Time-killing Challenge: HOF Peak Team v. the Bright Shiners Peak-ish Team

[Rovin Romine]

Pete Rose? I know he's out of the Hall for "technical" reasons just like the steroids guys, and I think I saw earlier that Shoeless Joe was off the list, so perhaps Rose is just as easily disqualified.

Yeah, off the list. We want guys who are actually in the hall v. non-HOF-caliber guys who had a sustained period of non-fluke excellence.

Current players, guys under consideration for the hall, plus Rose, Shoeless Joe, Bond, Clemens, et. al. aren't in the spirit of this endeavor. There are other threads to debate them on.

 

[Rovin Romine]

The phrase “in MLB” is key, because Josh Gibson is hands-down the best catcher ever. I’ll nominate his 1936 season, but you could make a case for 2 or 3 others.

389/478/783
18 HR. 66 RBI in 50 games

He's in the Hall, so he's in the discussion.

 

[Rovin Romine]

The rules don't prohibit this but it is not logical to have Babe Ruth in two different places in the same time. If you accept that a player can only be on this list once, then something interesting happens. The best season by a HOF LF not named Baby Ruth is 1967 Carl Yastrzemski with a 12.4 WAR, only 0.5 behind Ruth's 1921 season. The best seasons for a HOF RF not named Babe Ruth is Larry Walker at 9.8 WAR, 3.4 behind Ruth.

So should we leave Ruth in right and have Captain Carl in left?

PS - the best season of any RF not named Ruth is 2018 Mookie Betts, but that doesn't qualify under these rules.

Well, let's prohibit it now. Interesting puzzle with what to select.

 

[Rovin Romine]

UPDATED

HOF: the best actual season, at the actual position.

Bright Shiners: the second best season of a player, at the actual position. WAR/OPS+/ERA+ all useful for comparisons of nominees. No active or recently retired players: PED passes will form an alternate squad of second-best seasons.

I have tried to sort in rough bWAR order, but that only goes so far. For example, we might not choose to weigh Snuffy Stirnweiss' 1944, campaign - pre-integration and missing players due to the war, on the same footing as other candidates.



HOF

SP: Pedro Martinez, 2000: 18-6 1.74 ERA 217 IP 248 K 32 BB 128 H .737 WHIP 291 ERA+
SP: Bob Gibson, 1968: 22-9 1.12 ERA 304.2 IP 268 K 62 BB 198 H .853 WHIP 258 ERA+
SP: Walter Johnson, 1913: 36-7, 1.14 era, 346 IP, 29 CG, 11 SHO, 243 K, 38 BB, .780 WHIP, 259 era+
SP: Randy Johnson, 2001: 21-6, 2.49 ERA, 372 Ks, 188 ERA+, 213 FIP, 1.009 WHIP, 13.4 K/9 .WAR of 10.1
SP: Steve Carlton 1972: 346.1 IP, 1.97 ERA, 188 ERA+, 2.01 FIP, 310 Ks, .993 WHIP, 12.1 bWAR.
SP: Greg Maddux 1995: 209.2 IP, 1.63 ERA, 260 ERA+, 2.26 FIP, 0.811 WHIP, 181 Ks vs. only 23 BBs, 9.7 bWAR (would have been higher but Maddux lost 3-4 starts due to the strike-shortened season).
SP: Sandy Koufax, 1966: 323 IP, 317 K, 1.73 ERA (190 ERA+), 0.985 WHIP, 10.3 bWAR, CY (plus 27(!) CG)
SP: Grover Cleveland/Pete Alexander, 1915: 31-10, 1.22 ERA, 36 CGs, 12 Shutouts, 376 innings, 241 Ks, FIP of 1.82, WHIP of 0.842, ERA+ of 225, bWAR of 10.9.

RP: Lee Smith, 1983, 4.8
RP: Mariano Rivera, 1996, 5.0
RP: Bruce Sutter, 1977, 6.5
CL: Rich Gossage, 1975, 8.2

C: Mike Piazza, 1997: 362/431/638, 40 HR, 124 RBI, 8.7 WAR
C: Johnny Bench, 1972: 8.6 with defense.
C: Josh Gibson, 1936: 389/478/78318 HR. 66 RBI in 50 games

1B: Lou Gehrig, 1927, 11.9
2B: Rogers Hornsby, 1924, 12.3
3B: Mike Schmidt 1974/Ron Santo 1967, 9.8
SS: Cal Ripken Jr. 1991/Honus Wagner 1908, 11.5
LF: Babe Ruth, 1921, 12.9
LF: Carl Yastrzemski, 1967: 326, 44 HR, 121 RBI, 12.4 WAR Triple Crown, Gold Glove, MVP
CF: Mickey Mantle 1957/Ty Cobb 1917, 11.3
RF: Babe Ruth, 1927, 12.6
OF: Hack Wilson, 1930: .356, .454, .723, 1.177. 56 HR, 191 RBI. 7.4 bWAR
DH: Edgar Martinez 1995/Frank Thomas 1991, 7.0
but we are still going with:
DH: David Ortiz, 2007 .332, .445, .621, 1.066. (341TB) 6.4 bWAR

