This will be Derek Jeter's final season

JohntheBaptist

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Getting on him for dealing with Rodriguez as he saw fit personally feels like talking out of both sides of one's mouth. From what I've witnessed of him over the years, the "leave it alone and do my own thing" approach *is* leadership. Rodriguez is a 24/7 clownshow. Don't get sucked into his silliness--it's a point in Jeter's favor, not against. The "leadership" thing is hero worship for sure, but it doesn't mean he wasn't occasionally setting a smart example for the relatively unfamiliar around him. Suddenly "being given the cold shoulder from a teammate" is a straight-face reason for potential on-field struggles? If not, who cares?
 
And I still think the much-referenced move to 3B Jeter should have made isn't as slam dunk as people always make it out to be. They had two guys for two positions--A-Rod was almost certainly going to be better at both. One path, you move Jeter to the "easier" position, let A-Rod shine at SS, create a bunch of controversy and distraction, Jeter's reaction notwithstanding (and yes, maybe this then pisses him off--maybe he just doesn't agree he's worse?). The other path, you move A-Rod to the position that he, given his increasingly bulky frame and better arm by this time, likely more fit for of the two, leave the inferior defender in his more comfortable position, and no one but Red Sox fans bats an eye over it. I don't think the latter is such a terrible conclusion, ultimately, though the former isn't either. And there's no way he "refused," the Yankees made the call on it unequivocally and pretty much immediately, as I recall it.
 
Everyone writing these treacly homages are making asses of themselves, which considering how generally decent and canny a guy he seems to be, strikes me as more of the point. It would be easy to get at the things he's done right and why he's a decent example by approaching him realistically--but that's not enough, it has to be topped and overblown beyond all recognition. Getting at why Jeter is really, secretly, after all, a huge jerk (while tremendously fun, don't get me wrong) misses the point to me. Just mho.
 

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Yes, yes, yes. I didn't have the energy to make a post like that myself earlier, but it's much better coming from a Sox fan anyway. 
 

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The only moral superiority I ever see associated with baseball payrolls is the yearly SOSH infatuation with winning the Payroll Efficiency Championship.
Any fan with even marginal knowledge of these things knows that it's impossible for a big market team to be the most efficient in dollars per win.
 

derekson

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glennhoffmania said:
 
 
I know SSS and defensive metrics limitations apply, but I find it interesting that both FG and B-Ref have Jeter as a plus defender in 2014.
 
Edit: I just checked and now B-Ref has him as slightly worse than replacement on defense. 
 
They never had him as a plus defender. You're looking at the wrong statistic. dWAR includes the positional adjustment, so Jeter is getting credit for standing at SS in comparison with playing another position. He has been a handful of runs below average on fielding since I first looked in April by both DRS (bb-ref) and UZR (FG). UZR does have him as merely 2.1 runs below average so far, which seems a little hard to believe, but that's small sample defensive numbers for you.
 
dWAR is pretty much useless unless you're looking to compare defenders across positions. It's basically the defensive metric of choice (DRS for bb-ref and UZR for Fangraphs) converted from a run scale to a win scale and added to the positional adjustment for the amount of time accrued at each position.
 

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JohntheBaptist said:
And I still think the much-referenced move to 3B Jeter should have made isn't as slam dunk as people always make it out to be. They had two guys for two positions--A-Rod was almost certainly going to be better at both. One path, you move Jeter to the "easier" position, let A-Rod shine at SS, create a bunch of controversy and distraction, Jeter's reaction notwithstanding (and yes, maybe this then pisses him off--maybe he just doesn't agree he's worse?). The other path, you move A-Rod to the position that he, given his increasingly bulky frame and better arm by this time, likely more fit for of the two, leave the inferior defender in his more comfortable position, and no one but Red Sox fans bats an eye over it. I don't think the latter is such a terrible conclusion, ultimately, though the former isn't either. And there's no way he "refused," the Yankees made the call on it unequivocally and pretty much immediately, as I recall it.
 
