Tottenham Hotspur 2019-20: Jose can you see?
- Thread starter DJnVa
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Tactics aside, which others have opined on - I just don't see how a club struggling with negativity, difficult owner relations, player discontent etc. fixes all that by bringing in Jose. That's like pouring gasoline on those problems.
Sure, in years 2 and 3 of the Mourinho Cycle. But year 1 you get immediate results and energy and enthusiasm, and maybe some meaningful success in year 2, before it all starts simmering that year and then falls apart in year 3.
We've got a Ryan Fitzpatrick Cycle diagram, but really a Mourinho one would be a lot funnier.
After some consideration, I've come around a bit on the thinking behind the hire. Looking at what Poch and Levy have built, it makes some sense to take a manager like Mou who is adept at molding a squad into its final form to chase some hardware before tearing it down for another rebuild. Add to that the fact that this squad is no longer a good fit for Poch's high pressing and intense tactics (Levy's doing in large part), bringing in a manager who has a disciplined defensive system that may help some key squad pieces makes good sense.
There is a lot at stake for a lot of people involved here. Levy has made a big gamble on Mou and this squad. A deep CL campaign and salvaging a Euro spot from the EPL season and the remainder of this season has to be considered a big success. If Spurs miss Europe then a deep UCL campaign (QF+) is important. If not in UEL next year, Mou needs to challenge for the EPL.
Mou's current lasting legacy is his crash out of United. While hindsight has pitched this tenure as worse than it was (EFL and UEL winner in 2017; 2nd place EPL and FA Cup Final in 2018), United then still carried high expectations considering its spending and name recognition. In reality, United's club management is now seen for the significant impediment it is. But nevertheless, I think part of Mourinho's decision to join Spurs is to "not go out like that".
Of course then there are the players. I've read more about Dele in the past 2-3 days than I probably should. I've been reminded about how good he's been at the peak of his game and I think that's why lots of people are focusing on him. Could Mou get the best out of him again? Sure. Once again, I don't think Dele fits into Mou's 442 up top with Kane or at LMF well, but only time will tell. I think Mou is astute enough to come up with other shapes that fit Dele better if he thinks Dele's worth building around. It may only be for certain matches, but my impression of Jose is that he drills a system and may tinker with tactics, but that unless the main plan is to build around Dele that he may not fit neatly into Mou's past systems.
Dier is another one who's been discussed a lot, but I think for him it merely comes down to health. If he's healthy enough to be a DMF/CMF in a low block side, Mou will love him and use him to great effect. If he's not physically able, Dier's time on top sides is over for now.
Jan has some work to do to repair his reputation. I still think he's an absolute beast and will do very well in a low block where he's asked to cover less ground, but it does seem his days as a leader of a high line pressing side are limited.
More than anything else, seeing how Mou deploys Dele, Son, GLC, Ndombele, Sissoko, Lamela, and Lucas will be fascinating. I think he will take a conservative approach on the right flank and while the players who fit that description are up for debate, there is a lot more flexibility and attacking potential and options down the left.
This is a good point.
The devil's advocate argument against this, is that JM failed to live up to expectations at MU. It's not like Chelsea where he's coming off multiple titles. So he's damaged goods, he knows he's damaged goods, everyone knows it, he's more embittered and cynical than usual. I think he short-circuits the process.
ManU hasn't exactly set the world on fire since he left. Perhaps the failure there, in hindsight, is less on him and more on folks a bit higher up the food chain. It's not like they got rid of him and immediately ascended to the top of the table.
They were also bad before he took over. His record at United is significantly better than any other manager since Ferguson.
Watching the PL pregame on NBC. Hosts had a good point: Levy has resisted big paydays for the players. What are they going to think now that he's thrown tons of money at JM - who, by the way, before this, was sitting out on the market with no takers?
I get the pro-JM arguments but my gut tells me that this is not going to end well.
I get the pro-JM arguments but my gut tells me that this is not going to end well.
I don’t know if that’s really true. LVG finished fourth and fifth and won the FA Cup. Mourinho came in, spent a gazillion pounds, and finished 6th, 2nd, and had the team in 6th again when he was fired, winning the league cup and Europa league in the first year. I’d probably take Mourinho’s results but the gap isn’t that big and given the amount he spent, and that he inherited LVG’s team rather than Moyes, I’m not sure he did a better job.
So far they've been playing a pretty conservative 4-2-3-1, but more like a back three with the ball, Davies is not getting forward at all. Lucas and Son have been swapping sides on the wings. And this Winks/Dier midfield is pretty useless
They replaced him with a guy who fell on his face in the Championship, so it could be they both suck.
Some really interesting post-match quotes.
Son said:
Jose is nothing if not pragmatic. My guess is that the long balls up the wings are intended as a temporary measure while the defense and midfield get sorted out. Winks and Dier didn't seem to be tasked with much more than taking up space and not giving away the ball. I've seen Mourinho's preferred coaching method described as placing players in problematic situations on the practice pitch and not letting them move on until they consistently solve the problem to managers liking. It's going to take a while to get everyone to think like Jose on the pitch, so simple is a good place to start.
