Tompa Bay: Tom Tom Club

sezwho

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depends, he might have a case for the incentives as well

Edit- I bet TB quietly pays him part of the incentive to go away and not drag Arians through the mud all playoffs
I got a kick out of how I think this conversation would go…
Tom: Hey AB, here’s a couple brief cases of cash….now we can count on you not to say or do anything crazy right?
AB: No problem Tom, you can count on me!
Tom: Wait a minute…
 

BroodsSexton

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Dude has made $80 million+ during his NFL career. I still find it hard to believe anything depends or depended on the last million in incentives. Maybe, I guess. Everyone needs more money.
 

BigSoxFan

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Dude has made $80 million+ during his NFL career. I still find it hard to believe anything depends or depended on the last million in incentives. Maybe, I guess. Everyone needs more money.
How much of that $80M do you think someone as troubled as AB still has?
 

Preacher

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Dude has made $80 million+ during his NFL career. I still find it hard to believe anything depends or depended on the last million in incentives. Maybe, I guess. Everyone needs more money.
How much has he spent, though? He’s been in the league since 2010. If I made $800k from my job since 2010 until present day, I’m sure I’d hang around for a couple more weeks if it meant I was getting a $10k bonus.
 

DJnVa

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Can the AB stuff (at least the posts not tying him to Brady) be broken out. It's polluting a thread about the GOAT.
 

BroodsSexton

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How much has he spent, though? He’s been in the league since 2010. If I made $800k from my job since 2010 until present day, I’m sure I’d hang around for a couple more weeks if it meant I was getting a $10k bonus.
If you made $800,000 since 2010, you’d be earning a little more than $72,000 per year. The marginal value to you of an additional $10,000 would be a quite a bit more significant. The sales tax is regressive, right?

I take the point that he’s spent a lot of money, too. But I just find it very hard to believe that anyone is sitting on that sideline (before or after the game) thinking about a million here or there in potential incentive pay. This seems much more likely motivated by AB’s health, generally (mental, physical, or both) than by incentive pay calculations. But I suppose I could be wrong. Maybe Arians really was calculating the value of a million bucks in incentive pay vs getting embarrassed in a loss to the Jets. And maybe AB really is thinking — what exactly?
 

Preacher

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If you made $800,000 since 2010, you’d be earning a little more than $72,000 per year. The marginal value to you of an additional $10,000 would be a quite a bit more significant. The sales tax is regressive, right?

I take the point that he’s spent a lot of money, too. But I just find it very hard to believe that anyone is sitting on that sideline (before or after the game) thinking about a million here or there in potential incentive pay. This seems much more likely motivated by AB’s health, generally (mental, physical, or both) than by incentive pay calculations. But I suppose I could be wrong. Maybe Arians really was calculating the value of a million bucks in incentive pay vs getting embarrassed in a loss to the Jets. And maybe AB really is thinking — what exactly?
Ok, but now you’re talking sales tax implications. AB also does a majority of his work in Florida which doesn’t have an income tax so maybe the $1mil would have a greater value than say our hypothetical person earning $72k a year who lives in say California? I have no idea and it doesn’t really matter. At what point, financially, would you have to be at to walk way from two weeks of work for $1mil (understanding he may not reach those incentives but they were close)? AB’s net worth, per many websites, is about $20mil.
 

BroodsSexton

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Ok, but now you’re talking sales tax implications. AB also does a majority of his work in Florida which doesn’t have an income tax so maybe the $1mil would have a greater value than say our hypothetical person earning $72k a year who lives in say California? I have no idea and it doesn’t really matter. At what point, financially, would you have to be at to walk way from two weeks of work for $1mil (understanding he may not reach those incentives but they were close)? AB’s net worth, per many websites, is about $20mil.
You’re still not answering my question. You think it’s plausible that Arians is holding him out of the game over the possibility that he might hit his incentives in helping them come back from an embarrassing loss to the Jets? That makes no sense. Or AB walks off—assuring he won’t hit his incentives—because he wants to hit his incentives?