Extra OF:
Extra IF:
"25th man":



BRIGHT SHINERS

SP: Wilbur Wood, 1972: 27-17, 2.51 ERA, 1.059 WHIP, 10.7 bWAR
SP: Curt Schilling, 2002: 23-7, 3.23 ERA, 316 K, 33 BB, 9.58 K/BB, 0.968 WHIP, 8.6 WAR
SP: Cliff Lee, 2011: 2.40 ERA, 160 ERA+, 238 Ks in 232.2 innings, 42 BB is kind of a lot for him, though. 7.1 fWAR, 8.5bWAR.
SP: Kevin Appier, 1992: 2.46 ERA, 164 ERA+, 2.98 FIP, 150 Ks, 8.0 bWAR
SP: Kevin Brown, 1996: 233 IP, 1.89 ERA, 215 ERA+, 2.88 FIP, 159Ks, 33B. 0.944 WHIP, 7.9 bWAR
SP: Louie Tiant, 1974: 33-13, 2.92 ERA, 133 ERA+, 1.166 WHIP, 7.7 bWAR.
SP: Vida Blue, 1976: 18-13 2.35 ERA, 166K, 63BB, 1.109 WHIP, 7.6 BBRef WAR (led the league with a 2.56 FIP)
SP: Frank Tanana, 1976: 19-10 2.43 ERA, 288 IP, 261K, 73BB, .998 WHIP, 7.5 BBRef WAR
SP: Tim Lincecum, 2009: 15-7, 2.48 ERA, 261K, 68BB, 1.047 WHIP, 7.4 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Denny McLain, 1968: 31-6, 1.96 ERA, 336 IP, 2.53 FIP, 0.905 WHIP, Cy Young, MVP, 7.4 bWAR (stats despite leading league in HR allowed - 31)
SP: Johan Santana, 2006: 19-6, 2.77 ERA, 245K, 47BB, .997 WHIP, 7.2 BRef WAR (2d best season by WAR)
SP: Brett Saberhagen, 1985: 20-6, ERA 2.87, K 158, BB 38, WHIP 1.015. 7.1 bWAR
SP: Ron Guidry, 1979: 18-8, 2.78 era, 201 k, 1.16 whip, 7.7 k/9, 6.5 bWAR

RP: Eric Gagne, 2002: 52 SV, 1.97 ERA, 180 FIP, 0.862 WHIP 2.9 WAR4th in Cy, 12th in MVP
RP: Dick "The Monster" Radatz, 1963: 162k to 51bb, only 9HRA 2.18 FIP, 11.02 K/9, 192 ERA+, (30+ inning scoreless streak)
RP: Keith Foulke, 2003: 3.5 bWAR, 43 saves (led league), 2.08 ERA, .888 WHIP, 9.1 K/9, 215 ERA+, top 7 CYA
RP: Joe Nathan, 2006: 3.3 bWAR, 36 saves, 1.58 ERA, .790 WHIP, 12.5 K/9, 284 ERA+, top 5 CYA
RP: Jonathan Papelbon, 2007: 3.1 bWAR, 37 saves, 1.85 ERA, .771 WHIP, 13.0 K/9, 257 ERA+
RP: Dan Quisenberry, 1985: 37 saves, 2.37 ERA, 4.2 WAR, only 55 Ks!

C: Bill Freehan, 1968: 145 OPS+, led league in HBP with 24. 25 HR, 84 RBI (good for the era, as noted by his MVP finish and OPS+, last year of high mound, "year of the pitcher") 2nd in MVP, Gold Glove.
C: Elston Howard, 1961: .348/.387/.549 with an OPS+ of 153.
C: Thurman Munson, 1975: 318/.366/.429/.795, 126 OPS+. 6.6 bWAR
C: Jorge Posada, 2000: .287/.417/.527, 139 OPS+, 28 HR, 5.4 bWAR

1B: John Olerud, 1998: .354/.447/.551/.998, 163 OPS+ stellar defense. 7.6 bWAR
1B: Jason Giambi, 2000: .333/.476/.647/1.123 43 HR, 137 RBI, 7.8 bWAR
1B: Mark McGwire, 1996: .312/.467/.730 , 196 OPS+, 52 HR (in 130 games!), 6.4 WAR
1B: Mo Vaughn, 1998: 337/.402/.591, 153 OPS+ 40 hrs, 115 rbi, 5.6 WAR

2B: Dustin Pedroia, 1998: .326/.376/.493, 123 OPS+, 17 hr, 83 rbi, 7.0 WAR
2B: Bobby Grich, 1975: .260/.389/.399/.787,130 OPS+, 7.4 bWAR
2B: Bobby Grich, 1979: .294/.365/.537/.903, 30 HR, 101 RBI, All-Star, 8th in MVP
2B: Snuffy Stirnweiss, 1944, 8.7 bWAR.

