur I think really hurt--out of the regular holding midfielders he is our best progressive passer and would have been a much better fit than either Bissouma or Sarr. I would have also gotten Madders into the game earlier--they desperately needed another player in the center of the pitch who could make a turn and move the ball forward without getting into trouble
I don't really blame Ange for anything, in general I find blaming managers to be too common of a case for fans, but the direction the team is heading in over the last month or so, taking away the historic City result, is not encouraging.
Copying from the other thread:
Some lower competition in Rangers and then Southampton could really help galvanize the group, or it could raise the alarms to new levels.
Son's pace is an issue, but it's really the quickness and decision-making that has me worried. Finishing skills never really go, but the ability to create a yard and the decision-making calculus that players make based on their abilities sometimes never adjust to their new realities. Son likely needs to move inside so he can become a 2-touch striker--receive and hit--to remain useful. His days receiving the ball wide, beating a defender, and then creating havoc and goals are likely numbered. That said, everyone looks bad right now, so I don't want to read too much into it.
Some lower competition in Rangers and then Southampton could really help galvanize the group, or it could raise the alarms to new levels.
It's funny with Son. The other Spurs site I frequent has a weird thing going where whenever he plays wing there's a sizable contingent of people convinced he absolutely can no longer play the wing, and when he's up top there is a similar contingent absolutely convinced he can't play up top, and meanwhile he continues to be near the top of the club's charts for G+A every year. He's certainly closer to the end of his time at Spurs than the beginning (they bought multiple young wingers for a reason), but he's still pretty indispensable to the team as it is now. That said, the same circumstances that are making the entire team look bad (thin squad forcing insufficient rest from the guys who are playing) is gonna hit the 30+ dude worse than most.
Rangers have a Cup Final against Celtic at the weekend which might mean some players are rested for that match. They're on 10 points in the EL standings, (same points as Spurs, a point ahead of Man Utd) and might look at the Spurs match as a free hit. There's no love for Ange in Govan so it could be a feisty encounter. Conversely i would have no problem if a few Rangers players hobble off with knocks on Thursday and Ange gets another one over The Kings 11.
I am keen to hear what new chants 50,000 royalists have for Ange.
I am keen to hear what new chants 50,000 royalists have for Ange.
1) The lack of depth is killing them. They have only four CBs in the squad and they're all injured right now, such that they've been playing an 18-year-old midfielder at CB. A lot of the players look exhausted, and the pressing intensity has notably dipped. Forster is solid shot-stopper but a mess with the ball at his feet. Etc.
2) There's not enough quality at several positions. They badly need a good midfield passer from deep; maybe Bentancur can be that, but between his injuries and suspensions he hasn't shown it yet. Udogie has regressed badly this season. Kulusevski and Maddison are their two best creative players, but both are natural #10s and it's tricky to play them both at the same time.
3) They're probably a bit better than than they seem right now. They've had a very weird distribution of results this year. All of their seven wins have been by 2+ goals, with 6 of them by 3+ goals. Meanwhile, 8 of their 9 losses are by 1 goal; they probably deserved to get at least some points from most of those games. It's been a very strange season.
2) There's not enough quality at several positions. They badly need a good midfield passer from deep; maybe Bentancur can be that, but between his injuries and suspensions he hasn't shown it yet. Udogie has regressed badly this season. Kulusevski and Maddison are their two best creative players, but both are natural #10s and it's tricky to play them both at the same time.
3) They're probably a bit better than than they seem right now. They've had a very weird distribution of results this year. All of their seven wins have been by 2+ goals, with 6 of them by 3+ goals. Meanwhile, 8 of their 9 losses are by 1 goal; they probably deserved to get at least some points from most of those games. It's been a very strange season.
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I thought yesterday they were very hesitant to give the ball away--understandably so given how frequently they are giving up goals on the counter at the moment. That is not Ange ball. There were several times during the game where I felt like a player got into a promising position with the ball, and had a chance to make an incisive pass, but instead resisted, held on to the ball for too long, and allowed Forest to get into a stronger defensive shape. It happened to Udogie several times. The result was a lot of fruitless corner kicks, which without Romero and Mickey, are not nearly as threatening.
They are also really lacking in winger/striker quality as well. The current healthy options (unfortunately including Son in his current form) are probably the worst I've seen at Spurs since I started following ~20 years ago.
Four CBs (counting Davies) is a problem that should have been known going into the season and simply wasn't resolved. It's a stroke of terrible luck that literally all of them are hurt, but I've been looking at other PL rosters and they all seem to have 5 - 6.
As for winger/striker depth, there are 3 guy meant to be on that depth chart who are all hurt as well. Richarlison being a lock for 2500+ minutes the three seasons before coming to Spurs and so far totaling that many league minutes in 2.5 seasons with Spurs has been an absolute killer.
Injury lists have always been weirdly underemphasized in European football coverage, and the injury list along with the questionable squad building decisions over the summer leaving a threadbare squad getting ground to paste over December is pretty much the entire story for me.