And my point about the sales tax was in response to you saying you’d hang on for $10K if you made $800K over ten years. I’m saying that the marginal ten percent is far less valuable to someone who has made $80mm. I used the sales tax as an commonly used illustration of that point. 10% sales tax means a lot more to someone at the poverty line than in the top 1%. Anyways enough digression. I just don’t think the incentives have any reasonable relation to this dispute.
 

slamminsammya

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On top of all this……if there was an injury it is protocol for Brown to alert the medical staff who would then make the determination on his status and alert Arians of Brown’s availability.
He missed practice the entire week due to his ankle. Maybe things have changed the past few years but there are heaps and heaps of stories from former players that paint a picture that the medical staffs tend to put the interests of the team sometimes above the interests of the player, OR alternatively that the coaching staffs don't always accept what the medical team has to say.
 

BroodsSexton

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He missed practice the entire week due to his ankle. Maybe things have changed the past few years but there are heaps and heaps of stories from former players that paint a picture that the medical staffs tend to put the interests of the team sometimes above the interests of the player, OR alternatively that the coaching staffs don't always accept what the medical team has to say.
Right—this narrative makes a lot more sense. He feels he can’t go. The coaching/med staff says he better get back out there to help them come back. He says that’s b.s. Arians makes a snide comment like “Get out there or you’re done as a Buc.” A.B. flips his lid.
 
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Preacher

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You’re still not answering my question. You think it’s plausible that Arians is holding him out of the game over the possibility that he might hit his incentives in helping them come back from an embarrassing loss to the Jets? That makes no sense. Or AB walks off—assuring he won’t hit his incentives—because he wants to hit his incentives?

And my point about the sales tax was in response to you saying you’d hang on for $10K if you made $800K over ten years. I’m saying that the marginal ten percent is far less valuable to someone who has made $80mm. I used the sales tax as an commonly used illustration of that point. 10% sales tax means a lot more to someone at the poverty line than in the top 1%. Anyways enough digression. I just don’t think the incentives have any reasonable relation to this dispute.
Ok, maybe I misunderstood the story. I thought Arians asked him to go, he said he didn’t feel he could go because of his ankle. Arians basically responded with, if you won’t go in when we tell you to, you’re off the team. And then he walked. Breaking it down simplistically. You asked two questions in your previous post, one about the regressive nature of sales tax (I agree), and one about what AB was thinking (I have no idea).

But sure, I can find it reasonable that Brown had no idea how close he was to those incentives in the moment or the value of each of those incentives (and the likelihood of meeting them over the course of the next 1.5 games) or, if he did, he didn’t give a shit in the moment. I totally can believe either scenario.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He missed practice the entire week due to his ankle. Maybe things have changed the past few years but there are heaps and heaps of stories from former players that paint a picture that the medical staffs tend to put the interests of the team sometimes above the interests of the player, OR alternatively that the coaching staffs don't always accept what the medical team has to say.
True. The fact that he is still employed by the Bucs indicates that there may be more to the story here. How incredible would it be if TB12 went above Arians and threatened to leave this spring if they released his friend/receiver and more importantly why does a part of me want to see this play out?
 

joe dokes

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He missed practice the entire week due to his ankle. Maybe things have changed the past few years but there are heaps and heaps of stories from former players that paint a picture that the medical staffs tend to put the interests of the team sometimes above the interests of the player, OR alternatively that the coaching staffs don't always accept what the medical team has to say.
While this is true, I don't think I've ever heard such a conflict boil down to the head coach telling a player *mid game* to go in, and it ending up like this. (As opposed to the usual "can't make the club from the tub" drivel.)
 

Mystic Merlin

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True. The fact that he is still employed by the Bucs indicates that there may be more to the story here. How incredible would it be if TB12 went above Arians and threatened to leave this spring if they released his friend/receiver and more importantly why does a part of me want to see this play out?
I think it’s a formality, they’re probably trying to figure out how to get money back from him and/or keep him from going anywhere else.
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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Arians just said that there was no discussion between him and AB about AB being injured (he sure didn't look injured as he was dancing and running off the field)

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/01/03/bruce-arians-denies-that-antonio-brown-said-he-was-too-injured-to-keep-playing/

Even if the conversation went down exactly as above, are we really going to believe that there weren't other issues that led to this (not even getting into the fake vaccine card and shit)?