I would suspect that the Yankees discussed it with Jeter first before making that call immediately. And by suspect, I mean "there is literally a 0% chance they did not check to see how he felt about moving to third."
 
My argument is that it was absolutely as much as a slam dunk. Jeter always had a strong arm and shitty range, as evidenced by his patented "I can't get to this ball and plant my feet so I'll jump off my back leg" move. I'll give you one guess as to where a strong arm is an important asset and shitty range is not as damning a weakness.
 
But honestly, that doesn't even matter. The SS position is SO much more important than 3B that to do anything but put your best SS there - especially when he's literally coming off two gold glove seasons - is just absolutely asinine.
 
Sure, clubhouse chemistry, upsetting the Captain... you can make the argument that those intangible things can partially or completely offset the tangible run-saving that *would* have resulted from putting A-Rod at short, but just know you're making one of those nebulous intangibles/chemistry arguments that don't tend to go over well here. All the objective data in the world says that from a strict run prevention perspective, it was goddamn ass-backwards to put the better defensive SS at 3B.
 

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Old Fart Tree said:
 
I would suspect that the Yankees discussed it with Jeter first before making that call immediately. And by suspect, I mean "there is literally a 0% chance they did not check to see how he felt about moving to third."
 
My argument is that it was absolutely as much as a slam dunk. Jeter always had a strong arm and shitty range, as evidenced by his patented "I can't get to this ball and plant my feet so I'll jump off my back leg" move. I'll give you one guess as to where a strong arm is an important asset and shitty range is not as damning a weakness.
 
But honestly, that doesn't even matter. The SS position is SO much more important than 3B that to do anything but put your best SS there - especially when he's literally coming off two gold glove seasons - is just absolutely asinine.
 
Sure, clubhouse chemistry, upsetting the Captain... you can make the argument that those intangible things can partially or completely offset the tangible run-saving that *would* have resulted from putting A-Rod at short, but just know you're making one of those nebulous intangibles/chemistry arguments that don't tend to go over well here. All the objective data in the world says that from a strict run prevention perspective, it was goddamn ass-backwards to put the better defensive SS at 3B.
 
I used to be of this position, until Hambone pointed out that a big part of Jeter's shitty range is that he gets a really late jump on the ball such that he wouldn't be able to play even a serviceable 3B, to say nothing about his issues going left.
 
It would have been funny to see the Gold Glove winning SS get hit in the face by a ball, though.
 

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So the reason he should've stayed at the most important defensive position is because he would've sucked no matter where else you put him?
 

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It's about trying to quantify the suck. If the amount Jeter sucks at 3B compared to how much he sucks at SS, suckage weighted by importance of position, exceeds how much better than Jeter ARod would be at SS vis a vis how much better he would be than Jeter at 3B, then it makes sense to play ARod at 3B and Jeter at SS.
 
It's science.
 

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If you can make the SS position the best in baseball in exchange for making any non-catcher position absolutely terrible, you make that trade. Jeter would not have been a great 3B, but keeping him at SS was just ridiculous. Downgrading any non-C position for a great SS is worth it.
 

glennhoffmania

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Reverend said:
It's about trying to quantify the suck. If the amount Jeter sucks at 3B compared to how much he sucks at SS, suckage weighted by importance of position, exceeds how much better than Jeter ARod would be at SS vis a vis how much better he would be than Jeter at 3B, then it makes sense to play ARod at 3B and Jeter at SS.
 
It's science.
 
But your brain is 1/3 the size of mine.
 

