Tompa Bay: Tom Tom Club

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
50,153
New York City
Brady is an outlier, but there are high-level athletes having longer elite careers than used to be the norm all over the place: Brees, James, all those tennis players.
ED: the NFL MVP last year was 37.
44 is so much older than 37.

It is a completely different thing altogether.
 

steveluck7

Member
SoSH Member
May 10, 2007
3,607
Burrillville, RI
Not sure if I agree with this. I think a significant chunk of people would embrace the "cheater" label for Brady and never let go, particularly when they could bundle it with the narrative that Brady was orchestrating the "illegal" deflation of footballs.

Plus we've seen from lots of people these days, logical consistency is not needed or employed by most people when making arguments, so I honestly believe a Brady PED scandal would stick to him.
Not to mention how much he would like everyone to link his current achievements to TB12. Getting popped for PEDs significantly affects that brand.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
12,560
44 is so much older than 37.

It is a completely different thing altogether.
Yes, but the point is that there are older quarterbacks playing at higher levels than there used to be, like, twenty years ago. Brady is still an outlier, like I said, but he's not as many standard deviations beyond the expected than he would be if he was doing this in 1994. I wouldn't rush to attribute it to PEDs or Lee Majors surgery. It's more nutrition, conditioning, quarterback protection, intelligence so as to avoid injury/hits, etc etc etc and a lot of players are following this path to one degree or another,.
 

Mantush

lurker
Jul 30, 2014
26
That's actually a good comp. It is amazing that Manning was having HGH delivered to his house and the NFL was like, "Eh."
If I remember correctly, Manning retired the same year the story broke. The NFL later dropped the investigation / cleared him of using banned substances. This actually happened during the Armstrong years as well. He tested positive once or twice, but the cycling governing body (UCI) covered it up because it wouldn't be good for the sport. Similarly, they ignored his connections to doctors frequently linked to PEDs. Point is, Armstrong was a huge brand and the UCI protected their star (and brand) every step of the way. Wouldn't surprise me if the NFL did the same thing.

Brady though? Fair or not, the Patriots have been embroiled in scandal after scandal. A good portion of the country already views Brady as a cheater after the deflategate scandal. A positive PED test would be the final nail in the coffin; it would vindicate everyone that has ever criticized him or called him (or the Patriots) a cheat, just like Armstrong's positive blood doping results in his comeback years did.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
12,560
If I remember correctly, Manning retired the same year the story broke. The NFL later dropped the investigation / cleared him of using banned substances. This actually happened during the Armstrong years as well. He tested positive once or twice, but the cycling governing body (UCI) covered it up because it wouldn't be good for the sport. Similarly, they ignored his connections to doctors frequently linked to PEDs. Point is, Armstrong was a huge brand and the UCI protected their star (and brand) every step of the way. Wouldn't surprise me if the NFL did the same thing.

Brady though? Fair or not, the Patriots have been embroiled in scandal after scandal. A good portion of the country already views Brady as a cheater after the deflategate scandal. A positive PED test would be the final nail in the coffin; it would vindicate everyone that has ever criticized him or called him (or the Patriots) a cheat, just like Armstrong's positive blood doping results in his comeback years did.
I agree with this. I just don't agree with the hypothesis that being good while old means PEDs. I get that that was Felger's stance on Ortiz but Felger is a fraud.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,244
Just one game, but...
Over the last three years he has had 2, 4, and 5 INTs over 16 games. 2 today.
Green Bay could be in for a rough (relative for them) year. Rodgers doesn’t really want to be there. Adams is focused on his next contract. And Jones just got paid and may not be as hungry as he was last couple of years. We’ll see how it plays out but if Rodgers checks out at some point, it could get ugly.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
That's actually a good comp. It is amazing that Manning was having HGH delivered to his house and the NFL was like, "Eh."
1. HGH delivered to his house.
2. Connected to Charlie Sly, a guy who sold PEDs to other athletes.
3. Connected to the very shady Guyer Institute.
4. Manning’s lawyers broke into Guyer to rifle through records.

I mean.... there can be no doubt if this was the evidence stacked against Brady, the entire world would question his legacy.

I mean they call him a cheater because they don’t even understand the laws of physics and because a ball guy is nicknamed “dorito dink”.
 