Mourinho also touted Dele and implicitly challenged him.
He apparently walked up to Dele at practice and said "Are you Dele or his brother?" and when Dele replied that he was Dele, Mourinho said "Then play like him."
Totally agree. Dele was all over the pitch in a good way. He'd help work the ball in the MF then dart up and connect the MF to the forwards. Then he'd be hanging on the backline and drop deep to give options (the first goal). He was clearly engaged and Mou built the attack around him Saturday. I would love to be wrong about Dele not working well with Mou.
I’m also intrigued to see if Jose can find Eric Dier.
it seems like Spurs fan consensus has been that he’s cooked, but particularly with the news recently about him it also seems entirely possible that he’s spent two years mostly not fit and then never match fit when he was in brief healthy interludes.
He fits Jose’s DM style so much more than anyone in the squad that it seems likely he’ll get a long run in the side, so he can probably get match fit enough so we can figure out whether he’s any good anymore.
it seems like Spurs fan consensus has been that he’s cooked, but particularly with the news recently about him it also seems entirely possible that he’s spent two years mostly not fit and then never match fit when he was in brief healthy interludes.
He fits Jose’s DM style so much more than anyone in the squad that it seems likely he’ll get a long run in the side, so he can probably get match fit enough so we can figure out whether he’s any good anymore.
These are paywalled, but here's the interesting parts:
https://theathletic.com/1395237/2019/11/25/joking-about-his-uniform-blocked-from-wearing-an-amazon-mic-and-applauding-overhit-passes-inside-mourinhos-first-week-at-spurs/
https://theathletic.com/1388073/2019/11/20/tottenham-appoint-mourinho-after-pochettino-sulked-his-way-to-the-sack/
https://theathletic.com/1395237/2019/11/25/joking-about-his-uniform-blocked-from-wearing-an-amazon-mic-and-applauding-overhit-passes-inside-mourinhos-first-week-at-spurs/
https://theathletic.com/1388073/2019/11/20/tottenham-appoint-mourinho-after-pochettino-sulked-his-way-to-the-sack/
Guess it's gotten pretty dire when ol' sourpuss is a ray of hope and optimism.
Maybe my generally high opinion of Poch was undeserved and out of date.
Maybe my generally high opinion of Poch was undeserved and out of date.
Dier and Winks in the midfield again. This is going to get old quick. I really hope this is because Ndombele and Lo Celso aren't 100% fit.
View: https://twitter.com/SpursOfficial/status/1199399227631296514
View: https://twitter.com/SpursOfficial/status/1199399227631296514
Do you still feel the same way after the Eriksen substitution at 30'? It seems like Mou quickly realized that his low block may not be viable if opposition don't respect the central MF's ability to hold possession. At least with Dier and Winks yesterday, that was absolutely the case. The surprise for me was that Mou chose to take Dier off rather than Winks. However, Dier's lack of mobility and Winks' decent ball-winning likely figured into that decision. Nevertheless, I don't see Dier and Eriksen as the central MF pair going forward. Sissoko is currently the best defensive CMF in the squad and for that reason alone he should be in the squad. He's also a tidier player and in much better shape than Dier, so I don't see any reason why Dier should start ahead of him. Between Winks and Sissoko, I'd take Sissoko all day for his steadier play, intelligence, and physicality.
As for the other CMF spot, that seems likely to be rotated by Eriksen and Tanguy. We'll see if Tanguy has the defensive ability to be the pivot in the CMF--he likely does against weaker sides, although that may be Winksy's role to lose. This also assumes that Mou only uses one system, which may be likely for most EPL matches but not likely for UCL and high profile EPL matchups.
In other words, early on it's looking like Dele is the first choice AMF and I expect GLC will be the backup for that spot. Ericksen will be in the CMF 2 along with Winks, Dier, and presumably Sissoko and Tanguy. Lamela will be used to spell Son and Lucas at LMF and RMF, with Son and Lucas used to give Kane rest at striker as needed.
Will be interesting to see if Sess gets used at LMF or LB. I know Rose is going thru a rough spell, but Mou has to like Rose's toughness and ability to get forward. I do still hold out hope that KWP gets an opportunity at RB and considering Aurier's affinity for rash challenges and accumulating cards, someone will get opportunities at LB.
Sanchez had an outstanding match and surprisingly seems to have Mou's confidence early on. Toby will likely be a mainstay for his passing ability. What that means for Jan and Foyth remains to be seen.
Well, I don't think Dier was at fault for either of the goals and playing down 2-0 in a game you must have a result from is different from setting a lineup when it's 0-0. The game state changed that and Dier wasn't at fault for that. The entire world knows that a team that is chasing goals will be better served with Eriksen in than with Dier.
