This year's ESPN hit piece

[Nator]

The atmosphere was likely one of resignation at the time they traded Jimmy G. They really wanted to keep him, but realized that they had played this out for as long as they could have given the situation. They reluctantly took action to at least get something back for him. So, of course there was disappointment in the building.

I heard Tom E. Curran mention on some weekend broadcast (not sure which one, apologies for no link), where he said that if Bill was intending to trade Brady at the deadline instead of Jimmy, Kraft possibly would have stepped in to veto a trade in the scenario.

So, to extrapolate.

I can see how if Seth was asking the executive towel manager and the assistant to the assistant end-zone paint associate at Denny's at 5:30 AM, he could certainly build a bridge from, "Seth, I've heard rumors that Kraft might have vetoed a Brady trade" to "He demanded that Jimmy be traded because he wanted to keep Brady." if he was intent on working that angle.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Right, I don't want to rehash that. I've seen it where they cut Cooks, Solder, let Butler and Lewis and Burkhead walk, etc. There's no way that was "the plan". Let's not go down that road.

And then after all is said and through and you’ve made cuts and not signed players, Jimmy G in 2019 is...a free agent. At that point, he has insane leverage and isn’t signing a long term deal unless there’s like 80 million guaranteed. And he’s played six quarters.

The Pats are going to have about 40 million after obvious cuts, but they’ll have plenty of needs (2 RB, TE2, corner, Left Tackle, WR, etc.). So would you rather have Tom Brady/2nd round pick/Jimmy Graham/Nate Solder/Dion Lewis or Tom Brady/Jimmy G? It’s an insane difference. There’s probably still money left over to sign another player or two on top of that list, too.

 

[nighthob]

Really? Belichick and Cesario just went and "screwed it up" huh?

There were a couple of options, trade him before the 2017 draft for slightly more than they got, at which point they’d be working without a net with a 40 year old QB. Or wait to see if their 40 year old QB was still playing at a high level. They took the latter route.

After that their options were a lot more limited, trading Brady wasn’t one due to the dead cap space. They really couldn’t franchise Jimmy G after the season without cutting a bunch of guys. So after not trading Garoppolo last April they got what they could for him now, because the roster damage they’d need to do come March just wasn’t an option.

If they knew then that Brady could play another year at MVP level, they probably would have traded Garoppolo to Cleveland. But once they held on to him for this year this was always the likely result.

 

[E5 Yaz]

PTI today:

TK: The Patriots have denied the accounts in the story, Kraft denied it to Peter King, does this story even matter

MW: I'm already tired of this story. Time to move on.

Now, mind you, this was on the same show where they blasted ESPN for giving LaVar Ball too much attention and saying that his comments don't rise to the level of being newsworthy ... so maybe they either didn't get, or just ignored, the memo

 

[dcmissle]

No problem --- unless he already found the successor.....and invested 4 seasons to plan and prepare for a duration that was post-TB.

A duration that was going to show everyone that they could (still) win without Brady.

Fair enough, though I think BB’s motives were probably more altruistic, at least in part: leaving the team, when he leaves, in excellent shape. That also is a legacy issue.

But time will tell, right? I mean if he that pissed, or otherwise does not see eye to eye with Kraft, he can leave in a month or so. Can’t force anyone to fulfill a personal services contract.

But my point is that’s what B.B. would do, rather than feed a crappy article to a reporter who nonetheless seems to have gotten a few things wrong. Going for another SB, he is just not going to draw controversy to the team, particularly with a low rent outfit like ESPN, which he surely hates.

 

[Kliq]

PTI today:

TK: The Patriots have denied the accounts in the story, Kraft denied it to Peter King, does this story even matter

MW: I'm already tired of this story. Time to move on.

Now, mind you, this was on the same show where they blasted ESPN for giving LaVar Ball too much attention and saying that his comments don't rise to the level of being newsworthy ... so maybe they either didn't get, or just ignored, the memo

PTI being located in DC has long given them a sort of topical autonomy and both guys are so established in sports media that they don’t have to worry or care about what the network agenda is supposed to be; and there show is still awesome because of it.

 

[TheoShmeo]

There were a couple of options, trade him before the 2017 draft for slightly more than they got, at which point they’d be working without a net with a 40 year old QB. Or wait to see if their 40 year old QB was still playing at a high level. They took the latter route.

