Tompa Bay: Tom Tom Club

johnmd20

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At some point you do have to become more of a pocket passer who makes quick decisions, limits the amount of risky throws, picks up blitzes quickly or audibles out of them, and run a standard offense. People who know more about the Xs and Os might say that Mahomes already does this at an elite level, but watching him I find a lot of his success hinges on broken plays and relying on his athleticism.
This is untrue. You're just thinking of the Super Bowl when Mahomes was running for his life. That isn't normally how Mahomes plays. In the SB, he had no choice.

His success hinges on the fact that he's a generational talent as a pocket passer who also happens to be one of the best of all time at improvising, too. He cannot improvise in this manner forever, but Mahomes is going to be just fine from the pocket. He's got a cannon.
 

Ralphwiggum

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The one thing about looking at the QBs who have played for the last 20 years and citing the fact that they have so few rings compared to Brady, is that Brady and the Pats are a big reason why. Peyton Manning almost assuredly would have more, Roethlisberger would have more, Wilson would probably have one more, etc. etc. Mahomes will probably not face an obstacle like the Pats have been for everyone else (unless BB just re-loads with Mac, coaches until he's 80, and wins six more). Having said that, all of those guys probably have 1-2 more rings if Brady and the Pats never existed, but that still only gets Manning to 3 or 4, Wilson to 2, Roethlisberger to 3 or 4. There is no universe where any one of them get to six.
 

BusRaker

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Troy Aikman playing on a stacked Dallas team past his tenth concussion at 34 (with today's rules how many would not have happened?) without a Steve Young in the conference could have gotten to 6 or 7 I think.

Yeah a couple of big ifs and I hate the Cowboys but ...
 

Ralphwiggum

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Troy Aikman playing on a stacked Dallas team past his tenth concussion at 34 (with today's rules how many would not have happened?) without a Steve Young in the conference could have gotten to 6 or 7 I think.

Yeah a couple of big ifs and I hate the Cowboys but ...
Eh. JJ leaving had a bigger effect I think, but the advent of the salary cap in ‘94 sunk the cowboys. Johnson was a great coach and GM when the NFL allowed you to stockpile talent like college. Not so much his second go around with the Dolphins post salary cap.
 

johnmd20

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Eh. JJ leaving had a bigger effect I think, but the advent of the salary cap in ‘94 sunk the cowboys. Johnson was a great coach and GM when the NFL allowed you to stockpile talent like college. Not so much his second go around with the Dolphins post salary cap.
They did win the Super Bowl in the year after JJ left.
 

Ralphwiggum

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They did win the Super Bowl in the year after JJ left.
Yeah but that was Switzer steering the unsinkable ship that JJ had built. But either way some combo of the salary cap and Jerrah deciding that he was better at picking players than JJ sunk them way more than Aikman’s concussions.
 

johnmd20

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Yeah but that was Switzer steering the unsinkable ship that JJ had built. But either way some combo of the salary cap and Jerrah deciding that he was better at picking players than JJ sunk them way more than Aikman’s concussions.
Oh yeah, Jerry was the problem. No doubt.

But, still, Jimmy Johnson left and the team won a super bowl the next year. A team doesn't run on auto pilot, although Switzer did have a lot of advantages.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Oh yeah, Jerry was the problem. No doubt.

But, still, Jimmy Johnson left and the team won a super bowl the next year. A team doesn't run on auto pilot, although Switzer did have a lot of advantages.
I think that Cowboys win proves that you can win a SB on autopilot. Barry Switzer was a fucking boob.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Mahomes ain't catching Brady in any category.

Mostly, because Brady might still be playing by the time Mahomes retires.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Mahomes ain't catching Brady in any category.

Mostly, because Brady might still be playing by the time Mahomes retires.
I was half joking about this in the gamethread. Unlike most aged QBs, Brady isn't a wealth of football knowledge stacked on something held together with twine and duct tape. He is in reasonably good shape so he may well stay in the game longer than even he was anticipating.

As a side note, I hope he shares some of his football knowledge publicly when he does finally retire. That would be fascinating to hear in just about any format.
 

lexrageorge

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Brady threw 50 passes last night. Which would make last night the 29th time that Brady has had to hoist the ball 50 or more times (including playoffs). It's a notable number because traditionally, teams do quite poorly when their QB has to put the ball in the air 50 times.

