Tottenham Hotspur 2019-20: Jose can you see?

Zososoxfan

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I'm going to give Mou a pass thru the end of the year as he installs his systems and assesses the players but yesterday was dreadful. Sissoko-Winks is clearly a no go forever. Jan at LB probably is also a solid no go from now on. I'd like to see Kane get some rest as well. He was absolutely invisible yesterday and even though Son was fine at RMF, he's wasted there (at least he was yesterday). Not sure if Son-Dele up top will work but it has to be tried. I guess Lucas can be tried up top as well and that allows Son to move to RMF/RW. Eriksen, GLC, and Ndombele need to be given more PT, especially the first two since their fitness isn't in question. Thought yesterday would've been a Rose game but since he sat I expect him to go 90 this weekend. Would like to see Foyth get some time as well.
 

Kliq

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Yeah this is basically going to be a training exercise for both teams. Troy Parrott will be with the team and might start for all we know.
 

veritas

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Kyle Walker Peters looks completely overmatched athletically at fullback today. He has some technical ability but I've never seen enough to make me think there's a Premier League quality fullback there. Just too slow and small.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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How does that make any sense? Wouldn't the probabilities be even across any potential opponent? IOW, each group winner has either 5 or 6 possible opponents:

PSG, Bayern, Leipzig - 16.67% change to get any of 6 possible opponents

MANC, Juve, Liverpool, Barca, Valencia - 20% chance to get any of 5 possible opponents
No because you can't play the person from your group or another team from your country. So then based on the two pots, you've got the impact of teams you can face and then the teams that they're allowed to face to further skew the odds.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah...it's math so I won't get it exactly correct but since some teams have different number of possibilities as teams get "picked" it changes the odds of who is left. So teams that Spurs can face that have more potential openings available will have slightly different percentages than teams that have fewer.

We have 1 in 5 chance of playing Team X. But Team X doesn't necessarily have a 1 in 5 chance of playing us--if that makes sense.
 

Zososoxfan

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Yeah...it's math so I won't get it exactly correct but since some teams have different number of possibilities as teams get "picked" it changes the odds of who is left. So teams that Spurs can face that have more potential openings available will have slightly different percentages than teams that have fewer.

We have 1 in 5 chance of playing Team X. But Team X doesn't necessarily have a 1 in 5 chance of playing us--if that makes sense.
It totally does--that concept was rolling around in my head but I wasn't even going to try to explain it in words. Gracias.
 

Zososoxfan

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Can we talk about what a fucking ending that was? Kudos for Wolves supporters for making that a frenzied atmosphere for 90 minutes--the players obliged as well and were running ragged throughout. The broadcasters did a good job of drawing appropriate attention to the Adama-Jan battle on the flank (perhaps harping on it a bit too much, but getting credit for pointing out Adama's ineffectiveness when shown to the middle rather than down the line) and it was looking somewhat bleak when Adama netted the equalizer, but Jan got the last laugh--what a beast. Easily one of my favorite Spurs players.

Despite the result, Wolves showed their quality and I thought they crushed Spurs throughout the match. Wolves left themselves vulnerable at the back, but Spurs aren't currently able to take advantage. Nevertheless, this was the first game where it felt like a Mou side that expected to win by relying on its defense. I was surprised that Mou waited as long as he did to make his substitutions, but what do I know.

Lucas demonstrated why he is such a trick or treat player--he's electric with the ball and his finishing is very good, but he struggles to find his way into team structure.

Aurier had his first legitimate bad match in awhile--he wasn't able to get forward and provide good crosses into the area. He was forced to defend a lot and that's not what Serge does best. Dier had his best match of the season IMO, but I admit I didn't watch him that closely.

Arry didn't get much service and had a quiet match, and the same could be mostly said for Dele.