If there is one player left in the NFL that has lost the ability to receive the benefit of the doubt, it's Antonio Brown.
There is no way that Arians would ever admit that he tried to force a player to play hurt.
 
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When watching yesterday it seemed like AB just flipped his lid, but my guess now is that something weird did go down on the sideline with Arians. His non-answers to questions today was also strange. Have to wonder if this drama, combined, perhaps, with an early round loss in the playoffs, could hasten Brady’s retirement to some extent; or, on the flip side, whether it means Leftwich takes over next year.
 

Cellar-Door

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Can’t they just say ‘conduct detrimental’ ?
dubious, it's on-field not off, and nothing he did is particularly bad. The league isn't suspending him for throwing stuff in the crowd (guys do it at end of game all the time) or for gesturing to the crowd.

He did nothing even remotely close to suspension worthy, and trying to finesse one through makes no sense, the league shouldn't care at all, and it would just piss off the union.
I think it’s a formality, they’re probably trying to figure out how to get money back from him and/or keep him from going anywhere else.
I think it's about avoiding a grievance, preferably without paying him anything more, perhaps a small side of "we don't want a playoff opponent to sign him"
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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True. The fact that he is still employed by the Bucs indicates that there may be more to the story here. How incredible would it be if TB12 went above Arians and threatened to leave this spring if they released his friend/receiver and more importantly why does a part of me want to see this play out?
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s still on the Bucs because the team wants the league to discipline/suspend him and the league is telling them it’s purely a team issue.
 

axx

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I think it’s a formality, they’re probably trying to figure out how to get money back from him and/or keep him from going anywhere else.
Saw somebody suggest they should put him on IR. Surely they need the roster spot so leaving him on the roster and not play isn't going to happen.
 

axx

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Also AB was spotted at last night's Nets game so he might still be in NY right now.
 

Al Zarilla

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By the way, I just watched Brady's game-winning drive from yesterday. Unreal. 2 minutes left, no timeouts, down 4, ball at his own 7.

Battaboombattabing. Touchdown Tampa. Unbelievable (yet...so believable).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWYrxyjCT4c
That's called Sunday for Tom. Just watched my DVR copy of that game. Amazing. Good to see Gronk contributing in a major way too. Camera showed some Jets fans of course and you can just about read their mind, like why can't this guy ride off into the sunset and stop torturing us.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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When watching yesterday it seemed like AB just flipped his lid, but my guess now is that something weird did go down on the sideline with Arians. His non-answers to questions today was also strange. Have to wonder if this drama, combined, perhaps, with an early round loss in the playoffs, could hasten Brady’s retirement to some extent; or, on the flip side, whether it means Leftwich takes over next year.
What makes you think Brady would retire coming off a pro bowl and potential MVP season? He's always given every indication that he is going to continue to play as long as he can at a high level.
 
Aug 9, 2015
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What makes you think Brady would retire coming off a pro bowl and potential MVP season? He's always given every indication that he is going to continue to play as long as he can at a high level.
I don’t think it’s likely but I can imagine him getting sick of the drama and not wanting to go through any kind of “rebuilding” or toxicity in Tampa, or for that matter go somewhere else. Last year was story book for him, this year could end that way too, but it’s more likely to fall apart given their injuries. Gronk can’t play forever. It has to end sometime, and I think more than anything TB wants it to be on his terms.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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What makes you think Brady would retire coming off a pro bowl and potential MVP season? He's always given every indication that he is going to continue to play as long as he can at a high level.
The more I think about Brady, the more I think he's in a self-inflected dilemma.

He's an uber-competitive maniac who hates losing at anything. He's also essentially "solved" football because in his words "they can't show me anything I haven't already seen." He's also heavily invested in the TB12 company for his post-football future and his entire shtick with that is healthy living and workouts lead to longevity, ergo I'm still putting up MVP seasons at 44. He's also said he's going to play until he sucks.