After that their options were a lot more limited, trading Brady wasn’t one due to the dead cap space. They really couldn’t franchise Jimmy G after the season without cutting a bunch of guys. So after not trading Garoppolo last April they got what they could for him now, because the roster damage they’d need to do come March just wasn’t an option.

If they knew then that Brady could play another year at MVP level, they probably would have traded Garoppolo to Cleveland. But once they held on to him for this year this was always the likely result.

Given that Bill did not trade Jimmy to Cleveland during the season, when they seemingly would have paid more than the Niners did, I'm not sure why they ever would have traded him to Cleveland prior to the season. That is, unless Cleveland did something between the off season and when the trade happened that changed things in some way.

To me, that Bill did not get maximum value for Jimmy is the ONE THING in this whole saga that gives me pause. It feels a little like a "F you" move on his part. I don't actually believe that it was. But it remains really curious to me because the only explanations that make sense to me are (a) that he felt pressured to get rid of Jimmy so said "screw it, I'll move him but I'm not going to get the Pats max value"; (b) Bill put his feelings for Jimmy ahead of his obligation to the team to maximize the Pats' return; (c) Bill misunderstood the market and thought no one would pay more than the Niners; and (d) Jimmy's situation was becoming a potential distraction and Bill just wanted to move him quickly, so he didn't futz around with a competitive process. I'm sure there are other possibilities. But I can't think of any that are much different than those. And my problem is that NONE of those explanations makes sense to me and NONE are consistent with what I know of BB. If I had to guess, the answer is that Bill put Jimmy over the Pats, which is really unlike him, and really weird. In legal parlance, that would arguably be a breach of fiduciary duty.

That germ of confusion is where Wickersham gets any juice at all.

 

[tims4wins]

I don’t think D is inconsistent with BB. The problem with a bidding war is that it creates a lot of parties with knowledge of the situation, things get leaked, and then things get messy. Seems to me - in all their trades - the Pats target a team and execute a deal in stealth. It is similar with draft picks sometimes too - they don’t care about outside opinion of value. I don’t think that is inconsistent at all with BB.

I could also buy that B was a partial factor. And we have also read that the Pats did not want to deal with Cleveland again after the Collins trade. It wasn’t smooth.

 

[Stitch01]

When we talk about these superior offers, are we talking about the #12 pick from the Browns that never actually happened last offseason or the hypothetical Browns offer which was only revealed after JG looked awesome and which would have hypothetically been made while the Browns were already screwing up an agreed upon QB trade at the deadline? Hard to keep up.

What other garbage?

You don't think it's possible that TB didn't want Jimmy G to be treated by Guerrero?

You don't think TB felt threatened by Jimmy G (just as Bledsoe felt that same toward TB 15 years ago)?

You don't think it's possible that Brady went over BB's head to Kraft to analyze his status / try to control any part of the situation that he could?

Come on --- this is Organizational Behavior 101.

I suggest trying to associate with less dysfunctional/more successful organizations.

This whole thing is two kernels of truth about two somewhat complicated Brady related situations being blown way out of proportion into the hottest of takes. Im sure the Guerrero situation caused some tension and Im sure trying to manage the QB succession wasn't an easy decision. I dont think the principles involved are blowing up a highly successful partnership where all three parties have a limited remaining shelf life and need each other to succeed.

 

[Bowhemian]

Of course --- but if you don't think it's possible that BB would / could stick his middle-finger up to any individual on this earth, you haven't been paying attention the last 20 years.

IMO - he is the greatest coach in the history of American Professional Sports....but as a person, he's not exactly been stellar.

What do you know as BB as a person? What has he done as a person that makes him “not exactly stellar”?

 

[dcmissle]

Pats are all in, Curtis Emerson LeMay-ing ESPN.

“I have a good relationship with Alex Guerrero.”

LMFAO. Go get “em Bill.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/08/bill-belichick-i-have-a-good-relationship-with-alex-guerrero/

 

[snowmanny]

What do you know as BB as a person? What has he done as a person that makes him “not exactly stellar”?

Oh there was stuff, not enough for me to judge but others might:

http://archive.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/03/04/after_a_bruising_year_belichick_opens_up/

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone who has paid even the littlest bit of attention to the man over the course of his career in New England could think that Bill Belichick would do anything to undermine his team’s chances of winning in any particular season.