Aug 9, 2015
42
Green Bay could be in for a rough (relative for them) year. Rodgers doesn’t really want to be there. Adams is focused on his next contract. And Jones just got paid and may not be as hungry as he was last couple of years. We’ll see how it plays out but if Rodgers checks out at some point, it could get ugly.
I agree with this and I think we’ll know pretty early in the year (week 4 or 5) if it’s going to fall apart. As always, Rodgers is supremely confident, but he doesn’t sound to me like a guy who’s going to keep laying it on the line if he thinks it’s a lost cause, and his patience is near nil.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
8,012
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Just one game, but...
Over the last three years he has had 2, 4, and 5 INTs over 16 games. 2 today.
I'd be less concerned about the number of picks and more with the kind of play that led to them. The first interception especially was an innaccurate panicky throw under pressure I'm not sure I've ever seen him make. There's a lot riding on Rodgers this year, you can't have that kind of off-season and not back it up on the field. Looked a little checked out yesterday.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,294
Got in an argument with someone last night that Brady was "gifted" another SB last year and didn't even play well in the playoffs. His rationale was that he "almost lost to Washington" (Tom had 381 yards, 2 TDs and 0 Ints that game) and that he threw three picks against GB. Just complete cognitive dissonance on what actually happened.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
Brady's postseason last year:

22-40 (55.0%), 381 yds, 2 td, 0 int
18-33 (54.6%), 199 yds, 2 td, 0 int
20-36 (55.6%), 280 yds, 3 td, 3 int
21-29 (72.4%), 201 yds, 3 td, 0 int

TOT: 81-138 (58.7%), 1,061 yds, 7.7 y/a, 10 td, 3 int, 98.1 rating

The Super Bowl was terrific, but otherwise Brady wasn't *great* in last year's playoffs. He wasn't bad either, of course, nor was he "lucky" or "gifted". He was adequate the first three games and had a wonderful Super Bowl to cap the run.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
12,560
I am not sure why people would even try to make a numbers-based argument against Tom Brady’s greatness at this point. He took Tampa from irrelevance to the title without breaking a sweat. From a joke to total swagger. Someone thinks tons of QBs would have done exactly that? OK, sure.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
16,294
Brady's postseason last year:

22-40 (55.0%), 381 yds, 2 td, 0 int
18-33 (54.6%), 199 yds, 2 td, 0 int
20-36 (55.6%), 280 yds, 3 td, 3 int
21-29 (72.4%), 201 yds, 3 td, 0 int

TOT: 81-138 (58.7%), 1,061 yds, 7.7 y/a, 10 td, 3 int, 98.1 rating

The Super Bowl was terrific, but otherwise Brady wasn't *great* in last year's playoffs. He wasn't bad either, of course, nor was he "lucky" or "gifted". He was adequate the first three games and had a wonderful Super Bowl to cap the run.
Here is the thing when just looking at the numbers:

- In the first game Brady scores 31 points, throws for nearly 400 yards and 2 TDs without turning the ball over. That to me is a very strong game; he also averaged over 10 Y/A, so he was throwing the ball deep (which is why his completion percentage is low). To me that is a pretty great game, on the road in the playoffs.

- In New Orleans they spanked New Orleans so bad that he didn't have to do that much.

- The Green Bay game Brady had a brilliant first half and a meh second half. The three picks make his performance look worse than it really was. All three came on deep balls that were effectively punts, since they all pinned GB deep back in their own territory. The picks look bad, but they ultimately were not that consequential to the final result, because Brady limited the risk involved on those throws.

- In the SB he could have had way better numbers because he was picking KC apart. In the second half, Tampa realized they could basically run forever on KC's defense and wisely chose to do that to shorten the game and run out the clock. Brady could have easily done some great stat padding in the SB.

In totality, it's a pretty great playoff run imo, especially with three of the games taking place on the road.
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
3,317
Amstredam
I am not sure why people would even try to make a numbers-based argument against Tom Brady’s greatness at this point. He took Tampa from irrelevance to the title without breaking a sweat. From a joke to total swagger. Someone thinks tons of QBs would have done exactly that? OK, sure.
Tampa was a stacked team when Brady arrived with only weaknesses at QB and Head Coach which only Brady was able to fix both.

Brady on an average team is a repeat of the 2019 Pats.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
@Kliq

Being on the road is big, but remember, last year, there were basically no fans in the stands so being on the road was very different than in normal years. And the SB was at "home" for them.

Brady's completion percentage over the first three games wasn't good, and the three picks...you can kind of justify them as you have, but they were still picks. Moreover...

INT #1 - GB had just scored to cut the lead to 28-17. Brady threw an INT on 2nd and 10. It wasn't like it was 3rd and 15 so what the heck. And it only "netted" 30 yards of field position, so it was worse (for TB) than a punt. GB took over at their 32.

