Tom Wilson

kenneycb

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Good, then we agree Tom was going for his head, and where he actually landed it with force is a matter of subjective interpretation. I think in Zaprudering it a few times that the force goes basically into the side of his lower neck. He did this to a guy lying face down on the ice. It sounds like you feel it’s his collarbone. The discussion just illustrates how little that actually matters, because his intent was with malice, and he’s a douchenozzle.

As for the Rangers statement, holy shit. Scorched Earth! I love it.
I agree with your conclusion. May not agree on how you got there but, eh, fuck process, play to results. This already got more granular than I’d prefer but Internet points and all.
 

kenneycb

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Not blaming the victim. My point is instead that, in a sport with a heavy mystique of and encouragement of violence, the pearl clutching that has emerged today when a player goes too far over the line like Wilson did is pretty ironic.
What’s the point of having rules then?
 

Zedia

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That reminds me. Thornton got a match penalty for his takedown of Orpik, under NHL rule 46.15 ("A match penalty shall be assessed to a player or goalkeeper who punches an unsuspecting opponent and causes an injury"). Why did that not apply to what he did against Panerin?
As someone noted earlier, Panerin literally jumped on his back. Wilson may have used some “excessive force”, but Panerin wasn’t unsuspecting at that point.
 

TheRealness

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I agree with your conclusion. May not agree on how you got there but, eh, fuck process, play to results. This already got more granular than I’d prefer but Internet points and all.
Yeah I’m just being a pedantic asshole because I hate Tom Wilson.

I’m going to need heart medication so I don’t have a rage heart attack watching him play the Bruins in a seven game series.
 

lexrageorge

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Good for the Rangers; there are times when it pays to come out swinging, even if it doesn't change the immediate result.

I'll never understand the hate people here had for Shanahan; he was at least open and transparent about the decision process. The guy in charge of player safety now is utterly useless.
 

RG33

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It is really hard for me to understand the takes in here that this was not an egregiously violent play by Wilson that deserves suspension.

Also, I am totally comfortable wishing a career-ending injury on that piece of shit. I hope it is super painful too — and prevents him from playing with his grandkids some day. Fuck that guy.
 

Myt1

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The Thornton video is most instructive for what someone should do to Wilson.

You know Miller offered to go with him when the talked during warm ups a while back. He wouldn’t. But he’s flexing in the box after this?

Someone should try to end his career or take out a knee of one of his teammates. Obviously the league isn’t going to exercise its monopoly on violence to keep order, so self help remedies are what’s left.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The Thornton video is most instructive for what someone should do to Wilson.

You know Miller offered to go with him when the talked during warm ups a while back. He wouldn’t. But he’s flexing in the box after this?

Someone should try to end his career or take out a knee of one of his teammates. Obviously the league isn’t going to exercise its monopoly on violence to keep order, so self help remedies are what’s left.
And if the target turns his back in the slightest before a charge at the numbers, or a high hit brushes the slightest piece of shoulder cloth before demolishing the guy’s cranium, it’ll be deemed an unfortunate but clean hit!
 

Myt1

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Seriously, the Rangers should run every single player who doesn’t rest. $5,000 max fine? Have at it.
 

RetractableRoof

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Not blaming the victim. My point is instead that, in a sport with a heavy mystique of and encouragement of violence, the pearl clutching that has emerged today when a player goes too far over the line like Wilson did is pretty ironic.
I love fighting in hockey, I love UFC, I love any number of violent activities. When the opponent gets knocked out in the UFC, I want the ref to safeguard the guy who is out on his feet and stop the fight. Is that pearl clutching? Loving violence between combatants engaged within a rough set of rules, and a code/ethics that seem to cover the gaps is one thing (that maybe is of questionable morality, no doubt). But when players do things intending to simply render the other player hors de combat, that goes far beyond the game, far beyond the code the players operate within. If Wilson had spun Panarin around and laid his face open with 5-6 punches, no one is complaining (except maybe Panarin and/or his wife). Look at it this way, if Panarin had not rotated a few degrees, his head slaps the ice pretty damn hard - maybe he bleeds all over the ice. Wilson would have been suspended just because of the optics. But I don't believe that "no harm, no foul" should mean he escapes penalty there. It was an an attempt to injure, and it's not pearl clutching to recognize that - even for a cave man that loves violence that fits (loosely) within the framework of the rules.
 