Brady's record in those games is 20-9, including a 6-2 record in the playoffs. That's a 0.689 winning percentage, over a sample size of nearly 2 seasons worth of games. For comparison:

Peyton Manning: 4-13, 0.235 [all regular season]
Drew Brees: 4-15, 0.211 (includes 0-2 in playoffs)
Aaron Rodgers: 3-6, 0.333 [all regular season]
Ben Roethlisberger: 4-11, 0.267 (includes 0-2 in playoffs)
Patrick Mahomes: 1-1, 0.500 [all regular season]

System QB/game manager my ass.
 

johnmd20

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System QB/game manager my ass.
Again, who is saying this about Brady? Who has said this about Brady in the last 10 years, other than idiots like Scott, Simms and Kellerman?

Brady is widely regarded as the best player in the history of sports. He is spoken about with honor and reverence. I don't get why people are continually fighting these Brady strawmen. He's properly rated, in that he's the greatest player in the history of organized sports.
 

lexrageorge

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Again, who is saying this about Brady? Who has said this about Brady in the last 10 years, other than idiots like Scott, Simms and Kellerman?

Brady is widely regarded as the best player in the history of sports. He is spoken about with honor and reverence. I don't get why people are continually fighting these Brady strawmen. He's properly rated, in that he's the greatest player in the history of organized sports.
It was tongue in cheek, not a serious retort. But it honestly never gets old trolling the "system QB" folks from way back, which did include a couple of prominent trolls in this forum. It's like Borges and the Seymour/Light draft.
 
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rodderick

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Again, who is saying this about Brady? Who has said this about Brady in the last 10 years, other than idiots like Scott, Simms and Kellerman?

Brady is widely regarded as the best player in the history of sports. He is spoken about with honor and reverence. I don't get why people are continually fighting these Brady strawmen. He's properly rated, in that he's the greatest player in the history of organized sports.
The only reason he still has haters is because he hasn't retired. As soon as he leaves, even the media people who gain notoriety by stirring the pot with their Brady hot takes will talk about him with nothing but reverence. While he's on the field someone has to play contrarian. It's the same with LeBron.
 

rodderick

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Did last nights game say more about Dallas being better than many thought or that Tampa isn’t as good as everyone has anointed them?
Or was it simply another case of Any Given Sunday(Thursday)?
Dallas offense is really good, Dak was better out of the shoot than a lot of people expected, Tampa's defense is toast if they can't get pressure and on offense they make a ton of stupid mistakes that they have to make up for with sheer talent. I think this game wasn't all that unexpected as long as you take this Bucs team as the average of what they were for the entirety of last year and not just project them to be better than the steamroller they looked like after their bye week. Brady, Gronk and Brown were basically the only guys on the team to play at a high level for 60 minutes and that was pretty much enough.
 

Import78

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Did last nights game say more about Dallas being better than many thought or that Tampa isn’t as good as everyone has anointed them?
Or was it simply another case of Any Given Sunday(Thursday)?
I didn't see the whole game, but didn't Tampa lose a couple of key secondary pieces? That can cause significant trickle down impacts if depth and preparation isn't up to snuff.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I didn't see the whole game, but didn't Tampa lose a couple of key secondary pieces? That can cause significant trickle down impacts if depth and preparation isn't up to snuff.
Yep, Murphy-Bunting, arguably their best player in the secondary, dislocated his elbow in the 1st quarter, and was replaced by Cockrell, who isn't very good. Jordan Whitehead was supposed to probably be their starting safety, and he didn't play due to a hamstring injury, was replaced by either Adams or Edwards, and one of them got hurt during the game, but I think returned later.
 

Cornboy14

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Tampa's defense is toast if they can't get pressure
I think Dallas just zagged on Tampa and they never adjusted. Clearly they were having Dak just get the ball out super quickly. TB kept sending 6+ guys into that wood chipper. Seemed like they should have been faking the blitz more and dropping David / White. I know Bowles is great, but maybe he just had a bad game.

It'll be interesting to see the TB Blitz % and Dak's Average Depth of Target.
 