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Presumably, regurgitating this same argument is meant to shed poor light on Derek Jeter (vis a vis the representation of his "character," as we were discussing) in some way--it doesn't. You can make a nice argument the infield configuration wasn't the right way to go; you can easily make an argument that it was probably the better idea overall. That was my point. Trying to convince one way or the other bogs it down--I can already see where you're coming from on that, I just reject the idea that
 
- there was only one move to make
- Derek Jeter refused that clear move, instead of the Yankees making the decision they knew everyone would be bored by/ fine with
- Derek Jeter refusing that move meaning he's really secretly a horrible leader and likely an asshole
 
Nothing I'm reading here convinces me that it was even approaching a slam dunk when considering everyone/ everything involved. Most of it is contingent on his "refusing" the move, which never happened. Why would they run it by him? The Yankees decided immediately the "easiest" move for them was to see if Rodriguez would move. He was clearly fine with it from the get-go, they announced it basically at the same time as the trade--why would you even have to run it by Jeter unless Rodriguez was hesitant? For better or worse, as they've stated in the past, they saw Jeter as their SS. They were trading for a 3B. Maybe that was misguided, maybe it was smarter to shake the boat as little as possible in the wake of a huge trade. Doesn't seem to tell me much about Jeter.
 
Also--maybe Derek Jeter didn't believe he was a worse defensive SS, and after years of helping them win championships, would have bristled at the assumption that the shiny new toy bumps him off his spot. How is that a lack of leadership? And so what if it means he's ultra-competitive? And since Rodriguez willingly moved to 3B, so much of this story happens completely outside Jeter's purview--it really isn't a Jeter story, it's a Yankee FO story.
 
Also, this notion that Rodriguez was ever so immovable a defensive SS is a bit much too, as is using his two Gold Gloves as proof. Hey, what happened next? Jeter won a bunch of Gold Gloves! Rodriguez was getting bigger by the season, he profiled very well as someone who may end up moving there anyway. He was very good, but we're not talking about Mark Belanger or Pokey Reese either. And yes I am aware of the depth of Jeter's suck at the position--but we're talking about a subset of people for whom defensive evaluation was still a very mobile set of goalposts (particularly at the time).
 
More to the point, no part of the anecdote says anything close to what you want it to say about him. Ultimately, I would probably have moved Jeter way before that, and considered it very seriously at trade time, too. Still, talking about that story ten years later as primary evidence of his poor leadership or whatever is playing with the same goofy rules his hero-worshippers are, and is probably telling as to the overall case.
 
The series of events doesn't say much either way about Derek Jeter, and even if it went exactly as people seem to wish it had, it would be a pretty mild dent in a guy's overall rap-sheet. He's human, and obviously has been an asshole at moments in his life, so yes the hagiographies are braindead. Doesn't mean this anecdote isn't just more projection of a different kind, though.
 
edit:
Sure, clubhouse chemistry, upsetting the Captain... you can make the argument that those intangible things can partially or completely offset the tangible run-saving that *would* have resulted from putting A-Rod at short, but just know you're making one of those nebulous intangibles/chemistry arguments that don't tend to go over well here. All the objective data in the world says that from a strict run prevention perspective, it was goddamn ass-backwards to put the better defensive SS at 3B.
Eh, not really. You're putting all your eggs in the basket that suggests Rodriguez at 3B and Jeter at SS is demonstrably worse than Jeter at 3B and Rodriguez at SS, which I've never seen any "objective data" on and don't really believe with any certainty. We're not talking about an abstract 3B and SS, we're talking about two specific players, one of which seemed to be growing into a corner IF spot anyway. I'd also add that it sorta worked out--Jeter's defensive numbers improved drastically having a good defender at 3B, and Rodriguez was perfectly fine there.
 
Further, it isn't a chemistry/ intangibles argument, it's just common sense--the move that was made would have smoothed the transaction exponentially, that's not really debatable. The Yankees decided that was of value considering the breadth of distraction that trade created. Don't see how that says anything about Jeter.
 

derekson

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Reverend said:
 
I used to be of this position, until Hambone pointed out that a big part of Jeter's shitty range is that he gets a really late jump on the ball such that he wouldn't be able to play even a serviceable 3B, to say nothing about his issues going left.
 
It would have been funny to see the Gold Glove winning SS get hit in the face by a ball, though.
 