Bread of Yaz

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I love fighting in hockey, I love UFC, I love any number of violent activities. When the opponent gets knocked out in the UFC, I want the ref to safeguard the guy who is out on his feet and stop the fight. Is that pearl clutching? Loving violence between combatants engaged within a rough set of rules, and a code/ethics that seem to cover the gaps is one thing (that maybe is of questionable morality, no doubt). But when players do things intending to simply render the other player hors de combat, that goes far beyond the game, far beyond the code the players operate within. If Wilson had spun Panarin around and laid his face open with 5-6 punches, no one is complaining (except maybe Panarin and/or his wife). Look at it this way, if Panarin had not rotated a few degrees, his head slaps the ice pretty damn hard - maybe he bleeds all over the ice. Wilson would have been suspended just because of the optics. But I don't believe that "no harm, no foul" should mean he escapes penalty there. It was an an attempt to injure, and it's not pearl clutching to recognize that - even for a cave man that loves violence that fits (loosely) within the framework of the rules.
So what would you do about Sidney Crosby slamming Konecny's head to the ice last night? Seemed hors de combat too.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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So what would you do about Sidney Crosby slamming Konecny's head to the ice last night? Seemed hors de combat too.
$100 fine, donated to the NHLCARES about TBI, because it is Syd the Kid.
For Wilson that would be $2000, and a memo from the DPS that "they are deeply concerned about that pattern of behavior".
For Marchand it would be a 10 game suspension, and the Patriots (sic) would lose a 2nd round draft pick next year.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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That video picks up only after Crosby pushed his head down to the ice and is misleading. I dont know how to embed a better one that shows the whole play or I would
I'll take a look for it. I hadnt seen it live and this was the video that popped up.
 

LogansDad

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Where the Wilson play was intent to injure, the Crosby play was intent to annoy...pretty clear difference in the two in my book.
Seriously, anyone who can watch both those videos and think they are even close to the same thing is being willfully obtuse. If Crosby did the exact same thing as Wilson we'd be calling for his suspension (there is certainly no love lost for Crosby on SoSH).

But those two videos are very, very clearly not the same thing.
 

Myt1

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So what would you do about Sidney Crosby slamming Konecny's head to the ice last night? Seemed hors de combat too.
You misspelled “Why are you guys always so mean tonpoor Tom Wilson, who gets such a bum wrap?!?”

I’m dead serious when I ask this: did the “CROSBY DID SOMETHING THAT’S NOT LIKE WHAT WILSON DID BUT WE CAN SAY IT IS BECAUSE BOTH PLAYERS WENT DOWN!” signal go out to all of the Wilson apologists, because I’m seeing this terrible argument everywhere. Is it like the Bat-Signal, or did you guys all have to sign up for SMS updates to the talking points?
 

Bread of Yaz

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Seriously, anyone who can watch both those videos and think they are even close to the same thing is being willfully obtuse. If Crosby did the exact same thing as Wilson we'd be calling for his suspension (there is certainly no love lost for Crosby on SoSH).

But those two videos are very, very clearly not the same thing.
The posted video of Crosby doesn't show the entire play, as he pushed the opponent's head down to the ice first

Oh, and Gostisbehere deliberately checked Friedman from behind with his stick and caused him to crash head first into the boards. Not injured, could have been paralyzed.

But Tom Wilson is a horrible guy.
 

Myt1

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The posted video of Crosby doesn't show the entire play, as he pushed the opponent's head down to the ice first

Oh, and Gostisbehere deliberately checked Friedman from behind with his stick and caused him to crash head first into the boards. Not injured, could have been paralyzed.

But Tom Wilson is a horrible guy.
Poor Tom Wilson. The only people who have it harder are Tom Wilson fans.
 

Dummy Hoy

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The posted video of Crosby doesn't show the entire play, as he pushed the opponent's head down to the ice first

Oh, and Gostisbehere deliberately checked Friedman from behind with his stick and caused him to crash head first into the boards. Not injured, could have been paralyzed.

But Tom Wilson is a horrible guy.
Correct.
 

Bread of Yaz

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Poor Tom Wilson. The only people who have it harder are Tom Wilson fans.
Actually, not a fan. I said above he's a goon and the play was dirty. But its a dirty sport, that revels in its dirtiness, and has always glorified it to maintain interest. What I object to is people saying this incident was so egregiously different, that Wilson should suffer a career ending injury, etc.
 

LogansDad

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The posted video of Crosby doesn't show the entire play, as he pushed the opponent's head down to the ice first

Oh, and Gostisbehere deliberately checked Friedman from behind with his stick and caused him to crash head first into the boards. Not injured, could have been paralyzed.