As for winger/striker depth, there are 3 guy meant to be on that depth chart who are all hurt as well. Richarlison being a lock for 2500+ minutes the three seasons before coming to Spurs and so far totaling that many league minutes in 2.5 seasons with Spurs has been an absolute killer.
Injury lists have always been weirdly underemphasized in European football coverage, and the injury list along with the questionable squad building decisions over the summer leaving a threadbare squad getting ground to paste over December is pretty much the entire story for me.
Yeah, Richarlison and Wilson Odobert were supposed to play major roles in the attack and they've both been hurt the whole season.
The squad is thin everywhere. It's bad luck that all the CBs are hurt at the same time, but Spurs don't have any positions where they can afford to fade a couple significant injuries. They did a good job over the summer getting a lot of dead weight off the books, but they didn't replace those bodies.
The squad is thin everywhere. It's bad luck that all the CBs are hurt at the same time, but Spurs don't have any positions where they can afford to fade a couple significant injuries. They did a good job over the summer getting a lot of dead weight off the books, but they didn't replace those bodies.
Bump for winning the first leg against Pool yesterday. Gives us a puncher's chance to reach the final, but Pool will bring it hard in the return leg at Anfield next month. Shout out to the new keeper--he's really going to push Vicario and I love having 2 excellent keepers. No way they can keep both beyond next season. I expect they'll do the 'cup keeper' approach, but the question is who gets the EPL! Hope Ben10 is OK--that looked awful.
Just looking at the schedule, I'm shocked the League put the NLD midweek. That's something the NFL--despite all of its awfulness--would never stand for.
Quite an important month coming up--FA Cup tie on the weekend (Tamworth from the 5th division National League), NLD next Wednesday, and then the remaining 2 UEL group matches (against Hoffenheim and Elfsborg). Spurs do need to push for a top 8 UEL finish to avoid adding to the fixture congestion, but I'm heartened a bit by the fact that Hoffenheim and Elfsborg have negative GD but both are also going to push to make the playoff and likely will treat these games as priorities too. Hoffenheim are in a relegation battle so maybe they'll focus on Bundesliga matches but Elfsborg is 7th in the Swedish league and I imagine advancing in UEL is much more lucrative to them.
Just looking at the schedule, I'm shocked the League put the NLD midweek. That's something the NFL--despite all of its awfulness--would never stand for.
Quite an important month coming up--FA Cup tie on the weekend (Tamworth from the 5th division National League), NLD next Wednesday, and then the remaining 2 UEL group matches (against Hoffenheim and Elfsborg). Spurs do need to push for a top 8 UEL finish to avoid adding to the fixture congestion, but I'm heartened a bit by the fact that Hoffenheim and Elfsborg have negative GD but both are also going to push to make the playoff and likely will treat these games as priorities too. Hoffenheim are in a relegation battle so maybe they'll focus on Bundesliga matches but Elfsborg is 7th in the Swedish league and I imagine advancing in UEL is much more lucrative to them.
The less said about the Tamworth game the better. NLD on Wednesdsay.
FA Cup 4th Round draw is Villa away. Not easy at all, but we've matched up well against them in recent meetings. Man City lite if you will.
FA Cup 4th Round draw is Villa away. Not easy at all, but we've matched up well against them in recent meetings. Man City lite if you will.
Agreed. The thing I'll say is that the next 2-3 weeks of fixtures are much easier and the ship needs to get straightened out or Ange will get the sack.
@Everton
@Hoffenheim (currently in relegation zone in Bundesliga)
vs. LCFC
vs. Elfsborg
(2/2) @Brentford
Getting Richy back (on the bench anyway) is a boost. Ben10, Romero, VDV, and Davies are all expected back before the end of January. These next 5 fixtures are pivotal at many levels.
It's a lost league season with the injury crisis exposing the squad building errors that are even worse than typical Spurs squad depth issues.
As important players start getting healthy again, the minimum requirement is that league form goes from wretched to patchy, so things stabilize and the team can focus on trying to win a cup competition.
Much preferred would be an actual consistent run of league results, the whole project could really use another flash like the beginning of Ange's tenure.
As important players start getting healthy again, the minimum requirement is that league form goes from wretched to patchy, so things stabilize and the team can focus on trying to win a cup competition.
Much preferred would be an actual consistent run of league results, the whole project could really use another flash like the beginning of Ange's tenure.
Bournemouth have an injury crisis as bad as us (if not worse) and they haven't lost in 6 Premier League games. They even managed to get a result at Stamford Bridge the other night.
The only reason I would hesitate to sack Ange is that it likely means an extended run of Mason, so if that's the outcome, I would keep Ange until the end of the season. But I don't have much confidence he can turn things around. As of now we are on pace for Tottenham's worst season since we got relegated in 1977.
Spurs have plenty of good players. They just seem to under perform.
I don't understand it. I would put money on Everton but they are pretty unreliable this year too.
I don't understand it. I would put money on Everton but they are pretty unreliable this year too.
We need an update on your bet vel non.