Bowhemian

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Yep, Murphy-Bunting, arguably their best player in the secondary, dislocated his elbow in the 1st quarter, and was replaced by Cockrell, who isn't very good. Jordan Whitehead was supposed to probably be their starting safety, and he didn't play due to a hamstring injury, was replaced by either Adams or Edwards, and one of them got hurt during the game, but I think returned later.
I won't link the video due to grossness, but when I saw the replay last night, I couldn't look away fast enough. It was pretty gruesome. Not sure what the recovery time is for that.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I won't link the video due to grossness, but when I saw the replay last night, I couldn't look away fast enough. It was pretty gruesome. Not sure what the recovery time is for that.
Reports are that he'll be back relatively soon. No definitive timetable, but Arians was pretty optimistic.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Did last nights game say more about Dallas being better than many thought or that Tampa isn’t as good as everyone has anointed them?
Or was it simply another case of Any Given Sunday(Thursday)?
Tampa was favored by 8 and won by 2, I don’t think that difference is significant. If I were a Tampa fan I wouldn’t be concerned, particularly since it’s only Week 1.

But I also wouldn’t be concerned if I were a Dallas fan since they also looked pretty good (well, offensively, anyway). This game kinda reminded me of the Pats-Seahawks game in week 2 (or 3?) last year where it felt like both teams probably felt ok with the performance even though the Pats fell just short.
 

Soxy

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I think Dallas just zagged on Tampa and they never adjusted. Clearly they were having Dak just get the ball out super quickly. TB kept sending 6+ guys into that wood chipper. Seemed like they should have been faking the blitz more and dropping David / White. I know Bowles is great, but maybe he just had a bad game.

It'll be interesting to see the TB Blitz % and Dak's Average Depth of Target.
Next gen stats has them with a 37% blitz rate, with Dak averaging 8.5 YPA against the blitz. He did a great job hanging in the pocket under duress. Took some shots and still kept hanging in there.

During the game, Collinsworth made a comment that the Bucs “weren’t blitzing much”, which seemed strange as it definitely felt like they were. Stats seem to back that up. Not sure what Collinsworth was looking at.
 

Cornboy14

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Baldy is the best
It's funny because I have this memory of him being god awful as a color commentator on FOX, and he's fantastic on Twitter. Maybe my memory is wrong or I was unfair to him back then, or maybe Twitter, with more time to put his thoughts together, is just a better medium for him.
 

kfoss99

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I wanted to put Brady's 40 and older years into some kind of perspective.
So, with some help from the Pro Football Hall of Fame's website listing all players over 40 and ProFootballReference.com I was able to come up with some stats.

Including Drew Brees & Tom Brady I listed 20 Quarterbacks who had at least a year 40 year listed on PFR.

Total completions were 4,707. Total yards were 55,252. Total TDs were 386.

Brady has (and counting) 1,566 completions (33.27% off all). 17,701 yards (32.04% of all) and 129 TDs (33.42% of all).

Moon, Testaverde, and Favre COMBINED in their 40s match what Brady has done so far.

It doesn't seem unrealistic that he could have ~50% of all these stats for every QB before he's done.
 

worm0082

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Unless he suffers a severe injury or completely drops off I think he’s going for Blanda’s age record. Which I think would occur sometime around December 2025. He’d tie the record for most seasons played and be pretty close to the all time regular season games played record.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Unless he suffers a severe injury or completely drops off I think he’s going for Blanda’s age record. Which I think would occur sometime around December 2025. He’d tie the record for most seasons played and be pretty close to the all time regular season games played record.
I was thinking about this as well.

Hes ALWAYS said 45. And I dont think hes given any indication that he plans to go older. But...

He seems to be having a lot of fun right now. If a team surrounds him with elite talent, he can clearly still deliver at an elite level, and as weird as it is to say, I'm not sure that changes in the next few years (barring injury, of course). None of us have any idea obviously, but anyone betting against the Goat is playing with fire.
 

rodderick

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I was thinking about this as well.

Hes ALWAYS said 45. And I dont think hes given any indication that he plans to go older. But...

He seems to be having a lot of fun right now. If a team surrounds him with elite talent, he can clearly still deliver at an elite level, and as weird as it is to say, I'm not sure that changes in the next few years (barring injury, of course). None of us have any idea obviously, but anyone betting against the Goat is playing with fire.
I think he said 45 back when he had at least some doubts, now that he might be looking better than ever at 44, I think his family and injuries are the only thing that can stop him from pushing, say, 47. It's ridiculous how good he looks physically, there's no drop off.
 