I don’t buy the theory that Kraft meddled and BB is pissed, but even if I did, the last way I would ever expect a guy like BB to handle that would be to find a reporter and get a story out there to prove a point.

 

[DJnVa]

Pats are all in, Curtis Emerson LeMay-ing ESPN.

“I have a good relationship with Alex Guerrero.”

LMFAO. Go get “em Bill.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/08/bill-belichick-i-have-a-good-relationship-with-alex-guerrero/

Troll level 100

 

[AB in DC]

This whole story reminds me of the old adage, "Those who say, don't know; those who know, don't say."

I'm sure Wickersham accurately presented the opinions and beliefs of some number of individuals in or around the Patriots. But it's little more than water cooler gossip.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Landon Collins on the prospect of playing for B.B. interesting last quote.

As for Belichick, the five-time Super Bowl-winning coach who said on Monday he “absolutely” plans to stay with the Patriots, Collins said Belichick is too similar to his college coach, Nick Saban, for his taste. He credited Saban’s rigid style with getting him to the NFL, but it’s not something he wants to live through again.


“The way he runs his organization, I’ve been through that process. I don’t like it,” Collins said. “It’s too strict. …. He’s a great winner, he’s a great coach. I don’t know if [his style] is what the organization really wants.

“I talked to guys who played for [his] team. They love winning, but at the same time, they don’t want to be on the team.”

https://nypost.com/2018/01/08/landon-collins-suddenly-vouching-for-teammate-eli-apple/

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Hightower has said playing for them is 'hell', not a real surprise.

 

[GlucoDoc]

This whole story reminds me of the old adage, "Those who say, don't know; those who know, don't say."

...and we all know that those who work for BB are very good at "not saying" with regularity and great skill!

 

[lambeau]

I'm a little surprised the lawyers here aren't more interested in Yee's conflict since Yee prides himself on being a lawyer, as are all his partners, and the NFLPA on paper forbids agents from having conflicts. Clearly the team couldn't trade TB and couldn't tag JG. But TB's cap hit this year is a team-friendly $14 M and he probably will sign an extension that will prevent next years hit from rising to the scheduled $22 M. What if the extension kept his cap hit at $15 M and JG got a bridge contract at $15 M/yr--the team total being Stafford money. TB might do it to get signed through age 44, but why would JG do it? What if you told him he could either inherit a SB winning team or if unhappy after 1 or 2 years he could pick the team to be traded to--which is what the 49ers allowed Montana to do. My point is that this might be difficult to finesse, and JG might refuse, but Yee has a conflict advising JG on this if he knows it's not in TB's interest to have JG around.

 

[DJnVa]

“I talked to guys who played for [his] team. They love winning, but at the same time, they don’t want to be on the team.”

Okay, Landon.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I'm a little surprised the lawyers here aren't more interested in Yee's conflict since Yee prides himself on being a lawyer, as are all his partners, and the NFLPA on paper forbids agents from having conflicts. Clearly the team couldn't trade TB and couldn't tag JG. But TB's cap hit this year is a team-friendly $14 M and he probably will sign an extension that will prevent next years hit from rising to the scheduled $22 M. What if the extension kept his cap hit at $15 M and JG got a bridge contract at $15 M/yr--the team total being Stafford money. TB might do it to get signed through age 44, but why would JG do it? What if you told him he could either inherit a SB winning team or if unhappy after 1 or 2 years he could pick the team to be traded to--which is what the 49ers allowed Montana to do. My point is that this might be difficult to finesse, and JG might refuse, but Yee has a conflict advising JG on this if he knows it's not in TB's interest to have JG around.

I don't think it's a conflict under the rules of professional conduct. (I don't know whether the NFL imposes greater obligations.). Perhaps, it's a "limited pot" situation, which usually isn't direct adversity. If it were, then an agent could never represent two players on the same team in a salary cap league. This is a bit more adverse, but just a question of degree. Same with representing two huge free agents in the same free agency market, etc.

In any case, concurrent client conflicts are usually waivable. My guess is that most agents ask their clients to waive these sorts of potential conflict, especially in a league where trades are common -- your client could get traded to another client's team tomorrow.

Bottom line is that Tom and Jimmy may very well have signed waivers.

 

[Van Everyman]

“I talked to guys who played for [his] team. They love winning, but at the same time, they don’t want to be on the team.”