For now, let's bask in a relatively favorable draw in the UCL against Leipzig as we gear up for Sunday's immense match against the fookin' Blues.
 

coremiller

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Amazingly, a win against Chelsea on Sunday would put Spurs back in the Top 4. They were in 14th, 12 points behind Chelsea, when Mourinho was appointed less than a month ago.
 

veritas

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The consensus, including oddsmakers is that RBL was a good draw for Spurs. I just don't see it. RBL have been dominating the Bundesliga this season, legitimately, not riding luck like Gladbach. Sure they could have had a worse draw, but RBL is in the top 8 of the 16 teams left, and much closer to the top teams than the Valencias and Lyons of the world.

edit: oops, this was discussed in another thread already
 
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PedroSpecialK

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Alderweireld signed through 2023 - needless to say, that's enormous for Spurs. Wage apparently triples to £150k/week but that's not that wild in today's game
 

Zososoxfan

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I can appreciate what Mou is trying to do, but Dier-Sissoko is a dreadful MF 2, Aurier is limited (TBF Mou may not have any better options at this point), and Spurs looked horrid against Chelsea yesterday. It's fairly clear though, that either Eriksen, Tanguy, or GLC needs to be in the MF to help when Spurs get pressed. Either that or Mou needs to setup Son up high and play direct football. I also thought that Lucas had a similarly anonymous match, but didn't have the masterclass goal to balance it out. Yesterday set my expectations for the remainder of the EPL season as a top 6 finish. I had thought they may be able to get top 4, but that is apparently asking a lot of this squad.
 

Kliq

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I can appreciate what Mou is trying to do, but Dier-Sissoko is a dreadful MF 2, Aurier is limited (TBF Mou may not have any better options at this point), and Spurs looked horrid against Chelsea yesterday. It's fairly clear though, that either Eriksen, Tanguy, or GLC needs to be in the MF to help when Spurs get pressed. Either that or Mou needs to setup Son up high and play direct football. I also thought that Lucas had a similarly anonymous match, but didn't have the masterclass goal to balance it out. Yesterday set my expectations for the remainder of the EPL season as a top 6 finish. I had thought they may be able to get top 4, but that is apparently asking a lot of this squad.
Yep, it was a reality check. There is still a lot of soccer left to be played and that fourth CL spot might still become available, but this team is really below that level at this point.

Aurier was really bad yesterday, the first goal was almost entirely his fault, first conceding the corner for no reason other than poor judgement, and then being super-slow closing down Willian. At the same time, they don't have any better options and they obviously miss Trippier a lot more than people thought they were going to. I thought Sissoko was maybe their best player yesterday but they really need another holding midfielder that can distribute the ball, which is going to be Ndombele. Danny Rose disappearing from the rotation is a big issue since he might have been their best player for a stretch earlier this season.
 

Zososoxfan

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Yep, it was a reality check. There is still a lot of soccer left to be played and that fourth CL spot might still become available, but this team is really below that level at this point.

Aurier was really bad yesterday, the first goal was almost entirely his fault, first conceding the corner for no reason other than poor judgement, and then being super-slow closing down Willian. At the same time, they don't have any better options and they obviously miss Trippier a lot more than people thought they were going to. I thought Sissoko was maybe their best player yesterday but they really need another holding midfielder that can distribute the ball, which is going to be Ndombele. Danny Rose disappearing from the rotation is a big issue since he might have been their best player for a stretch earlier this season.
Agree on all accounts. However, Chelsea is direct competition for one of those CL spots and they looked far ahead yesterday.

I freely admit that I thought Aurier was about as good as Trippier. And while it's easy to pine for Trippier now, his lack of pace was a real problem that Aurier doesn't share. So while Aurier has lapses in judgment, I think we would see Trippier's lack of speed get exploited as well.

I also love Sissoko and I don't see why people don't think he can be the holding mid for Spurs. It seems obvious to me that you could pair him with Eriksen, GLC, or Tanguy in a MF 2 (4-2-3-1) and be fine.

Just based on the personnel, it would seem that a 3-4-2-1/3-4-1-2 setup might be worth a shot. Not terribly different from what we're doing now, but would be sacrificing someone in the front 4 for the LWB (most likely Rose). It does get Jan, Rose, and Aurier into positions where they are best suited though. Would be a problem for front 3 playing time.
 

Kliq

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Things are going poorly.

The game at Southampton exhibited a lot of the weaknesses of what this club is currently like playing under Jose. Southampton hadn't had a clean sheet in a year, but they had no problem keeping Tottenham off the board. I don't know how much Mourinho has learned in his time away from the game, but I don't see his strategy leading to winning football with this club, for a number of reasons.