I agree with people in the MW thread that no one out there is going to do better than Ange, but I have to think if he doesn't pick up 4-6 points against Hoffenheim and LCFC at home that he's gone. I'm all for patience, but Spurs can't be in a relegation scrap.
Yeah, the coach has to go, just for a change. But I don't think Ipswich will catch them, not yet anyway...
The following comment could apply to Man Unt/Anorim as well. You have a manager who’s basically saying My Methods are best regardless of the personnel on the field. Which strikes me as bizarre coming from any professional manager let alone a Premier League one.
I get that Spurs have huge injury issues which are a major factor when evaluating current form. I think that has to be kept in mind.
However, you can’t devise a completely inflexible playing strategy that only works if everyone is healthy. That’s a completely unrealistic scenario. I wouldn’t sack Ange right now as there’s no real point. Spurs arn’t making Europe until their health improves - regardless of the manager. If, on the other hand they get sucked into a relegation fight, then he has to go.
If I’m Levy and Ange survives I’d sit him down for a long talk - he has to compromise his principles in the face of unforeseen circumstances.
And I’d be having a long look around at replacements.
I get that Spurs have huge injury issues which are a major factor when evaluating current form. I think that has to be kept in mind.
However, you can’t devise a completely inflexible playing strategy that only works if everyone is healthy. That’s a completely unrealistic scenario. I wouldn’t sack Ange right now as there’s no real point. Spurs arn’t making Europe until their health improves - regardless of the manager. If, on the other hand they get sucked into a relegation fight, then he has to go.
If I’m Levy and Ange survives I’d sit him down for a long talk - he has to compromise his principles in the face of unforeseen circumstances.
And I’d be having a long look around at replacements.
Ange hasn't been completely inflexible tactically. Against Arsenal he played a more defensive lineup with three central midfielders. Against Everton he tried a back three. Neither worked very well.
Tottenham had a pretty thin squad to begin with and they currently have 10 first-team players out injured. Also, because of the injuries he can't rotate, so the players who aren't hurt are all exhausted. That means the pressing which is the foundation of Ange's approach isn't very effective. Sometimes it's just one of those years.
Tottenham had a pretty thin squad to begin with and they currently have 10 first-team players out injured. Also, because of the injuries he can't rotate, so the players who aren't hurt are all exhausted. That means the pressing which is the foundation of Ange's approach isn't very effective. Sometimes it's just one of those years.
This is such a key point with injuries in today's football with insanely packed fixture schedules. Its not just about who you're missing, its about the toll on the "healthy" players and also the tendency of this toll to lead to further injuries.
For teams in Europe, you need a huge squad, a lot of health luck, or both.
The problem for Ange is Djed Spence. What I mean by that is Ange ran Udogie and Porro into the ground, didn't put Djed on the UEL squad, and after Udogie went down injured Spence stepped in and has probably been our best player for 1-2 months. We were all clamoring for him BEFORE the injuries in the hope of establishing a rotation, and Spence's performance are a huge black mark on Ange's player selection bona fides. Bergvall and Gray weren't given tons of minutes before the crisis and they've stepped in admirably. Gray looks cool and confident and Bergvall is promising. Brave to a fault, but with technique surpassing most of the other MFs not named Maddison and Deki.
Ange cites the fact that he only has 10-11 fit players against Everton, but Lankshear and youth players should be given some run during this crisis, and should've been given minutes prior to the crisis. I don't know the academy that well but I think Leo Black and Tyrese Hall are held in high regard. I think Devine and Philips are out on loan, but where is Dorrington?
Against Everton specifically, it certainly feels like Gray should've been tried at DMF with Dragusin and Davies behind. Ange is flailing a bit, and it shows.
I'm still Ange in at least for the next 2, but it's slipping and that's beyond a doubt.
Ange cites the fact that he only has 10-11 fit players against Everton, but Lankshear and youth players should be given some run during this crisis, and should've been given minutes prior to the crisis. I don't know the academy that well but I think Leo Black and Tyrese Hall are held in high regard. I think Devine and Philips are out on loan, but where is Dorrington?
Against Everton specifically, it certainly feels like Gray should've been tried at DMF with Dragusin and Davies behind. Ange is flailing a bit, and it shows.
I'm still Ange in at least for the next 2, but it's slipping and that's beyond a doubt.
Dorrington and Lankshear both have had cameos and not looked super good, so I can understand why those players have not been relied on in a crisis.
Generally also desperately tossing kids in during a crisis seems like not the best way to get them breaking through. The teams that develop these kids properly rotate one or two of them into a more settled team to get them accustomed to playing the right ball the right way.
Really the one academy kid Ange was doing exactly this with, to some success, is Mikey Moore, who then promptly got mono or whatever happened and is only now just coming back.
Generally also desperately tossing kids in during a crisis seems like not the best way to get them breaking through. The teams that develop these kids properly rotate one or two of them into a more settled team to get them accustomed to playing the right ball the right way.
Really the one academy kid Ange was doing exactly this with, to some success, is Mikey Moore, who then promptly got mono or whatever happened and is only now just coming back.