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

First, Buck Showalter, just stop. Seriously man, good trolling and all, kudos, but enough. Go somewhere else.

Second, this is all a huge nothingburger. If anyone thinks this will impact the postseason they haven’t been paying attention. If anyone thinks this was ESPN targeting the Pats they’re paranoid. And if anyone seriously believes the ‘sources’ are anyone worth putting weight into, I have a bridge to sell you.

This is all click bait bullshit. If you didn’t learn that after deflate gate, I’m not sure what to tell you. This is what ESPN does. There’s about 2% of actual journalism here.

But keep telling yourself BB was the source, this is the end, BB is going to go coach the Giants and the band is breaking up. Yawn.

 

[TheoShmeo]

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone who has paid even the littlest bit of attention to the man over the course of his career in New England could think that Bill Belichick would do anything to undermine his team’s chances of winning in any particular season.

I don’t buy the theory that Kraft meddled and BB is pissed, but even if I did, the last way I would ever expect a guy like BB to handle that would be to find a reporter and get a story out there to prove a point.

This post may be in response to mine.

I agree with your premise in the first paragraph. My point above is that I can't piece together a narrative on why Bill traded Jimmy to the Niners for a second that makes sense to me. I offered several possibilities, including that he simply erred, and misunderstood the market. Maybe it's down to his affection for the player and resulting willingness to accept a lesser return than stick him in a dysfunctional situation. But that is odd. It's not what many of us would have expected, I daresay.

My main point is that without something that is hard to explain, Wickersham's piece would have had a lot less juice to start with.

I can make sense of every accusation or pieced together aspect of that story...except why Bill didn't get the greatest return possible when he traded Jimmy.

And to be clear, I have no issue whatsoever with the timing of the trade. That I can easily understand.

 

[Jimbodandy]

This post may be in response to mine.

I agree with your premise in the first paragraph. My point above is that I can't piece together a narrative on why Bill traded Jimmy to the Niners for a second that makes sense to me. I offered several possibilities, including that he simply erred, and misunderstood the market. Maybe it's down to his affection for the player and resulting willingness to accept a lesser return than stick him in a dysfunctional situation. But that is odd. It's not what many of us would have expected, I daresay.

My main point is that without something that is hard to explain, Wickersham's piece would have had a lot less juice to start with.

I can make sense of every accusation or pieced together aspect of that story...except why Bill didn't get the greatest return possible when he traded Jimmy.

And to be clear, I have no issue whatsoever with the timing of the trade. That I can easily understand.

TS, your narrative on taking less for Jimmy is based on what exactly? If it's based on fairly groundless reports from the last offseason that a king's ransom was on the table and disregarded, we have already discussed here that 1. we know none of that for sure, and 2. the situation was different midseason. If it's based on "why didn't he go full auction mode?", I contend that BFB knows the market well enough to not need to go through that process. Sure, there was probably a slightly better return if he did that, maybe 10-15 picks worth (who knows!), but him being a bit sentimental and wanting to set up JG for success is not exactly earth-shattering. And him spending a day of his life chasing a better return that might not even be there, perhaps he decided it wasn't the best use of his time. If you have ever sold off anything, sometimes you just say "fuck it", take the best one on the table and move on.

I definitely wouldn't take any of this "I offered the world and was shut down" bullshit from league FO sources as gospel.

 

[TheoShmeo]

TS, your narrative on taking less for Jimmy is based on what exactly? If it's based on fairly groundless reports from the last offseason that a king's ransom was on the table and disregarded, we have already discussed here that 1. we know none of that for sure, and 2. the situation was different midseason. If it's based on "why didn't he go full auction mode?", I contend that BFB knows the market well enough to not need to go through that process. Sure, there was probably a slightly better return if he did that, maybe 10-15 picks worth (who knows!), but him being a bit sentimental and wanting to set up JG for success is not exactly earth-shattering. And him spending a day of his life chasing a better return that might not even be there, perhaps he decided it wasn't the best use of his time. If you have ever sold off anything, sometimes you just say "fuck it", take the best one on the table and move on.

I definitely wouldn't take any of this "I offered the world and was shut down" bullshit from league FO sources as gospel.

Fair point that I don't know that BB could have gotten more for Jimmy. It seems logical to me, though, that he could have. There are reports that Cleveland would have paid more. One such report is linked below.