It's like if the Pats take Sony Michel off the field because they're down 14-0 and need to throw a lot. It doesn't mean Michel is out of favor, it means the game has changed.
But any way, we'll see. I wasn't saying he's going to ride or die with Dier. I was saying that with minimal time to train with team, he's likely not going to make a lot of changes. I would hope Ndombele and Lo Celso begin to get minutes as he's able to train with them more.
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I think there clearly is a spot for a true CDM. Question is whether Dier can get to the mobility and range needed to be effective. If he can't, they're better off with Sissoko, even though he's not natural there, but he can cover ground and disrupt.
I can also see them going after Zakaria or Soumare or similar in January.
I can also see them going after Zakaria or Soumare or similar in January.
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Son & Dele's speed nets Spurs' first goal. It is so good to see Alli looking like his old self again.
My Spurs fan friend in London (who brought me there to see them kick the shit out of Palace a couple months ago) sent me a picture of Mourinho and his daughter together yesterday. I asked for the story of where and how, and this is what he told me:
Sunshine indeed!
I was so very wrong about Alli. His defense barely matters with how good he is in attack.
Props to Mou for getting the manager bounce so quickly. However, he still needs to figure out how to get this squad disciplined in the back. I'm also very curious to see how he utilizes Lamela, GLC, Lucas, Sissoko, Ndombele, etc. over time. At this time, it appears the regulars are going to be Toby, Sanchez, Aurier (!), Son, Dele, and Kane. That leaves 4 outfield players to figure out--that's still a lot.
Thus far it appears that Lamela is the odd man out. Can't say I have a real problem with that. I'm more concerned about the focus on Aurier. I think he's the best deliverer of crosses from the fullbacks, but I hold my breath every time he defends in the box.
I believe he's out injured still, so not a case of odd man out (not yet anyway). FWIW, he hasn't been on the bench for the last 5 matches or so. Eriksen seems more like the odd man out IMO since he's been healthy but not playing. But really, I think Mou is still getting a handle on what he has with this squad and will be doing so thru the end of the calendar year.
Lamela seems like a perfect rotation guy for Mourinho, reminds me a lot of Jesse Lindgard who really thrived under Jose. I would think a healthy Lamela would be in the mix at backup for Kane/Alli, and/or on the wings.
They've essentially used a back 3 so far, which has been perfect for Aurier, but yeah I agree with you there.
Mourinho took a long question from a Portuguese reporter this morning. Said that it's different from his prior projects in that they will not be the club that spends the most and that he is embracing it. Pointedly asked if there was interest in Bruno Fernandes and he stated that his value and level weren't for Tottenham.
He also gave really good and sensible answers regarding his time at United, OGS, etc. Worth a read on espn.com/soccer.
Per Spurs twitter, Eriksen has rejected a new contract offer from Tottenham. They will apparently try to offload him in January if anyone wants to pay actual money, if not he's gone in June.
One of the stories was that on deadline day ManU made an offer and Eriksen rejected it because he was holding out for Spain and what he thought would be a last minute offer.
One of the stories was that on deadline day ManU made an offer and Eriksen rejected it because he was holding out for Spain and what he thought would be a last minute offer.
Sorry to reply to my own post, but this friend of mine just invited me to the game in Munich on Wednesday. So I guess I’ll be a Spurs fan for the night.
It be like that sometimes. Welcome to the new Spurs, where we have higher expectations before the soul crushing defeats. Is it 3pm yet? COYS
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38RRteA4qY8&feature=youtu.be
You guys know we're going to win right? Or at the very least draw, and outplay Spurs. Same thing with City. and then we'll be subjected to countless articles praising Ole and how he's on the right track. It will prevent us from sacking him. Then we'll lose to Everton, Sheffield, and Norwich.
Although I revel in your Ole glued to the wheel fantasy I wonder where even that pessimistic optimism comes from. Wish I could watch this one today as it’s a fascinating one and probably going to be really cagey
James, Rashford, and Bissaka are the kinda guys that were giving Spurs fits earlier this year, but I think Jose can gameplan them. I don't see any combination of Fred, McTominay, and Pereira that can hang with Spurs' MF. I expect that United will try and attack down the right with Bissaka and one of James/Rashford. I like Danny Rose more than most, but if there was a time for Jan to reprise his role at LB it's this match--perhaps with rose at LMF to help with pace. Whichever of Rashford/James goes to the LW will have chances to get behind Aurier. The DMF to that side (Sissoko?) will be tasked with covering lots of space.
Spurs newfangled attack with Kane-Dele up top and Son down the wing is hard to defend for any squad. Mourinho's real tactical test will be how he chooses the other 1-2 attacking players for specific matchups.
I feel the same way for Spurs. I do the "we need 7 points out of next 3 games" or whatever, get a win versus ManU, feel we're ahead of my Manila Metric, and then lose 1-0 to Burnley.