* The defense is still bad, even with Jose coming in and slowing things down with two-holding midfielders. The backline has a lot of issues, Jan Vertonghen is playing LB as a way to get Sanchez and Toby both into the starting eleven. It does create a scenario where their three best defenders are on the field at the same time, but now Vertonghen is playing out of position. I love SuperJan, but they are asking a lot out of him. The sudden disappearance of Danny Rose hasn't helped.

* I don't know if he is truly as bad as he seems, but Aurier just is a complete disaster to me. He doesn't defend particularly well and he just so wasteful with the ball. Occasionally he can deliver a good ball into the box and he can run, but other than that I don't see much of a player and he feels like a big negative when he is out there.

* Gazzaniga has been pretty bad. Haven't heard much on Hugo's return, but the last bit of info seemed like he was targeting a January return so hopefully soon? They need him badly.

* Hopefully, one day, the two holding midfielder strategy will work when Sissoko and Ndombele are healthy. Ndombele has been great when he has been healthy, but has been constantly injured since arriving. He was bossing around the midfield during the first 30 minutes against Southampton, but then he had to come off. Sissoko has been the most consistent player all year, which is crazy when you think about where he was when he first arrived. Dier isn't starting player anymore and Jose clearly doesn't rate Winks too highly.

* Eriksen has undoubtedly been better since Jose took over, but still looks like a guy ready to exit the club and not a world class playmaker. Dele has played better as well but still looks extremely frustrated with the entire situation and also looks like someone who may need a change of scenery.

* Without Son, Lucas was being asked to play out of position and his impact was limited. When Kane went down, he slid into a more natural position and suddenly had a much bigger impact on the game.

* Haven't heard about how badly Kane is injured, but it looked like it could have been a torn hamstring. Needless to say the team will need to find another way to score goals without him, at least Son is back and Lamela looks fit.

* The new signings have been disappointing. Ndombele has been good but hurt, Lo Celso has been hurt and unimpressive when fit, Sessegnon didn't play, but looked lost when he was out there yesterday.
 

Zososoxfan

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Things are going poorly.

The game at Southampton exhibited a lot of the weaknesses of what this club is currently like playing under Jose. Southampton hadn't had a clean sheet in a year, but they had no problem keeping Tottenham off the board. I don't know how much Mourinho has learned in his time away from the game, but I don't see his strategy leading to winning football with this club, for a number of reasons.

* The defense is still bad, even with Jose coming in and slowing things down with two-holding midfielders. The backline has a lot of issues, Jan Vertonghen is playing LB as a way to get Sanchez and Toby both into the starting eleven. It does create a scenario where their three best defenders are on the field at the same time, but now Vertonghen is playing out of position. I love SuperJan, but they are asking a lot out of him. The sudden disappearance of Danny Rose hasn't helped.

* I don't know if he is truly as bad as he seems, but Aurier just is a complete disaster to me. He doesn't defend particularly well and he just so wasteful with the ball. Occasionally he can deliver a good ball into the box and he can run, but other than that I don't see much of a player and he feels like a big negative when he is out there.

* Gazzaniga has been pretty bad. Haven't heard much on Hugo's return, but the last bit of info seemed like he was targeting a January return so hopefully soon? They need him badly.

* Hopefully, one day, the two holding midfielder strategy will work when Sissoko and Ndombele are healthy. Ndombele has been great when he has been healthy, but has been constantly injured since arriving. He was bossing around the midfield during the first 30 minutes against Southampton, but then he had to come off. Sissoko has been the most consistent player all year, which is crazy when you think about where he was when he first arrived. Dier isn't starting player anymore and Jose clearly doesn't rate Winks too highly.

* Eriksen has undoubtedly been better since Jose took over, but still looks like a guy ready to exit the club and not a world class playmaker. Dele has played better as well but still looks extremely frustrated with the entire situation and also looks like someone who may need a change of scenery.

* Without Son, Lucas was being asked to play out of position and his impact was limited. When Kane went down, he slid into a more natural position and suddenly had a much bigger impact on the game.