The Raccoon

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The bottom line is that while Mahomes is a fantastic QB, he's human
... which makes every comparison to a (semi-)god a moot point.

I also think the whole "playing till 45" was only used by Tom when he was ~41 as in "I'm not even close to finished", not some magical limit that has any significance a couple years (and SB wins) later...
 
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I believe I read somewhere that Giselle is less opposed to it now bc of the change in scenery, vibe and freer lifestyle that playing for the Bucs has afforded him.
 

BaseballJones

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What Brady is doing is basically superhuman in football terms. So is this just a total freak thing, that it works for one guy because sometimes there are crazy outliers? Or does this give credence to the TB12 method?

As a huge Brady fan that’s concerned both about his legacy and the legacy of the Pats dynasty, I don’t want to consider another possibility but I’m sure anti-Brady people already have.
 

snowmanny

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What Brady is doing is basically superhuman in football terms. So is this just a total freak thing, that it works for one guy because sometimes there are crazy outliers? Or does this give credence to the TB12 method?

As a huge Brady fan that’s concerned both about his legacy and the legacy of the Pats dynasty, I don’t want to consider another possibility but I’m sure anti-Brady people already have.
Brady is an outlier, but there are high-level athletes having longer elite careers than used to be the norm all over the place: Brees, James, all those tennis players.
ED: the NFL MVP last year was 37.
 

tims4wins

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Brady is an outlier, but there are high-level athletes having longer elite careers than used to be the norm all over the place: Brees, James, all those tennis players.
ED: the NFL MVP last year was 37.
Not to mention, Brady won the MVP at 40 in 2017, and Manning won it at 37 in 2013. Rich Gannon even won it at 37 in 2002
 

Ralphwiggum

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What Brady is doing is basically superhuman in football terms. So is this just a total freak thing, that it works for one guy because sometimes there are crazy outliers? Or does this give credence to the TB12 method?

As a huge Brady fan that’s concerned both about his legacy and the legacy of the Pats dynasty, I don’t want to consider another possibility but I’m sure anti-Brady people already have.
I mean, chances are Brady is taking something he technically shouldn’t be taking, like almost every other NFL player. Yeah it would be bigger news because of who he is, and the haters would be lined up to take their shots, but really nobody cares about this issue anymore. In Edelman’s retirement thread I don’t think there’s one mention of it.

Im just not sure why it’s important to believe these guys are clean. If Brady tested positive it’d be a huge story, his PR team would trot out whatever excuse made the most sense, he would apologize and take his suspension and when he came back pretty much nobody would care.
 

Kliq

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I mean, chances are Brady is taking something he technically shouldn’t be taking, like almost every other NFL player. Yeah it would be bigger news because of who he is, and the haters would be lined up to take their shots, but really nobody cares about this issue anymore. In Edelman’s retirement thread I don’t think there’s one mention of it.

Im just not sure why it’s important to believe these guys are clean. If Brady tested positive it’d be a huge story, his PR team would trot out whatever excuse made the most sense, he would apologize and take his suspension and when he came back pretty much nobody would care.
If Brady tested positive for PEDs and got suspended it would be a GIGANTIC story, are you kidding?
 

deanx0

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I’m not saying it wouldn’t be a huge story in the moment. I’m saying it would eventually fade and wouldn’t have any real impact on his legacy.
Not sure if I agree with this. I think a significant chunk of people would embrace the "cheater" label for Brady and never let go, particularly when they could bundle it with the narrative that Brady was orchestrating the "illegal" deflation of footballs.

Plus we've seen from lots of people these days, logical consistency is not needed or employed by most people when making arguments, so I honestly believe a Brady PED scandal would stick to him.
 

rodderick

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I’m not saying it wouldn’t be a huge story in the moment. I’m saying it would eventually fade and wouldn’t have any real impact on his legacy.
Lol, I bet he wouldn't even be a first ballot hall of famer if he were suspended for PEDs. People have been looking for any justification to discredit his accomplishments for 20+ years, no one is letting that go.