But Tom Wilson is a horrible guy.
Find the rest of the video and post it then. The tail end of that video shows the part of the play where they went from along the board to Crosby pushing him down to the ice, and it is nowhere near what Tom Wilson did. If you have more proof, you're going to need to show your work.
 

cshea

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Here's the root of the problem. From Friedman's 31 Thoughts posted yesterday:

When Wilson hit Brandon Carlo, there was enormous internal debate before his seven-game suspension. The league interpreted its rules in an almost unprecedented manner and not everyone liked it, but the decision was made. It’s proof there is room for manoeuvring, if necessary.
There are those in the league (Parros allegedly being one) that thought Wilson's hit on Carlo earlier this season was clean. They aren't going to advance player safety until those people (going to go out on a limb and say Colin Campbell is one) are removed from the league's hierarchy. There are still those who believe the way the game was played in the 70's and 80's is the way it should still be played no matter what. They need to get rid of the old school hockey men in positions of power.
 

RetractableRoof

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So what would you do about Sidney Crosby slamming Konecny's head to the ice last night? Seemed hors de combat too.
If solving this problem of players trying to intentionally injure other players involves long suspensions for Crosby, Marchand, Wilson or anyone else - sign me up. I'd rather see Panarin, Marc Savard on the ice than the players causing the injuries.

That said, Crosby was being immobilized with his arm locked in by the other player, the ref is staring right at it - no escalation happens there if a penalty is called (as it should be). Crosby is faced with the choice of being held out of the play or trying to wrestle/force his way out - there is live hockey occurring that he's trying to return to. If Konecny simply lets go of Crosby's arm, the conflict ends and they both resume actual hockey. Panarin/Wilson was long beyond any actual hockey play, and Wilson had already removed Panarin from on his back and taken complete control of the situation. At the moment that he pulled his hair and had his head back and his weight arched backwards - Panarin was essentially defenseless. Konecny was in no way defenseless. If you can't see that distinction, that's fine - but mocking others for "clutching at pearls" and bring up a situation which is no where analogous as an example of folks just disliking Wilson is lame. Why bother?
 

tmracht

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If solving this problem of players trying to intentionally injure other players involves long suspensions for Crosby, Marchand, Wilson or anyone else - sign me up. I'd rather see Panarin, Marc Savard on the ice than the players causing the injuries.

That said, Crosby was being immobilized with his arm locked in by the other player, the ref is staring right at it - no escalation happens there if a penalty is called (as it should be). Crosby is faced with the choice of being held out of the play or trying to wrestle/force his way out - there is live hockey occurring that he's trying to return to. If Konecny simply lets go of Crosby's arm, the conflict ends and they both resume actual hockey. Panarin/Wilson was long beyond any actual hockey play, and Wilson had already removed Panarin from on his back and taken complete control of the situation. At the moment that he pulled his hair and had his head back and his weight arched backwards - Panarin was essentially defenseless. Konecny was in no way defenseless. If you can't see that distinction, that's fine - but mocking others for "clutching at pearls" and bring up a situation which is no where analogous as an example of folks just disliking Wilson is lame. Why bother?
Yep, whataboutism is so tough to defend against, yes Shayne Gostisbehere made a dirty play last night. Yes Gost should get a call from DoPS, yes he should get some kind of discipline. It doesn't detract from the fact that what Tom Wilson did should be not be in the game and that he should get a steeper penalty than Gost since he is by there definition a repeat offender if he was given discipline.

Sign me up for your bolded.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Shanahan was a dolt, at least as far as being the DoPS. But Parros was a scrubby goon. Guy basically spent half his time in the box. While that doesnt make him inept as a DoPS, it's become clear that he views his former playstyle as an appropriate one.

Who the fuck hired this guy, again?
 

pedro1918

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I’m dead serious when I ask this: did the “CROSBY DID SOMETHING THAT’S NOT LIKE WHAT WILSON DID BUT WE CAN SAY IT IS BECAUSE BOTH PLAYERS WENT DOWN!” signal go out to all of the Wilson apologists, because I’m seeing this terrible argument everywhere. Is it like the Bat-Signal, or did you guys all have to sign up for SMS updates to the talking points?
This organization retired Dale Hunter's number. The fan base has a long history of defending the indefensible.
 

mwonow

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Shanahan was a dolt, at least as far as being the DoPS. But Parros was a scrubby goon. Guy basically spent half his time in the box. While that doesnt make him inept as a DoPS, it's become clear that he views his former playstyle as an appropriate one.

Who the fuck hired this guy, again?
And what was the interview process like? I'm imaging a small group sitting around a video screen showing boderline/beyond incidents, and Parros repeating, 'note, nothing there,' 'nope, nothing there' over and over.
 

Ferm Sheller

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And what was the interview process like? I'm imaging a small group sitting around a video screen showing boderline/beyond incidents, and Parros repeating, 'note, nothing there,' 'nope, nothing there' over and over.
Only he and the Hanson brothers showed up on interview day, and Parros got the job when the Hansons began arguing over an electric racetrack.
 

cshea

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Parros wasn't dirty. He was a a JAG. Just a goon.