* Haven't heard about how badly Kane is injured, but it looked like it could have been a torn hamstring. Needless to say the team will need to find another way to score goals without him, at least Son is back and Lamela looks fit.

* The new signings have been disappointing. Ndombele has been good but hurt, Lo Celso has been hurt and unimpressive when fit, Sessegnon didn't play, but looked lost when he was out there yesterday.
I agree with your overall assessment that things are going poorly, but I disagree about a couple of things.

The backline is bad, but I think it's looked that way in large part because the MF is such a mess. The club really needs a cleanup side-to-side DMF to cover the gaps behind the FBs and protect the CBs (a/k/a a destroyer). The silver lining here is that Spurs have a plethora of guys who could all serve as reasonable partners for such a player, thus the DMF doesn't need to have lots of skill or technical ability. Young Mascherano, De Jong (minus the reckless stupidity), Luis Gustavo, Gattuso, Medel, etc. are all good comps. Obviously I don't think Spurs is about to pip an all-timer like some of those guys, but since so many megaclubs want technicians at that spot (Rodri, Busi, Casemiro, Fabinho, etc.) it's a role that Spurs should be able to get a player for <20M. The real value is that it allows all the other mids to slide into their best spots (more on this below).

I really want Aurier to succeed, but he objectively hasn't. He's so inconsistent and he drifts often. It's sad because he has a nice skillset and I like his style, but the next few months are hopefully his last with the club.

I can't say enough good things about Sissoko. He's been consistent at several different roles and he's probably my player of the season so far (Dele's start was bad and Son's cards are becoming a concern). In one of the recent matches he was bombing forward from a deep position and I sometimes forget how good he is at creating numerical advantages. Getting a true DMF next to him would let him create havoc.

Ndombele has had flashes and he is clearly technically solid, but I was expecting more from him. Same goes for GLC, but I think the injury and lack of PT are reasonable explanations there.

Jose tried Sess at LB and I think most agree that is his best position for the future. I hope he sticks there, because the Jan experiment is not going as well as last year.

Kane is the man, but the system is so discombobulated right now that some of his best moments are when he drops between the lines and serves as the creator. Part of me thinks this squad will improve with a speedy Son and/or Lucas ahead of Dele. To your point about Lucas, what is his natural position? I see him first and foremost as a winger or withdrawn striker, but as I've said before I think he is amazingly skilled but struggles to fit into any system tidily.

Lastly, I think Gaz has been very good for Spurs. He's certainly had a couple of howlers and the last man tackles were not good, but he's far from the culprit IMO. One of the biggest questions that remains for me (both short and long term) is whether the CBs and the defense generally have looked so bad because of the MF, because the FBs, or because their own general drop in quality. Likely a combo of the 3, but then why are we signing Toby to an extension?
 
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Kliq

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Probably because he played approximately 5,000 games in 10 days. It has become expected that Kane is going to miss some time during the season each year; that is just a reality of the situation and the team has never invested in a suitable backup that can realistically start for Spurs to give Kane some rest.
 

SocrManiac

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I’m wondering how it’s “good for the league” to lose superstars every winter. I wish a major name leaving (like Hazard last window) would cite the holiday period as a reason for moving out of England.
 

Kliq

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I’m wondering how it’s “good for the league” to lose superstars every winter. I wish a major name leaving (like Hazard last window) would cite the holiday period as a reason for moving out of England.
Not to mention the general poor quality of play by the end of the festivities on Wednesday/Thursday. A team like City can get by and still look good in the process, and Liverpool this year as well, but everyone else just kind of runs around on fumes.
 

Zososoxfan

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Not to mention the general poor quality of play by the end of the festivities on Wednesday/Thursday. A team like City can get by and still look good in the process, and Liverpool this year as well, but everyone else just kind of runs around on fumes.
Hard to tell what's fuel and fumes with Spurs these days...HIYO!!!
 

Kliq

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Hard to tell what's fuel and fumes with Spurs these days...HIYO!!!
Yeah, this was not meant to excuse Tottentham's performance on Wednesday, Southampton had the same schedule as they did, but just across the league players looked exhausted.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Getting a true DMF next to him would let him create havoc.