This is why Jeter should have played second base after the ARod trade. His strong arm for the position would've allowed him to play a deep 2B which would have made up for his terrible reaction time and kept his range at 2B decent. I'm sure Cano could have come up as a 3B and done just fine if Jeter had been playing at 2B. Cano has the arm and reaction to play a solid 3B.
 

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John, you're making some assumptions about both players that simply aren't true based on the conversation I had with someone who had inside info. That doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong and he's necessarily right, but there is clearly another possible sequence of events for how the decision regarding who plays where went down.
 

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glennhoffmania said:
John, you're making some assumptions about both players that simply aren't true based on the conversation I had with someone who had inside info. That doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong and he's necessarily right, but there is clearly another possible sequence of events for how the decision regarding who plays where went down.
Yea I'm going on my memory of how the event played out then and since- if there was further info on the story you heard I definitely missed it. Can you paraphrase it or what thread was it from?

Its not that I cant see him being a diva--hes human--just that this story is always presented to me as "Derek Jeter really puts himself before the team," which doesn't seem to follow at all with how I've always understood it playing out. If NY came to him and said "this would be best for the team and were going w that," and his response was a blanket refusal, I'm right there with you, even if I thought he was ultimately right. Thats not the version I recall reading, nor does it make much sense to me
given what happened but again, if you heard otherwise from someone who knows Im 100% all ears.

Putting the onus on him to see himself clearly as inferior defensively and then accepting the move is a stretch, so the leg of the narrative that he should have volunteered it or whatever is still seems to be holding him to a comically high standard.
 

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Expecting an elite athlete to suddenly ignore what his peers are constantly telling him, raise his hand and say, "I'm definitely worse and my moving is clearly the only way to attack this problem," then move aside for the new guy in town? And if he doesn't do this, and his maybe considering himself the guy's equal and that maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to simply slot A-Rod into 3B he's somehow proven how poor a leader and guy he is?
 
Yes.
 
I'm not trying to tell anyone Derek Jeter was a good SS or that he's Saint Derek. I just don't buy this as evidence he's somehow some selfish detriment to his team.
 

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Whether, or how much, he is/was a detriment is obviously pretty subjective.  I don't think there's much doubt that he's had selfish tendencies over the years though.  And in a lot of cases I don't really fault him.  So it's not that people are accusing Jeter of being an awful person.  It's that the narrative and reality aren't all that close.
 
As for the story, basically ARod apparently wanted and expected to play SS since he was clearly the better SS.  Jeter was really pissed that ARod assumed this and suggested it because he had no intention of switching positions.  How much he influenced the decision to put ARod at 3B and why Cashman/Torre decided to leave Jeter at SS, who knows.  I think it was pretty clear that it wasn't solely based on objective evaluations of the two players.
 
So one version of the story is that neither player willingly moved to 3B or volunteered to do so, and that a major factor was Jeter's desire, legacy, ego, etc.  We never heard ARod bitch about it.  In fact I remember an interview in which he said the decision made sense and if Jeter had been traded to Texas then Jeter would be the one to switch, but since he's the incumbent in NY he should stay at SS.  But privately he thought he should be the SS.
 
I think that ARod is as big a douche as a person can be so I'm hardly sticking up for him.  But I think it's interesting that some people defend Jeter by saying he wanted to play SS because of how competitive and confident he is in his abilities and he shouldn't just step aside from another player, yet Jeter was furious that ARod basically felt the same way.
 

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Duly noted. 
 
I guess your vision of what leadership on the diamond is differs from, well, most of the rest of baseball.  If he is widely acknowledged to be a good leader by his teammates, peers, and various other people associated with baseball, he is a good leader.  It isn't like there is a metric that proves someone is a good leader or not.  It doesn't mean he is without flaws.  It isn't tangible.  The only way to tell is from the respect he gets from his peers and those he is considered to have led.  Opinions from supportive fans or opposing fanbases don't really count for anything.
 