BUT. If he plays well and has a great year again like he did this year, that's going to fuel him to say "I don't suck, I can still play at this level," and he'll keep going. If he wins the SB again, he'll want to do it again because he can still play. If he doesn't win the SB, he hates losing so he's going to want to try again. If he starts sucking, he's exactly the kind of maniac to not want to walk away on a low note.

I go over it again and again in my mind and have a hard time coming up with ANY scenario in which Brady steps away from the game happy and satisfied. He could have done that after SB 53. He could have done it after SB 55. In both cases he came back for yet another challenge. The challenge of taking a new team to the SB? Complete. Now what? The challenge of taking a badly injured team that just dumped a good yet insane WR to the SB? Sure, that's this year. When will he say "There are no more football worlds to conquer"?
 

BroodsSexton

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The more I think about Brady, the more I think he's in a self-inflected dilemma.

He's an uber-competitive maniac who hates losing at anything. He's also essentially "solved" football because in his words "they can't show me anything I haven't already seen." He's also heavily invested in the TB12 company for his post-football future and his entire shtick with that is healthy living and workouts lead to longevity, ergo I'm still putting up MVP seasons at 44. He's also said he's going to play until he sucks.

BUT. If he plays well and has a great year again like he did this year, that's going to fuel him to say "I don't suck, I can still play at this level," and he'll keep going. If he wins the SB again, he'll want to do it again because he can still play. If he doesn't win the SB, he hates losing so he's going to want to try again. If he starts sucking, he's exactly the kind of maniac to not want to walk away on a low note.

I go over it again and again in my mind and have a hard time coming up with ANY scenario in which Brady steps away from the game happy and satisfied. He could have done that after SB 53. He could have done it after SB 55. In both cases he came back for yet another challenge. The challenge of taking a new team to the SB? Complete. Now what? The challenge of taking a badly injured team that just dumped a good yet insane WR to the SB? Sure, that's this year. When will he say "There are no more football worlds to conquer"?
I think you're projecting.

I can't imagine being Tom Brady and not being satisfied with my career when it's finally over. I'll speculate that it's more likely to end with an injury that knocks him out, and it just makes it unlikely for him to come back after a prolonged absence and need for recovery. But that's just my own wild guess.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I think you're projecting.

I can't imagine being Tom Brady and not being satisfied with my career when it's finally over. I'll speculate that it's more likely to end with an injury that knocks him out, and it just makes it unlikely for him to come back after a prolonged absence and need for recovery. But that's just my own wild guess.
He's twice had the opportunity to end his football career at the absolute pinnacle of the sport and the unquestioned GOAT. Twice he's declined to do so. I highly doubt he'll ever be satisfied with any ending; this is by all accounts a guy who still fumes about Black Sunday.
 

BroodsSexton

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He's twice had the opportunity to end his football career at the absolute pinnacle of the sport and the unquestioned GOAT. Twice he's declined to do so. I highly doubt he'll ever be satisfied with any ending; this is by all accounts a guy who still fumes about Black Sunday.
Right, but the measuring stick he's put for himself is not "end[ing] his football career at the absolute pinnacle of the sport and the unquestioned GOAT." It's to play until he can't play at that level any more. He's going out as the unquestioned GOAT whenever he goes out at this point. Whether he's at the "absolute pinnacle of the sport" remains to be seen, though in a macro perspective, he will necessarily be there as well, insofar as he will retire the greatest player of all time, with one of (if not the most) enduring careers.

It reminds me of an interview I saw with Jerry Seinfeld, when someone asked him if he was happy after he retired. He was like "Yeah, I was a kid from Queens with nothing living on people's couches and doing stand up, and I bet everything on myself and came up with Aces. Of course I'm happy. How could I not be?"

I feel like that's how Brady is going to be when he retires. How can he not be happy?
 