Ndombele has had flashes and he is clearly technically solid, but I was expecting more from him. Same goes for GLC, but I think the injury and lack of PT are reasonable explanations there.
Ndombele is who this team needs to be built around. When (if?) healthy, he's a perfect CM for the prem. Can tackle, win balls and push forward on both the dribble and the pass. He has vision, he has wiggle. He can finish.
He needs a dedicated CDM next to him to afford him the freedom to excel. (as you state for Sissoko)
This is our biggest weakness right now.
 

Kliq

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Ndombele is who this team needs to be built around. When (if?) healthy, he's a perfect CM for the prem. Can tackle, win balls and push forward on both the dribble and the pass. He has vision, he has wiggle. He can finish.
He needs a dedicated CDM next to him to afford him the freedom to excel. (as you state for Sissoko)
This is our biggest weakness right now.
So you are telling me that isn't Eric Dier????

Ndomeble also plays the game with a tremendous amount of flair; he has been a joy to watch so far when he has been healthy.
 

Zososoxfan

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Ndombele is who this team needs to be built around. When (if?) healthy, he's a perfect CM for the prem. Can tackle, win balls and push forward on both the dribble and the pass. He has vision, he has wiggle. He can finish.
He needs a dedicated CDM next to him to afford him the freedom to excel. (as you state for Sissoko)
This is our biggest weakness right now.
We agree (I think). Ndombele and Sissoko are the 2 MF in the best form ATM (any word on Tanguy's injury?) and they both need a DMF to utilize them in their best roles. Likely applies to Winsky too.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Danish paper reporting Eriksen to Inter Milan for £20m.

Edit: report is real, but transation not separately verified.
 
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Mugsy's Jock

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Danish paper reporting Eriksen to Inter Milan for £20m.
Disappointing return given where he was six months ago, but at this point good riddance. Can’t remember the last time a player went from being one of my favorites to an object of disappointment so quickly.

Though I guess if he’s gone on a free this summer anyway, can’t complain about 20M as the seasons lost anyway.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I would be quite surprised if Eriksen is sold to Inter for a fee like 20m.

He can sign a pre-contract with any club at this point. The only reason to accept a transfer instead is if that was the club you wanted to go to and if that club was basically offering the same wages it would give you in the pre-contract, despite having to shell out 20m to Spurs in this scenario. Both thing seem kind of unlikely, in that Eriksen has long been rumored to want to play for one of the Spanish clubs (whether they want him is another matter) and Inter doesn't have the financial muscle to not only offer him outlandish wages that outplace clubs like PSG that are probably also sniffing around but also to pay a transfer fee on top of that.

United effectively did this with Alexis Sanchez, giving him like 500-600k per week in the January before his contract expired and paying a transfer "fee" to Arsenal (in the form of Henrik Mkhitaryan). But Inter isn't United. Most of the time when a player reaches this point they just run the contract down.
 

Zososoxfan

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I would be quite surprised if Eriksen is sold to Inter for a fee like 20m.

He can sign a pre-contract with any club at this point. The only reason to accept a transfer instead is if that was the club you wanted to go to and if that club was basically offering the same wages it would give you in the pre-contract, despite having to shell out 20m to Spurs in this scenario. Both thing seem kind of unlikely, in that Eriksen has long been rumored to want to play for one of the Spanish clubs (whether they want him is another matter) and Inter doesn't have the financial muscle to not only offer him outlandish wages that outplace clubs like PSG that are probably also sniffing around but also to pay a transfer fee on top of that.

United effectively did this with Alexis Sanchez, giving him like 500-600k per week in the January before his contract expired and paying a transfer "fee" to Arsenal (in the form of Henrik Mkhitaryan). But Inter isn't United. Most of the time when a player reaches this point they just run the contract down.
One thing that may affect this calculus is if Inter thinks Eriksen (or any club w/r/t any player really) can materially increase their chances at success leading to increases in prize money. I think January transfers are eligible for UEL (as opposed to not being eligible for UCL IIRC), are obviously eligible for domestic comps like Serie A, and I'm not going to address the Italian Cup because I don't even know who's still in and I doubt it's lucrative. But for example, winning UEL this year is probably worth $15M. Based on scant research, Juve earned an extra $20M for winning the Scudetto in '16. We may be down on the Not So Great Dane, but he's obviously still talented and lots of EPL players look better once they leave the frenetic pace that is the EPL. It's not out of the question that a club would see him in this light and consider it a calculated risk.
 