3B: Dick Allen, 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+, 7.5 bWAR
3B: Eric Chavez, 2003: .282/.350/.514, 127 OPS+, 34 HR, 5.3 WAR (his 3rd best season by WAR!)

SS: Nomar Garciaparra, 1995: .357/.418/.603/1.022 27 HR 104 RBI, 7.5 WAR

OF: Roger Maris, 1960: 98 runs, 39 HRs, 112 RBIs (league leader), .283/.371/581, Gold Glove, MVP 7.5 bWAR (his highest by WAR)
OF: Fred Lynn, 1979: .331/.406/.566, .967 OPS, 162 OPS+, good CF defense, 7.4 bWAR, ROY+MVP
OF: César Cedeño, 1973, 7.4 bWAR
OF: Kenny Lofton, 1994: .349/.412/.536, 145 OPS+, 60 SB (83% success rate), 12 HR, 7.2 WAR
OF: Dave Parker, 1978: 102 runs, 30 HRs, 117 RBIs, .334/.394/.585, Gold Glove, MVP 7.0 WAR
OF: Albert Belle, 1995: 121 runs, 50 HR, 126 RB, .317/.401/.690, Douchenozzle Extraordinare, 7.0 bWAR
OF Jim Edmonds, 2000: .295/.411/.583, 147 OPS+, 42 HR, 6.2 WAR
OF: Dale Murphy, 1982: 113 runs, 36 HRs, 109 RBIs (league leader), .281/.378/.507, Gold Glove, MVP 6.1 bWar (4th best season)
OF: Juan Gonzalez, 1996: 89 runs, 47 HRs, 144 RBIs, .314/.368/.643, MVP 3.8 bWAR (5th best season)

DH: Travis "Pronk" Hafner, 2005: .305/.408/.595/1.003 168 OPS+ 5.4 WAR (5th MVP voting)

Extra: OF
Extra: IF
"25th man":



The Alternate Squad, strongly hinted not to dwell on:
Shithead: Barry Bonds, 2002: 11.7 of HgH.
Gamethrower: Shoeless Joe Jackson, 1911: 9.2 of paid-off dollars and cents.
Speedcheeter: Pete Rose, 1968: .335/.391/.470/.861 152 OPS+, 5.7 bets placed.

 

[Kliq]

For Hall of Fame I'd nominate 1915 Grover Cleveland/Pete Alexander. You could do a few seasons, like his 1920 season (WAR of 11.9) but I'll go with his 1915 season for better across-the-board numbers.

31-10, 1.22 ERA, 36 CGs, 12 Shutouts, 376 innings, 241 Ks, FIP of 1.82, WHIP of 0.842, ERA+ of 225, bWAR of 10.9.

 

[Marbleheader]

For LF I'm going to nominate Yaz's 1967. His WAR was .5 behind Ruth's 1921, but I'd argue it's more impressive that he did it in an era that was more competitive and integrated, and he provided Gold Glove defense and won the Triple Crown and MVP.

LF: Carl Yastrzemski, 1967: 326, 44 HR, 121 RBI, 12.4 WAR Triple Crown, Gold Glove, MVP

 

[Rovin Romine]

Well, it's Friday.

Should we start narrowing the field down, keep on searching, or a little bit of both?

If we narrow, I was thinking:

- 8 starting fielders​

- 5 man rotation​

- 3 man bullpen, plus 1 closer​

- 1 backup OF​

- 1 backup IF​

- 1 "25th man"​

Your thoughts?

No matter what we do, I will remind everyone that WAR is not a magic all-determining number. If you have a case for a player, make it.

I have removed the strike-throughs (they served their purpose by not encouraging a slew of not-quite good enough outfielders and starters). It's a game of inches and close calls, after all.

 

[Rovin Romine]

PS - if anyone wants to correct b v f WAR numbers, please be my guest.

PPS - if I have not added a suggestion, bring it to my attention. . .but first make sure it's not an active player, or someone who will be considered for the HOF by the writers in from this point forward.

 

[danajf]

A solid candidate for your backup third baseman....Doug DeCinces' 1978 season.

.872 OPS, 149 OPS+, a WAR of 6.8, slash line of 286/346/526

DeCinces' best WAR season was 1982 (7.6). He was 3rd in MVP in 1982, but interestingly enough was not anywhere near the top running for MVP in 1978.