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
Wait, so because "his peers are constantly telling" him he's a good SS, that makes him one in his own head? He doesn't notice the balls he can't get to, the hits he causes his pitchers, etc? I'll give him credit enough to say he knew he wasn't as good as ARod and refused to move. Because otherwise he's not the smart guy he portrays as. I'd give him more respect to say he was stubborn and proud than I would to say he was delusional because he got voted to the All Star game and won GGs that were abject jokes. 
 
And I'm sorry but please lay out for me why a team needs a leader at SS? Why does moving 20 feet to your left make a guy need to be a better person or leader? 
 
I'm sorry but it was absolutely selfish of him to refuse the move and it was a detriment to his team. And it's not hard to see that. He's not the first HoF SS to do that (Ripken had him beat by a good bit), but I'm sorry, it didn't take him raising his hand and offering to move. But a true "leader" and "captain" would recognize the reality of the situation and do what best for the team. 
 
The first paragraph here is so out of touch with reality I stopped reading after that.  Sorry.
 
And ghoff--if that's how it went down, it does make them both look like squabbling divas. That they both really wanted to play SS doesn't seem super damning, but agreed it doesn't make him look so hot either. Thanks for passing it on.
 

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Jeter plans to publish everything from children's books to non-fiction for adults. His first children's book, entitled The Contract, is now available for pre-order on Amazon.com. Here's the cover:
 

 
Here's the description of the book, complete with typos:
 
As a young boy, Derek Jeter dreams of begin the shortstop for the New York Yankees. He even imagines himself in the World Series. So when Derek is chosen for the Little League Tigers, he hopes to play shortstop. But on the day of the assignments, Derek Starts at second base. Still, he tries his best while he wishes and dreams of that shortstop spot. And to help him stay focused on school, his parents make him a contract: keep up the grades or no baseball. Derek makes sure he always plays his best game—on and off the baseball field!
 
 But wait, there's more:
 
According to Nina Ruggiero of AM New York, Jeter's publishing group has announced two other upcoming books as well:

Chronicle of Jeter's last season
A title has not yet been announced (perhaps because the story is not yet finished) for a chronicle of Jeter's final season, to be told primarily through photographs taken by Chris Anderson.
Publication date: Fall 2014
"The Ed Lucas Story"
After going blind at just 12 years old, Ed Lucas went on to study broadcasting and become the first person without his sight to cover baseball in such a capacity. His story is also in development to be told in film form.
Jeter's publishing outfit has three books plus a film in the works already. Impressive!
 

 
Link
 

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Ghoff, this obsession you have with Jeter seems a little...unhealthy.  Is it personal?  Did your significant other get a gift basket or something from Capt. Intangibles?  Did you?
 

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glennhoffmania said:
After hearing the comments from the guy I met (see the thread on the Sox forum for the background), the Jeter situation is even more ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.  The guy allegedly is hurting and just trying to get through the season, yet they continue to run him out there pretty much every day, even DHing him when they want to put Ryan in the field.  Has there ever been a more inept second hitter and/or guy who has to DH when he's not in the field? 
 
Plus the stories I heard about him and ARod partly show the kind of guy he really is.  Basically he held a grudge and barely spoke to ARod for over a decade over something ARod said in 2003.  That isn't the kind of leadership and putting the team first mentality that you'd expect from the guy who is constantly referred to as one of the greatest leaders ever.
 
I know SSS and defensive metrics limitations apply, but I find it interesting that both FG and B-Ref have Jeter as a plus defender in 2014.
 
Edit: I just checked and now B-Ref has him as slightly worse than replacement on defense. 
I still believe that if Jeter were really the 100% team first guy he gets portrayed as, he would've moved his ass to 3rd the second A-Rod became a Yankee.
 

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I imagine you watching the All-Star Game with your eyes forcibly pinned open, Clockwork Orange style. :)
 

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I'm torn between not watching at all and recording it so I can watch the hilarity over and over.
 

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glennhoffmania said:
Dear lord.
 
After viewing this video, I've composed a reply about five or six times and I keep scrubbing my comment because I just can't capture it.
 