Now, that's very convenient to say after the fact, and it might be pure BS. And it also might be an effort to feed into the noise about the Pats.

Still, there are no reports or indications that I am aware of that Bill spoke to anyone other than the Niners and supposedly he came to them with the deal and they just had to say yes (as opposed to negotiate a counter), so the narrative around him saying "fuck it" and moving on after chasing a better deal seems difficult to me. Again, not that I actually know.

Let me be clear that I am not worried about the overall affects of this story as it pertains to the present -- hell, it might help foster the "us against the world" sentiment that this team seems to thrive on and has since the first SB run (recall the Pats players referencing how the Steelers had packed their bags for New Orleans before the game) -- and I think it's going to be hard for Bill to walk back from his comments this week.


http://www.weei.com/blogs/ryan-hannable/browns-reportedly-would-have-traded-patriots-top-10-pick-jimmy-garoppolo

 

[tims4wins]

TS, see my earlier response. I don't think the Patriots ever do anything in "auction mode". They operate in stealth. Auction mode is how things leak. Imagine if they ran an auction for JG, but it ended up falling through and he wasn't traded - but the whole league knew about it, including JG? That would NOT be a good situation. So he avoids it. He targets a buyer and makes a deal. Similar to Chandler Jones to Arizona.

 

[tims4wins]

Tom Brady was asked about the characterization that he was celebrating after Jimmy Garoppolo was traded. "I think that's just such a poor characterization of anything. In 18 years, I've never celebrated when someone has been traded, been cut. I would say that's disappointing to hear that someone would express that, or a writer would express that, because it's so far from what my beliefs are about my teammates," Brady said on sports radio WEEI's "Kirk and Callahan Show." "I think I'm very empathetic towards other people's experiences. I know those situations aren't easy. I've never been traded or released, but I can imagine how that might feel. I would never, ever feel that way about when Jimmy got traded, when Jacoby got traded. I've kept in touch with all those guys. When Matt Cassel was gone. All these guys I've worked with, I felt like I had such a great relationship with all the quarterbacks I've worked with. I kept in touch with basically everybody. So to characterize that as a certain way is just completely, completely wrong."

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

Okay, Landon.

Boomer and Gio being less than kind this AM. "Is this the kinda guy you want on your team????"

 

[TheoShmeo]

TS, see my earlier response. I don't think the Patriots ever do anything in "auction mode". They operate in stealth. Auction mode is how things leak. Imagine if they ran an auction for JG, but it ended up falling through and he wasn't traded - but the whole league knew about it, including JG? That would NOT be a good situation. So he avoids it. He targets a buyer and makes a deal. Similar to Chandler Jones to Arizona.

Hear you but there's a difference between full on carnival style auction mode and talking to only one or two buyers. We don't actually know that Bill only spoke to Arizona about the Jones deal and I think it's more reasonable to believe that Bill has a good sense of the market before he trades most players. Not knowing about alternatives in that situation would make him an extreme outlier.

Maybe he felt it was in the team's long term interests not to stick Jimmy with Cleveland, knowing that they very well might franchise him and put a huge hamper on his ability to be successful in the NFL.

 

[EvilEmpire]

I agree with those who think that Hoyer being available to assume backup duties for the Patriots was an important consideration for BB, one that made a 49ers deal preferable.

Given how quickly the deal came together, I'm guessing BB had that contingency already wargamed out and in his back pocket. Before the JB trade even.

 

[tims4wins]

Hear you but there's a difference between full on carnival style auction mode and talking to only one or two buyers. We don't actually know that Bill only spoke to Arizona about the Jones deal and I think it's more reasonable to believe that Bill has a good sense of the market before he trades most players. Not knowing about alternatives in that situation would make him an extreme outlier.

Maybe he felt it was in the team's long term interests not to stick Jimmy with Cleveland, knowing that they very well might franchise him and put a huge hamper on his ability to be successful in the NFL.

Well what about this. Maybe at the time of the draft, the best offer on the table was from SF. And then since nothing materially changed between the draft and October 31 - JG didn't play a snap (or maybe he had a couple kneeldowns, I can't remember), BB figured nothing would really change offer wise. And since SF had the best offer at the time of the draft, coupled with not liking dealing with Cleveland during the Collins trade, he just zeroed in on the Niners. I don't think that is implausible.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

This post may be in response to mine.