You can't have goons leading the Department of Player Safety though. Goons have a code. The code is unwritten rules. Bringing unwritten rules into the supplemental discipline process is bad. Basically, the Wilson ruling is that anything goes in a scrum and if a line gets crossed, a fight is how you settle the score.
 

Myt1

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Parros wasn't dirty. He was a a JAG. Just a goon.

You can't have goons leading the Department of Player Safety though. Goons have a code. The code is unwritten rules. Bringing unwritten rules into the supplemental discipline process is bad. Basically, the Wilson ruling is that anything goes in a scrum and if a line gets crossed, a fight is how you settle the score.
But it’s not. Because when Wilson gets grabbed by a real fighter, he turtles and the refs tackle the guy.

View: https://twitter.com/IslesWhiteSUV/status/974803543013064705?s=20
 

Myt1

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Actually, not a fan. I said above he's a goon and the play was dirty. But its a dirty sport, that revels in its dirtiness, and has always glorified it to maintain interest. What I object to is people saying this incident was so egregiously different, that Wilson should suffer a career ending injury, etc.
Yeah, the was clear by how you grabbed the Crosby incident and took a table saw and three knives to it in an attempt whittle it into a square turd before trying to shoehorn it into a round hole.
 

joe dokes

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Yeah, the was clear by how you grabbed the Crosby incident and took a table saw and three knives to it in an attempt whittle it into a square turd before trying to shoehorn it into a round hole.
Somebody needs more fiber in their diet.
 

RedOctober3829

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Actually, not a fan. I said above he's a goon and the play was dirty. But its a dirty sport, that revels in its dirtiness, and has always glorified it to maintain interest. What I object to is people saying this incident was so egregiously different, that Wilson should suffer a career ending injury, etc.
The bolded is the issue. The Wilson situation has no place in hockey. Sub in any other player for Wilson and there should still be the same outrage. There is a ton of vitriol towards Wilson because of his past and the assumption that this just wasn't some incident where he temporarily lost his cool and is out of character for him. Wilson should have no place in this game.
 

burstnbloom

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If there was no NHL, Tom Wilson would definitely be in jail. The whataboutism in this thread is crazy. There are maybe 3 or 4 players in the modern history of this league who is even close to the level of predator this guy is on the ice. Off the top of my head I can think of dirty hits that hurt Brian Campbell, Nikita Zadorov, Panarin, Sundquist, Carlo, Aston-Reese, Marchessault, Wennberg and Conor Sheary (I think?). There are dozens of others I'm sure. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt here and his actions in the penalty box just show that he is not contrite about the way he plays, its by design.

I applaud the Rangers for their statement. They are 100% right. The DOPS has been a joke since its inception because the league doesn't actually care about this, they care about the PR disaster that is guys laying on the ice and they know they need to do something. They consistently do the least amount possible though. Tonight's game is must watch but the Rangers don't have the personnel to take care of this since they league won't
 

RIFan

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The posted video of Crosby doesn't show the entire play, as he pushed the opponent's head down to the ice first

Oh, and Gostisbehere deliberately checked Friedman from behind with his stick and caused him to crash head first into the boards. Not injured, could have been paralyzed.

But Tom Wilson is a horrible guy.
First, stop with the whataboutism. Whether something vaguely similar or not happened with someone else does not excuse what Wilson did and how that incident should be viewed by the league.
Secondly, you are even more wrong about the Gostisbehere hit than the Crosby hit. Friedman hit skates first into the board, not head first. You're either lying to make a point or blind. For the record, what Gostisbehere did was so bush league and inherently dangerous I'd be absolutely OK with supplemental discipline.
View: https://twitter.com/NHLSafetyWatch/status/1389758019668488193?s=20
 

Bread of Yaz

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First, stop with the whataboutism. Whether something vaguely similar or not happened with someone else does not excuse what Wilson did and how that incident should be viewed by the league.
Secondly, you are even more wrong about the Gostisbehere hit than the Crosby hit. Friedman hit skates first into the board, not head first. You're either lying to make a point or blind. For the record, what Gostisbehere did was so bush league and inherently dangerous I'd be absolutely OK with supplemental discipline.
View: https://twitter.com/NHLSafetyWatch/status/1389758019668488193?s=20
1. I did not offer the Crosby and Gotsibehere dirty plays to justify what Wilson did - again, its not justified. My point is that the hand wringing over Wilson's hit seems ludicrous to me when similar things happen almost every night in this league. Its a league that encourage violence and so fans shouldn't be shocked and appalled when gambling breaks out in Casablanca.

2. I did incorrectly indicate that Friedman hit the boards head first - sorry about the misstatement and thanks for the correction. But that cheap, dirty & dangerous hit had at least as much potential for a serious injury as Wilson's.