Maybe I'll do better tomorrow, but for now I am at an absolute loss for words.
 

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Average Reds said:
 
After viewing this video, I've composed a reply about five or six times and I keep scrubbing my comment because I just can't capture it.
 
Maybe I'll do better tomorrow, but for now I am at an absolute loss for words.
 
I started a list of athletes who were clearly better than Jeter but got far less attention when they retired, but the list was way too long to post and I kept thinking of more.  All I keep thinking is, the guy was never the best at his own position, forget about best on his own team, in his own league, or in all of MLB, so what the hell is going on?
 

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Companies like to sell products? They like to capitalize on popular athletes to do it? Popular athletes in big markets who are approaching key milestones or are retiring?

That sort of thing.
 

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glennhoffmania said:
 
I started a list of athletes who were clearly better than Jeter but got far less attention when they retired, but the list was way too long to post and I kept thinking of more.  All I keep thinking is, the guy was never the best at his own position, forget about best on his own team, in his own league, or in all of MLB, so what the hell is going on?
 
He's played baseball's premium position in baseball's biggest market for the last 20 years and won five World Series while doing it. He's also a relatively attractive and marketable person. Even if the Yankees had to pay huge dollars to keep Jeter in New York, it's pretty rare that someone plays an entire 20 year career on the same team.
 

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EvilEmpire said:
Ghoff, this obsession you have with Jeter seems a little...unhealthy.  Is it personal?  Did your significant other get a gift basket or something from Capt. Intangibles?  Did you?
 
He's not obsessed with Jeter but with the phenomenon of Jeter. Having lived in the NY area in the past, I found myself pretty fascinated by the phenomenon and the related mythology too.
 
People would hear that I was from Boston or that I was a Red Sox fan and they'd ask me what I thought of Jeter. Jeter was a good hitter, so they decided he was a plus fielder as well and the New York Frickin' Times runs an article that he's a gold glover after making a nifty backup play at home. Elderly gentlemen bring Jeter up for no real reason and talk about what a nice guy he seems to be despite the fact that his interviews sound like a well trained Nuke LaLoosh on quaaludes. Women decide he's the most handsome man in imagination.
 
More to the point, people flip the fuck out if you say anything less than glowing about him. Not everybody, but some. And it doesn't even have to be terribly negative--deny that he's an amazing fielding short stop, or (until recently) that his offensive numbers were on decline, or that he won on some fairly stacked clubs and it was like you had beaten Santa Clause with little Billy's toy train in front of a group f orphans or something. I lived with a guy in grad school for 7 years and two summers ago performed his marriage ceremony, he's a fantastic guy and one of my closest friends and the only time in the 14 years I have known him that he showed me any disrespect was when he threw a hissy fit over my "Jeter thing" when I suggested that the new fielding stats being developed were causing people to consider that Jeter was below average.
 
I've never seen the equivalent. Not even with Bird in Boston--try to diss Bird's game and people just roll their eyes and laugh. Around NYC, people jealously and fiercely protect Jeter like the followers of a movement protect their leader in movies.
 
As though Jeter even needs that. I put forth that it's objectively fascinating. 
 

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Well said, Rev.  I considered replying myself but didn't feel like getting into another Jeter semi-pissing match.  I've had way too many of those over the last decade or so.
 

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glennhoffmania said:
Well said, Rev.  I considered replying myself but didn't feel like getting into another Jeter semi-pissing match.  I've had way too many of those over the last decade or so.
 
I understand very well, as per above. I mean, he's a first ballot hall of famer, the leader and face of a period of dominance on the part of his franchise. He's objectively a great baseball player. It's really something that you can lead with all that and still find yourself in an argument with some Jeter fans.
 
I mean, come on Yanker fans--let's be honest: there's a reason you hang out here and not on a Yankee board, yeah?
 

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EvilEmpire said:
Companies like to sell products? They like to capitalize on popular athletes to do it? Popular athletes in big markets who are approaching key milestones or are retiring?