INT #2 - GB had just scored to cut the lead to 28-23. Brady threw an INT on 2nd and 11. This was more like a punt than the first one, but still...on 2nd and 11, gaining eleven yards in two downs is totally doable for Tampa's offense, so you don't "punt" on second down. Moreover, they were at Green Bay's 28 yard line, so this INT cost Tampa points.

INT #3 - Score still 28-23. Brady is facing 3rd and 2 from the Tampa 46. The kind of conversion that's routinely made by Brady and the TB (or back in the day, the NE) offense. This "punt" nets 30 yards of field position, which is worse than a punt. GB took over at their 24.

So no, it wasn't just like punting. Two of them were on second down, where you'd never ever punt. One of them actually cost Tampa Bay points. One of them was on 3rd and 2 that should have been a routine conversion for TB. And on the two that didn't cost them points (thought the first one led to a GB touchdown), neither was as good as a punt.

So I'm not buying it. He was brilliant in the first half, and not very good in the second half. Thankfully it didn't cost them.
 

TheMoralBully

lurker
Oct 10, 2005
157
I wouldn't call Tampa stacked last year. Chris Godwin was hurt all year and never looked right, same with Evans. Gronk was still a great player, but far from peak Gronk and I actually think he's looking better this year. Their RBs were hardly dynamic game changers and had fumble issues. Antonio Brown was probably his favorite target and he was 32, missed the GB game and wasn't super impactful in the playoffs. Then you have the Arians/Leftwich combo, which isn't making anyone jealous.

This wasn't the 2007 Pats or the 2013 Broncos; they were definitely talented, but I really don't feel like Brady was stepping into some kind of ideal situation or anything. It doesn't even look like Brady was choosing his team here, because we know the Titans turned him down, and interest was low league-wide.
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
3,317
Amstredam
I wouldn't call Tampa stacked last year. Chris Godwin was hurt all year and never looked right, same with Evans. Gronk was still a great player, but far from peak Gronk and I actually think he's looking better this year. Their RBs were hardly dynamic game changers and had fumble issues. Antonio Brown was probably his favorite target and he was 32, missed the GB game and wasn't super impactful in the playoffs. Then you have the Arians/Leftwich combo, which isn't making anyone jealous.

This wasn't the 2007 Pats or the 2013 Broncos; they were definitely talented, but I really don't feel like Brady was stepping into some kind of ideal situation or anything. It doesn't even look like Brady was choosing his team here, because we know the Titans turned him down, and interest was low league-wide.
Out of curiosity which teams would you say had a better supporting cast outside of QB last year than Tampa?

And yes they won in spite of Arians.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
50,153
New York City
Out of curiosity which teams would you say had a better supporting cast outside of QB last year than Tampa?

And yes they won in spite of Arians.
Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, New Orleans, maybe Indy, maybe Tennessee, The Rams, Seattle.

Otherwise, Brady really accomplished nothing taking a team that hadn't won a playoff game in 19 years to the Super Bowl and winning.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, New Orleans, maybe Indy, maybe Tennessee, The Rams, Seattle.

Otherwise, Brady really accomplished nothing taking a team that hadn't won a playoff game in 19 years to the Super Bowl and winning.
Well NOBODY is saying that Brady accomplished "nothing". It was an incredible achievement and is icing on the Brady GOAT cake. All *I* am saying (not that you're necessarily speaking to me here, but I am in on this convo) is that he played great in the SB and great in the first half of the GB game, but did have some struggles, especially in the second half of the GB game.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
50,153
New York City
Well NOBODY is saying that Brady accomplished "nothing". It was an incredible achievement and is icing on the Brady GOAT cake. All *I* am saying (not that you're necessarily speaking to me here, but I am in on this convo) is that he played great in the SB and great in the first half of the GB game, but did have some struggles, especially in the second half of the GB game.
I definitely agree about the 2nd half of the Packers game. That was poor play.

But every QB has a game or a half where nothing is working. Josh Allen did nothing against the Chiefs. Mahomes did absolutely nothing against Tampa. Brees did nothing, period. Goff was useless in their loss to GB. Lamar couldn't do dick against the Bills. My boy Mitchell Trubisky in the Nickelodeon game was more of a joke than an actual player.

So every QB has some poor periods.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
I mean he sucked against Houston in the 2016 divisional. Who cares?
Well the conversation has taken a turn a number of posts ago talking about whether Brady was "gifted" his latest SB, and it led to talking about his play in those games. It's fair fodder for this thread.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,246
Dallas
Tampa Bay was stacked in 2019 with Jameis at the helm but obviously not at QB, stacked in 2020, and stacked in 2021. They were shallow at RB. They had some questions about corners who developed well. There are some things worth debating/discussing but whether or not TB was loaded is not one of them.
 