CreightonGubanich

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It's a good point that he may not ever leave satisfied. SJH is right that he'll either feel like he has something left in the tank when he retires, or he'll feel like he went out on a down note where he didn't meet the challenge.

Though, I'm not positive that lack of satisfaction is the reason Brady is still playing. Obviously, we don't know. But piecing his quotes together over the years, it really seems like he plays because it's the only thing he loves to do (besides family, etc.). In the latest Man in the Arena episode, Brady names a bunch of great men in various fields - artists, actors, musicians, writers, etc. - and points out that no one says they should just stop doing what they love and walk away. We only do it to athletes, because we're conditioned to believe there's a certain shelf life, and at some point they'll fall off a cliff. I think even Brady knows there will come a point where he can't do it anymore. But until then, why stop doing the only thing he loves? He's already navigating completely uncharted territory. Why not see how far he can push boundaries that have never been pushed before.

We know even less about what motivates Bill Belichick, but I wouldn't be surprised if his thoughts were similar. This is what he's devoted his life to. As long as he's one of the best in the world at it and has fun doing it, why stop?
 

BrazilianSoxFan

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View: https://twitter.com/NFLSTROUD/status/1478506210269745159


Rick Stroud
@NFLSTROUD

·23 h

Antonio Brown update below: Antonio's friends were worried about the pain he was experiencing so they encouraged him to see a top surgeon outside the Bucs' organization. That visit and an MRI confirm his serious pain and that story is developing...

Antonio is known for having a high pain threshold but the belief is Antonio probably should've never been on the field to begin with Sunday. And official statement from Brown's camp will be issued soon. They have stayed quiet since Sunday.
 

E5 Yaz

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Um, damn.

The Brown version of the Arians story is going to be he said/he said, but the medical stuff -- the painkiller and the bone fragments in the ankle -- are potentially interesting charges.

None of this excuses the antics as he left the field, but it's certainly not going away quickly
 

Mystic Merlin

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Um, damn.

The Brown version of the Arians story is going to be he said/he said, but the medical stuff -- the painkiller and the bone fragments in the ankle -- are potentially interesting charges.

None of this excuses the antics as he left the field, but it's certainly not going away quickly
This is the kind of investigation opportunity that Goodell lives for.

The NFLPA will put a ton of pressure on the league to investigate his claims, many of which can be corroborated by eyewitnesses and medical records.
 

thehitcat

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This is the kind of investigation opportunity that Goodell lives for.

The NFLPA will put a ton of pressure on the league to investigate his claims, many of which can be corroborated by eyewitnesses and medical records.
Ha Goodell is telling everyone in Tampa to destroy their phones as we speak. That said I'd love to see an actual review of what happened here. Looks like some smoke from here, but maybe it's just me hoping...
 

BroodsSexton

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The thing is, even if everything AB says is true, I don’t think it qualifies as the team cutting him. Yes, Arians is an ass (if true). But so?
 

PseuFighter

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I would think the hospital and the doctor named have a lot on the line here for AB's story to be true, no? Would make both look awful if they're full of it. The weird thing is with HIPPA there's no way of knowing for sure.
 

Mystic Merlin

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The thing is, even if everything AB says is true, I don’t think it qualifies as the team cutting him. Yes, Arians is an ass (if true). But so?
Yeah he’s not cut yet. I think they’re trying to set up the Bucs for an injury grievance if the Bucs cut him and make it harder to try to suspend him. And if they IR him, he gets his final game check.
 

Preacher

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I would think the hospital and the doctor named have a lot on the line here for AB's story to be true, no? Would make both look awful if they're full of it. The weird thing is with HIPPA there's no way of knowing for sure.
Yeah, HIPPA will prevent the doctor, AB, the Bucs, the NFL, or any of AB’s associates from saying anything about any medical treatment or diagnosis. Sucks.
 

snowmanny

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Yeah, HIPPA will prevent the doctor, AB, the Bucs, the NFL, or any of AB’s associates from saying anything about any medical treatment or diagnosis. Sucks.
HIPAA doesn’t prevent AB or his friends from saying anything.