I agree with your premise in the first paragraph. My point above is that I can't piece together a narrative on why Bill traded Jimmy to the Niners for a second that makes sense to me. I offered several possibilities, including that he simply erred, and misunderstood the market. Maybe it's down to his affection for the player and resulting willingness to accept a lesser return than stick him in a dysfunctional situation. But that is odd. It's not what many of us would have expected, I daresay.

My main point is that without something that is hard to explain, Wickersham's piece would have had a lot less juice to start with.

I can make sense of every accusation or pieced together aspect of that story...except why Bill didn't get the greatest return possible when he traded Jimmy.

And to be clear, I have no issue whatsoever with the timing of the trade. That I can easily understand.

It was actually in response to Buck Showalter's Tony Mazz impression.

 

[Van Everyman]

One thing that seems to have gotten short shrift in all this is the trade of Brissett, which I think provides some clues as to how the team might've been thinking. Why, so many have asked, did Belichick trade not one but both backup QBs in a few months' time?

If nothing else, Belichick is known for fielding a competitive team every year -- not mortgaging the future for the present or sacrificing a competitive team for some unrealized future asset. Yet for the past few seasons, QB has occupied three roster spots. It made a certain amount of sense -- they were trying to time Brady's eventual slide with Jimmy's emergence. But this year that plan was falling apart. As we've discussed, Brady was playing at a near-peak level and Jimmy wanted playing time. But in addition, the team was dangerously thin at a number of areas: receiver, DL, LB and, after last year's trades and the league penalty for #DFG, draft capital. So they effectively trade both backups for a 2nd rounder, a WR/additional roster spot and a traditional backup.

I get why "roster management" isn't terribly sexy but the more I think about it, "doing whats best for the team" is as good a reason as any for all this. That's not to say Bill wasn't disappointed about having to pull the trigger on Jimmy--Kraft may have even had to nudge him to do it--and Dorsett hasn't exactly lit it up. But this year given all the injuries and the need to shore the team up for the next few years, these choices could be viewed as completely within Bill's MO.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Remember that Volin constantly speculated during the preseason that Brissett was going to get cut.

 

[troparra]

I agree with those who think that Hoyer being available to assume backup duties for the Patriots was an important consideration for BB, one that made a 49ers deal preferable.

Given how quickly the deal came together, I'm guessing BB had that contingency already wargamed out and in his back pocket. Before the JB trade even.

This. Brady is still 40. You need a backup. And since we're talking about the Browns, Hoyer is probably the best QB the Browns have had in the last 10 years.

 

[joe dokes]

Remember that Volin constantly speculated during the preseason that Brissett was going to get cut.

And that was due to his performance. Maybe BB just didn't think Brissett was all that good.

I get why "roster management" isn't terribly sexy but the more I think about it, "doing whats best for the team" is as good a reason as any for all this. That's not to say Bill wasn't disappointed about having to pull the trigger on Jimmy--Kraft may have even had to nudge him to do it--and Dorsett hasn't exactly lit it up. But this year given all the injuries and the need to shore the team up for the next few years, these choices could be viewed as completely within Bill's MO.

I keep coming back to this.

Others keep harping on the "failure " to get "maximum value" for JG, as though getting that value was somehow going to occur in an abstract vacuum, without consideration of any other factor related to the team. Some people might take a few thousand less when they sell their house because their wife and kids are miserable where they are, or there's a new job they have to get to today, or whatever. There's a million moving parts on a football team, to just isolate the JG transaction is lazy and sloppy.
Brady fucked it all up by playing at an MVP level in his age 40 season. So it goes.
JG might be good. He might be great. He might be Matt Cassel.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

.
JG might be good. He might be great. He might be Matt Cassel.

This is the crux for me. He led his team to wins this year, which is by far the most important thing, but a 7/5 TD/INT ratio doesn't scream Joe Montana just yet. He has poise and good decision making and looks promising, but as the old hockey guys like to say "there's many a slip between Cup and lip."

 

[BaseballJones]

Boomer and Gio being less than kind this AM. "Is this the kinda guy you want on your team????"

I know, right? What player in the NFL doesn't want to play for the greatest, most successful coach in the Super Bowl era, maybe of all time?

 

[BigJimEd]

Brady fucked it all up by playing at an MVP level in his age 40 season. So it goes.