pedro1918

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Pretty sure January transfers are now eligible for UCL. I have read that Minamino can play for Liverpool even though he played for Salzburg against Liverpool earlier this UCL season.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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One thing that may affect this calculus is if Inter thinks Eriksen (or any club w/r/t any player really) can materially increase their chances at success leading to increases in prize money. I think January transfers are eligible for UEL (as opposed to not being eligible for UCL IIRC), are obviously eligible for domestic comps like Serie A, and I'm not going to address the Italian Cup because I don't even know who's still in and I doubt it's lucrative. But for example, winning UEL this year is probably worth $15M. Based on scant research, Juve earned an extra $20M for winning the Scudetto in '16. We may be down on the Not So Great Dane, but he's obviously still talented and lots of EPL players look better once they leave the frenetic pace that is the EPL. It's not out of the question that a club would see him in this light and consider it a calculated risk.
That’s true and this is clearly inter’s best chance to win the league in ages.
 

veritas

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Kane hasn't been good since 2018. If the rest of the team is healthy, it's a blessing in disguise that he's hurt. He's not even the best striker on his team, that would be Dele. And even though I think Son is better on the wings, he's also a better striker than Kane. An ideal Kane-less lineup, IMO:

-----------Dele----Son------------
GLC/Eriksen-----------Lucas
------Ndombele--Moose-----
(Back 4 is a different discussion)
 

Zososoxfan

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Kane hasn't been good since 2018. If the rest of the team is healthy, it's a blessing in disguise that he's hurt. He's not even the best striker on his team, that would be Dele. And even though I think Son is better on the wings, he's also a better striker than Kane. An ideal Kane-less lineup, IMO:

-----------Dele----Son------------
GLC/Eriksen-----------Lucas
------Ndombele--Moose-----
(Back 4 is a different discussion)
It's easy to fall into this line of thinking, I certainly have at times. And while Kane hasn't been as consistent the past year (likely due to injuries in part), I do think the lack of service and the lack of squad turnover the past 2 seasons has played a big part. He's still a world class finisher and still has better touch than 95% of all players. When he drops even a little deeper than normal, he plays outstanding passes.

All that being said, i do agree that this team can play a very different look with Son and/or Lucas ahead of Dele. I disagree that Dele is a better striker than Kane--they have different roles.
 

SocrManiac

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Whatever Kane has lost, players of his caliber do far more than goal and assist statistics convey.

His ability to create space for his teammates is unmatched in the league. He instinctively does what Pep and Klopp do with their systems. That only works because opposing teams have no choice but to respect his ability to control and strike from anywhere. If Kane can’t score from the wide edges of the box, central defenders don’t need to stray to cover him. He can, they do, and it creates space for Dele and Moura. Why can Son make his aggressive, penetrating runs? Because Kane is drawing attention and bodies away by wandering further away.

I’d be concerned that this might be particularly troublesome in with Mourinho’s more defensive systems. In matches where Spurs are relying on a counter, Kane’s ability to create additional space is a significant loss.

I think this is why he was picked to start in the CL Final, even if he was an unknown. Strikers that score every other match are incredibly valuable. Kane can still change a game from nowhere in a single second. He hasn’t yet shown that ability has evaporated, and his effect on his teammates hasn’t diminished at all.
 

veritas

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Starting the game today in a 3-5-2. Lucas and Son up front, Eriksen and Alli in front of Winks in midfield. Back line of Dier-Toby-Jan. Sess and Aurier wingbacks
 

Jimy Hendrix

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The lack of midfield creativity until Lo Celso came in was the real alarming thing. Winks keeps things moving, but never in a threatening way, Alli is creative around the box, but is not going to open a defense up from deeper. Eriksen has one foot out the door and/or is on one of those months long cold streaks he gets into which are why he didn't get a huge move a year or two ago.

They desperately need Ndombele to find health or Lo Celso to find starting form.