This is about where I am. The categories in the poll don’t capture what I care about: proof of violence or other serious crimes. With that, get rid of the player. Allegations, even if they seen to be true on their face, and appear to be consistent with preconceived notions about a player, are not enough for me.None of the above. Persuasive evidence of violent crimes or of repeated non-violent crimes involving moral turpitude (theft, for example) would make me want a player off the team whether there was a conviction or not.
This is fair. I knew I would miss a category.This is about where I am. The categories in the poll don’t capture what I care about: proof of violence or other serious crimes. With that, get rid of the player. Allegations, even if they seen to be true on their face, and appear to be consistent with preconceived notions about a player, are not enough for me.
To me, this has nothing to do with morality. It’s just a matter of the evidence. If it exists and is compelling, then off with his head. If not, or we are waiting for it to be developed, then he plays.
What if he fumbles?Ask me after he catches another TD pass. He's obviously somewhere on the continuum between shitbag and criminal. But I wont know how I feel about him viz my favorite football team until I have a visceral reaction to something he does on the field. I suspect it will be a near-joyless moment, but I can't be sure. I'm not sure I could put a precise finger on why, consistent with any of the above categories.
That’s not how it works. We punish people based on guilt, not on a sliding scale of how serious charges are.A conviction for violent crimes and you're gone....serious charges warrant possible suspension...
Unless we suspended them for a few days as a warning before banning themThat’s not how it works. We punish people based on guilt, not on a sliding scale of how serious charges are.
Devils advocate. Incontrovertible video evidence of a severe violent or sexual crime surfaces. Statute of limitation has expired so charges cannot be filed.A conviction for violent crimes and you're gone....serious charges warrant possible suspension...
Let's say that it turns out that the drummer in your favorite band was a complete and utter a-hole who harassed people, and maybe did some illegal stuff. But you LOVE their music. And the drummer is still with the band and someone offers you great tickets to see them come to town to do a show. At what point would anyone here say, "You know what, I can't go to the show, I can't even listen to their music, and in fact, I don't even like this band anymore, because of the drummer"? Maybe some of us here would do that, I don't know. I tend to think that most of us wouldn't do that with our favorite band. So why would we do it with our favorite football (or baseball or whatever) team?
It just feels like sports are somehow different. I wonder why that is, because at the end of the day, it's just...entertainment. We don't KNOW these people, really. How many of us personally know members of the Patriots? Some of us probably do, I suspect. I know a D-lineman on the Jets personally (I asked him to not hurt Tom this Sunday). And I know about three other NFL players. Out of nearly two thousand NFL players, I know like 5. It's entertainment.
But we do get more personally vested in our sports fandom than we tend to do with music and such.
As a fan of Metallica, your hypothetical scenario is highly appropriate to me. And your overall point is a good one - it really is just entertainment. Probably jerks on every team. Of course, if there’s credible accusation or conviction for a violent crime, that’s a different story.Let's say that it turns out that the drummer in your favorite band was a complete and utter a-hole who harassed people, and maybe did some illegal stuff. But you LOVE their music. And the drummer is still with the band and someone offers you great tickets to see them come to town to do a show. At what point would anyone here say, "You know what, I can't go to the show, I can't even listen to their music, and in fact, I don't even like this band anymore, because of the drummer"? Maybe some of us here would do that, I don't know. I tend to think that most of us wouldn't do that with our favorite band. So why would we do it with our favorite football (or baseball or whatever) team?
It just feels like sports are somehow different. I wonder why that is, because at the end of the day, it's just...entertainment. We don't KNOW these people, really. How many of us personally know members of the Patriots? Some of us probably do, I suspect. I know a D-lineman on the Jets personally (I asked him to not hurt Tom this Sunday). And I know about three other NFL players. Out of nearly two thousand NFL players, I know like 5. It's entertainment.
But we do get more personally vested in our sports fandom than we tend to do with music and such.
I suspect there are a lot of people who I root for because they wear a Boston team's jersey that I wouldn't want to be in the company of for very long. I've stopped caring. Sports is escapism for me, and while I have no problem cutting bait on anyone who has legit harmed someone else (e.g. the assault allegations against Brown being found to be true), I still root for them for as long as they're playing. I harbor no illusions about the flawless moral character of any pro athlete any more than I do my mechanic. I feel like this is doubly true for the Pats these days--after six rings and league dominance for the better part of two decades, amping up others' hatred is one of the few things that keeps me engrossed in the NFL.I don't think that I like Antonio Brown as a person and I find it difficult to root for him during games.
We cut Aaron Hernandez right after he was charged and arrested.That’s not how it works. We punish people based on guilt, not on a sliding scale of how serious charges are.
Oh, I agree with all that. What I meant was, we don’t punish people for being “sorta guilty.” It’s like being sorta pregnant.We cut Aaron Hernandez right after he was charged and arrested.
A DA filing criminal charges mean that an indepedent, professional 3rd party has decided the charges are serious and credible enough to warrant expenditure of the state's resources in pursuing a conviction. That's not the same thing as guilt, but it's a pretty strong statement that you are, or are about to be, a PR liability to your employer. Unless the charges relate to your actions in a professional capacity, I'd expect your employer to terminate you once you're formally accused of rape or assault or whatever by the state, not wait around for a conviction.
There's certainly a sliding scale of how serious the charges are when it comes to that, as well. Shoplifting and assault-and-battery are not going to be treated the same by anyone. Yes, the legal system will run its course to reach a verdict, but I don't see why an employer must or should wait that long, nor fail to consider the seriousness of the charges (or the evidence presented in the complaint), when deciding whether you should remain in their employ.
I'd like to enter a Rolo plea.That said, that’s often how settlements and plea bargaining work, eh?
Sorry about bringing the exempt list back into a non-exempt list situation but your post raises an important question about how the NFL seems to view the exempt list (as opposed to suspension).That’s not how it works. We punish people based on guilt, not on a sliding scale of how serious charges are.
Nope....excellent point...Devils advocate. Incontrovertible video evidence of a severe violent or sexual crime surfaces. Statute of limitation has expired so charges cannot be filed.
He still plays?
Well let’s say the drummer for Metallica was found to be credibly accused of sexual assault, but while that was getting sorted out, they kept making music. Would you stop listening? Would you not buy their new songs? (I don’t know if this has actually happened with Metallica)As a fan of Metallica, your hypothetical scenario is highly appropriate to me. And your overall point is a good one - it really is just entertainment. Probably jerks on every team. Of course, if there’s credible accusation or conviction for a violent crime, that’s a different story.
A lot of people turned on Metallica when Lars testified against Napster.Well let’s say the drummer for Metallica was found to be credibly accused of sexual assault, but while that was getting sorted out, they kept making music. Would you stop listening? Would you not buy their new songs? (I don’t know if this has actually happened with Metallica)
Did not know that. Interesting.A lot of people turned on Metallica when Lars testified against Napster.
Wait? A serial killer? Who are we talking about?It turned out that one of my favorite players was literally a serial killer, so... I'm kinda through the looking glass on this one.
Aaron Hernandez.Wait? A serial killer? Who are we talking about?
I know Hernandez was a serial killer, I just couldn't believe he was a favorite player.Aaron Hernandez.