I think we all understand there are tons of moving parts on a team. And building a team is complex. No one is talking about holding it for the last possible cent to the overall detriment of the team

I think the disconnect is Brady playing at a high level. I, for one, think the odds of him not playing at MVP caliber after last season to be very low. Others seem to think it was a decent possibility.
Health was another issue.

I personally don't think the odds of Brady dropping off a cliff or getting hurt in the first half of the season to be so high that you cut off talks for your backup QB before they even begun. Especially when there are heath questions about your backup QB. That didn't necessarily mean you do trade him though. Just listen

However, I do see how reasonable minds could see it differently.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

Fair point that I don't know that BB could have gotten more for Jimmy. It seems logical to me, though, that he could have. There are reports that Cleveland would have paid more. One such report is linked below.

Other than the fact that Cleveland had every incentive after the fact to inflate what they had been offering for JG to placate their fans (they still have at least a few, right?), which has already been discussed, is it possible that the Patriots put more value on the Brian Hoyer part of this deal than we might first initially think? In one of his interviews after this article came out Kraft said something along the lines of "the trade was basically a second-round pick and Hoyer for Jimmy but it ended up that Hoyer had to be cut and then signed by us," so I wonder if the Patriots didn't view the benefits of having Hoyer - someone who already has at least some familiarity with the system - as the backup rather than QB X they could sign off the street. I don't really think Hoyer is any better than a replacement QB but Belichick might have different thoughts on that, and that could be part of the reason why they would trade with SF and not other teams. It wouldn't be the difference between, say, a high first-round pick and what they got, but if the Pats thought Cleveland's best offer would likely be their own second-round pick or something, the knowledge they would get Hoyer back could make up that difference. Just a thought.

 

[Blue Monkey]

One thing that I do find interesting is that Kraft, Brady, and now Belichick have all come forward and spoken out about this story, trying to squash the rumors. In the past it always would have been, “we released our statement, we don’t have anything more to say at this time, and we’re just focused on the Titans.” Why the change? It would have been easy to just stay true and not go against the “Patriot Way” of silence. What are your guys thoughts on this?

 

[mikeot]

Somebody awhile back on another thread (I'm too busy/lazy to hunt it down) alluded to a "silent handshake deal" between BB and Jimmy that the Pats would get him back in three years as a condition of the SF deal. Any validity to this? Anyone?

 

[BigJimEd]

Somebody awhile back on another thread (I'm too busy/lazy to hunt it down) alluded to a "silent handshake deal" between BB and Jimmy that the Pats would get him back in three years as a condition of the SF deal. Any validity to this? Anyone?

Seriously? Do you really think there is even the slightest chance of this?

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

I think many of us acknowledge what a bunch of you are saying, but disagree that - even with the special circumstance of Hoyer knowing the system - getting a second round pick "and Hoyer," however that came about, and being on the phone for only ten minutes with what sounds like a pretty pleasantly surprised SF F.O., suggests a misreading of the market or a lack of getting the absolute best possible return for a prime asset.

 

[DJnVa]

Somebody awhile back on another thread (I'm too busy/lazy to hunt it down) alluded to a "silent handshake deal" between BB and Jimmy that the Pats would get him back in three years as a condition of the SF deal. Any validity to this? Anyone?

Dude. Come on.

 

[DJnVa]

I think many of us acknowledge what a bunch of you are saying, but disagree that - even with the special circumstance of Hoyer knowing the system - getting a second round pick "and Hoyer," however that came about, and being on the phone for only ten minutes with what sounds like a pretty pleasantly surprised SF F.O., suggests a misreading of the market or a lack of getting the absolute best possible return for a prime asset.

Do we know that no other calls were made before SF? We just know that call was quick and deal done. We don’t know who he called before that.

Nothing in BB’s history says he isn’t thorough.

 

[Stitch01]

I think its possible that they left value on the table, but amount of "lost value" seems disproportionate to the attention its getting. Would everyone really be that much happier if they had gotten a 2nd and a conditional 4th or something?

 

[mikeot]

Seriously? Do you really think there is even the slightest chance of this?

Dude. Come on.

I'm as astounded as y'all, just intrigued by the possibility, however outlandish.

 

[tims4wins]

I think its possible that they left value on the table, but amount of "lost value" seems disproportionate to the attention its getting. Would everyone really be that much happier if they had gotten a 2nd and a conditional 4th or something?

Exactly, this is how I feel