TheMoralBully

lurker
Oct 10, 2005
157
Out of curiosity which teams would you say had a better supporting cast outside of QB last year than Tampa?

And yes they won in spite of Arians.
Cowboys, Chiefs, Bills, Steelers, Titans, Packers, Rams and Saints are teams I'd put up with Tampa in terms of complete supporting cast. Not necessarily over.

I get where you are coming from and I probably shouldn't have said they weren't stacked. I was speaking more on the NBA/Heat comparison, I guess, where Brady was stepping into a situation and creating some kind of super team. He put the Buccs on equal footing with the likes of the Chiefs, Saints, etc and ultimately won out. And again, I think coaching and chemistry weren't something just any other QB was going to overcome within the season.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
I definitely agree about the 2nd half of the Packers game. That was poor play.

But every QB has a game or a half where nothing is working. Josh Allen did nothing against the Chiefs. Mahomes did absolutely nothing against Tampa. Brees did nothing, period. Goff was useless in their loss to GB. Lamar couldn't do dick against the Bills. My boy Mitchell Trubisky in the Nickelodeon game was more of a joke than an actual player.

So every QB has some poor periods.
Yes absolutely. Brady's had some BAD moments and stretches in the playoffs. Doesn't take away from his greatness. I mean the guy has been in *45* playoff games (!!!!!). He's not all gonna have amazing performances. It's ok to say that he was incredible last year to win a SB, and yet acknowledge that he played poorly in the 2nd half of the GB game and was a bit lucky that it didn't cost them.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
13,010
You know who was "gifted" a Super Bowl? Peyton Manning. The idea that Brady was "gifted" one last season is so absurd it does not merit serious discussion.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
50,153
New York City
You know who was "gifted" a Super Bowl? Peyton Manning. The idea that Brady was "gifted" one last season is so absurd it does not merit serious discussion.
I agree with this guy.

Tampa Bay, that LOADED team everyone is talking about, hadn't been to the playoffs in well over a decade. They hadn't won a playoff game in almost two decades. That's almost 20 years, by the way. In that time, the Sox have won 4 World Series, to give an indication of how long that is. Tom Brady goes there and they win the super bowl.

If anything, TB12 gifted Tampa the super bowl, not the other way around.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
8,012
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Well NOBODY is saying that Brady accomplished "nothing". It was an incredible achievement and is icing on the Brady GOAT cake. All *I* am saying (not that you're necessarily speaking to me here, but I am in on this convo) is that he played great in the SB and great in the first half of the GB game, but did have some struggles, especially in the second half of the GB game.
He was awesome against Washington. Really awesome. You guys aren't remembering the 50 drops the Bucs had that game. He played amazing.

Also, Tampa has great talent at receiver and front seven. That OL is good but no one said it was a strength when Brady went there, the running game is pretty trash and the secondary is as meh as it gets. It's not the wagon some people paint it as, although they are in the conversation for best roster in football. Peyton had more overall talent around him in Denver, for instance.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
13,691
You know who was "gifted" a Super Bowl? Peyton Manning. The idea that Brady was "gifted" one last season is so absurd it does not merit serious discussion.
Definitely agree on Manning. He did virtually nothing in his last SB run. He was horrible all season and in the playoffs that year.
 

Big McCorkle

Member
SoSH Member
May 9, 2021
114
The funny thing about the NFFCG against Green Bay is that even with the three interceptions, relative to Rodgers Brady still posted more total EPA, an EPA/play over twice as high, and a roughly equal PFF grade, both players grading out pretty well. It really sort of highlights how such turnovers down the field are really somewhat overrated compared to other stuff, such as repeatedly going three-and-out and being unable to generate any offense whatsoever after said turnovers--but at least bad sacks taken and incompletions don't look so bad in the box score.

Also, Brady was fucking incredible, lights-out against the WFT. He was ridiculously dominant in that game. I'm pretty sure Godwin dropped more passes there than he had in the rest of his career or something like that. Maybe just the rest of the season.

Tampa Bay was stacked in 2019 with Jameis at the helm but obviously not at QB, stacked in 2020, and stacked in 2021. They were shallow at RB. They had some questions about corners who developed well. There are some things worth debating/discussing but whether or not TB was loaded is not one of them.
The roster was stacked on paper but the general playcalling for pretty much the entire season up until the bye week when some of the stuff seemed to get fixed (and not just playcalling like a lack of play action, but also just bizarre practices like rarely ever putting a man in motion), and the receiver position in general never really gelled all that well. The team was less than the sum of its parts, at least until late in the season, and, well, they won the goddamn Super Bowl, so they didn't exactly underperform in the end, unlike all the other stacked rosters that didn't manage to do that.
 