That sort of thing.
 
 
Weiden & Kennedy are the pioneers for using iconic athletes to sell product for Nike.  (This is one of their first efforts for the Jordan division of Nike.)  They've done it with an almost uncanny sense of perspective in terms of understanding how to blend reverence (for the athletes and the sport itself) and irreverence to create an entire sub-genre of advertising that is instantly recognizable. 
 
You can see some of this reflected in that video - the blurred Met player faces; the inclusion of Mr. Met are both very funny - but IMO they've missed the mark by buying into the dual bullshit ideas that (1) we're witnessing the retirement tour of perhaps the greatest player of all time, and (2) that everyone has to give their respects to the passing into retirement of such an icon.
 
They have badly overstated the case and by doing so they risk backlash.  I mean, I see that video and my reaction is that I want Lester to hit Jeter in the head with a fastball.  And I want the a$$holes who play Red Sox fans in that video drawn and quartered. 
 
If I were a Yankee fan and I read what I just wrote it would amuse me.  But regardless of my own overreaction, that isn't the kind of response that sells product.  It's the kind of response that makes people hate the brand behind it. 
 
I like Jeter and (as I have said many times here) I consider him to be one of the best shortstops ever to play the game.  Why that reality isn't enough for the cult of CI is one of the great mysteries of the universe.
 

ronlt40

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Reverend said:
 
More to the point, people flip the fuck out if you say anything less than glowing about him. Not everybody, but some. And it doesn't even have to be terribly negative--deny that he's an amazing fielding short stop 
In 2008 I almost got into a fight during a round of golf when i called Jeter "the worst fielding SS in the AL". Two of the guys i was paired with flipped out. 
 

EvilEmpire

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I mean, come on Yanker fans--let's be honest: there's a reason you hang out here and not on a Yankee board, yeah?[/size]
That's sort of my point. The Yankee fans here aren't pink hat fans. We recognize Jeter's shortcomings pretty well. Have for years. We even write about it sometimes. Then Ghoff wanders in here and sort of goes over-the-top on the anti-Jeter. It's like he's evil twin of one of the kids on nyyfans that many of us want to avoid.

It's not upsetting or anything. It's amusing.
 

EvilEmpire

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They have badly overstated the case and by doing so they risk backlash.  I mean, I see that video and my reaction is that I want Lester to hit Jeter in the head with a fastball.  And I want the a$$holes who play Red Sox fans in that video drawn and quartered.
Everything you wrote makes sense to me. I just wonder if they're in on the joke too. Negative attention from a backlash is still attention, isn't it? I'm sure they'd love to hear people arguing about it in bars, on messageboards...


edit: sp
 

EvilEmpire

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By the way, did I mention that I no longer want Lester to stay after seeing him participate in that video?
 
I may change my mind later.  Maybe.
You have to admit, the man knows how to negotiate.
 

LeoCarrillo

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I really, really, really hate to do this. But I'm gonna. I think what Rev said above, in relation to the fans idol-worship, is dead-on. And so much of my animosity toward "the Yankees" is really animosity or ill will toward their fans. You know the ones. The entitled, bullying-before-2004 unwashed masses. That all stands.
 
As for Jeter the player and person, and whether or not he actually does have a magical glow about him. An odor to his feces. A David Koreshianistic appeal. I can only share this one first-person anecdote. (To skip ahead, he kinda does.)
 
I'd been a sports reporter in Denver for a few years and moved to NYC in 2000. Late in the 2000 season, my old editor wanted to do a piece about Paul O'Neill because he'd played AAA ball in Denver (for the Cincy affiliate, the Zephyrs, actually. Before the Roberto Kelly trade, of course, put him in pinstripes). Quick aside: O'Neill was a prick. But we were talking about Jeter. While hanging around the locker room at Yankee Stadium before a game against the Indians, naturally I rubber-necked and eavesdropped for my own amusement. At one point David Justice took off his shirt to get dressed and apparently I held my gaze for a second too long because he says to some agent guy next to him, about me, "Look at this guy, checking out my shit." Fucking dick. Juicer. He's ripped as shit. I looked for like four seconds. Whatever. But we were talking about Jeter. 
 