SMU_Sox

queer eye for the next pats guy
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2009
7,246
Dallas
The funny thing about the NFFCG against Green Bay is that even with the three interceptions, relative to Rodgers Brady still posted more total EPA, an EPA/play over twice as high, and a roughly equal PFF grade, both players grading out pretty well. It really sort of highlights how such turnovers down the field are really somewhat overrated compared to other stuff, such as repeatedly going three-and-out and being unable to generate any offense whatsoever after said turnovers--but at least bad sacks taken and incompletions don't look so bad in the box score.

Also, Brady was fucking incredible, lights-out against the WFT. He was ridiculously dominant in that game. I'm pretty sure Godwin dropped more passes there than he had in the rest of his career or something like that. Maybe just the rest of the season.


The roster was stacked on paper but the general playcalling for pretty much the entire season up until the bye week when some of the stuff seemed to get fixed (and not just playcalling like a lack of play action, but also just bizarre practices like rarely ever putting a man in motion), and the receiver position in general never really gelled all that well. The team was less than the sum of its parts, at least until late in the season, and, well, they won the goddamn Super Bowl, so they didn't exactly underperform in the end, unlike all the other stacked rosters that didn't manage to do that.
That is a valid point - they took about half a year to find their rhythm with Brady at the helm. Defensively though they’ve been fairly consistent for the last 3 years. The poster who brought up the point they weren’t stacked pointed to running back, arguably the least important position on the team, and WR on a team with Evans, Godwin, and AB. Tight end was fine too with Brate, Gronk, and Howard (he’s been a perennial disappointment). They have one of the best IOLs in football and Wirfs played like a borderline pro-bowler as a rookie. Smith is their weakest link at LT and even he is around league average or a tick below. Defensively they had a top 5, top 3?, LB duo with David and White. Bowles is a fantastic DC even if he failed as a HC. If you look at their WRs, OL, defensive front 7, and DBs it’s hard to see why anyone would say they aren’t stacked. If the argument is they are underperforming it’s because their roster is better than the results which points to the team being stacked. Again seems like an asinine thing to discuss whether or not the Bucs were stacked or not. They were and they are. If the point is how much Brady and Bruce had to work together to get a better product that’s fair. But that wasn’t what I was objecting to.
 

TheMoralBully

lurker
Oct 10, 2005
157
That is a valid point - they took about half a year to find their rhythm with Brady at the helm. Defensively though they’ve been fairly consistent for the last 3 years. The poster who brought up the point they weren’t stacked pointed to running back, arguably the least important position on the team, and WR on a team with Evans, Godwin, and AB. Tight end was fine too with Brate, Gronk, and Howard (he’s been a perennial disappointment). They have one of the best IOLs in football and Wirfs played like a borderline pro-bowler as a rookie. Smith is their weakest link at LT and even he is around league average or a tick below. Defensively they had a top 5, top 3?, LB duo with David and White. Bowles is a fantastic DC even if he failed as a HC. If you look at their WRs, OL, defensive front 7, and DBs it’s hard to see why anyone would say they aren’t stacked. If the argument is they are underperforming it’s because their roster is better than the results which points to the team being stacked. Again seems like an asinine thing to discuss whether or not the Bucs were stacked or not. They were and they are. If the point is how much Brady and Bruce had to work together to get a better product that’s fair. But that wasn’t what I was objecting to.
I already responded clarifying earlier, but the choice of saying the roster isn't stacked was indeed pretty stupid.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
8,012
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Tom on playing to 50 now https://nesn.com/2021/09/can-tom-brady-play-until-hes-50-bucs-qb-confident-in-ability/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

“I don’t find it so difficult,” Brady said during his segment on “Tommy & Gronky” with Rob Gronkowski. “Plus in Florida, it’s kind of a retiree state, so I feel like I can play and just glide into retirement. I think I can. I think it’s a yes.”
50 sounds completely ridiculous, I don't think he could be say, a Teddy Bridgewater level QB at that age. But I can remember thinking that with 45, so who the fuck knows.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,890
Hingham, MA
50 sounds completely ridiculous, I don't think he could be say, a Teddy Bridgewater level QB at that age. But I can remember thinking that with 45, so who the fuck knows.
I'm not so sure it sounds completely ridiculous any more. He'll be 50 in 6 years.