So, one of the clubhouse minion type guys comes over to Jeter, as he's sitting on a stool and starting to get dressed and says to him, "Hey, Sandy Alomar's kid really want to come say hi. I guess he met you a year ago and wants to just come in for a second. Oh, and he's really nervous." So Jeter of course says sure, and as the minion guy starts to leave Jeter stops him and says, "Hey, what's his name?" Minion says, "It's Marcus."
 
So a few minutes later, as Jeter is at his locker, this 10-year-old kid is led in by the minion who says, "Derek, this is ..." And Jeter turns around and puts on a huge smile and says, "Marcus, my man." Gives the kid a cool handshake, sits down with him for a few minutes. Tosses a ball back and forth with him a little. Finally the minion guy leads out Marcus, who doesn't even look around the locker room. 
 
So the son of a Major Leaguer, and nephew of Robbie Alomar for that matter, was only interested in -- and was actually nervous about -- saying hi to Jeter. And Jeter could not have been cooler about it. And that's all I've got to on Jeter.
 
Happy ending, though: In the game, the Indians romped and a young Manny Ramirez hit a rocket so goddamn hard off Denny Neagle that it hit the small vertical face of the second deck and I swear almost bounced back 30 rows into the field of play.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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Reverend said:
 
He's not obsessed with Jeter but with the phenomenon of Jeter. Having lived in the NY area in the past, I found myself pretty fascinated by the phenomenon and the related mythology too.
 
People would hear that I was from Boston or that I was a Red Sox fan and they'd ask me what I thought of Jeter. Jeter was a good hitter, so they decided he was a plus fielder as well and the New York Frickin' Times runs an article that he's a gold glover after making a nifty backup play at home. Elderly gentlemen bring Jeter up for no real reason and talk about what a nice guy he seems to be despite the fact that his interviews sound like a well trained Nuke LaLoosh on quaaludes. Women decide he's the most handsome man in imagination.
 
More to the point, people flip the fuck out if you say anything less than glowing about him. Not everybody, but some. And it doesn't even have to be terribly negative--deny that he's an amazing fielding short stop, or (until recently) that his offensive numbers were on decline, or that he won on some fairly stacked clubs and it was like you had beaten Santa Clause with little Billy's toy train in front of a group f orphans or something. I lived with a guy in grad school for 7 years and two summers ago performed his marriage ceremony, he's a fantastic guy and one of my closest friends and the only time in the 14 years I have known him that he showed me any disrespect was when he threw a hissy fit over my "Jeter thing" when I suggested that the new fielding stats being developed were causing people to consider that Jeter was below average.
 
I've never seen the equivalent. Not even with Bird in Boston--try to diss Bird's game and people just roll their eyes and laugh. Around NYC, people jealously and fiercely protect Jeter like the followers of a movement protect their leader in movies.
 
As though Jeter even needs that. I put forth that it's objectively fascinating. 
 
Been living here since 1996 and I co-sign everything Rev posted. Of course it's not everybody, just in the same way that not everyone walking around Times Square's a tourist. ("Phenomenon" = "perception").
 
"Do you believe in Jeter as our lord and savior" chatter's the crotch grab/"how much ya bench" lazy litmus test of whether someone's a "true" Yankee fan, and it's odious.
 

Reverend

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EvilEmpire said:
That's sort of my point. The Yankee fans here aren't pink hat fans. We recognize Jeter's shortcomings pretty well. Have for years. We even write about it sometimes. Then Ghoff wanders in here and sort of goes over-the-top on the anti-Jeter. It's like he's evil twin of one of the kids on nyyfans that many of us want to avoid.

It's not upsetting or anything. It's amusing.
 
Oh, I hear you. And you make an interesting point about the symbiotic relationship. I just wanted to offer some context for anyone who had never lived in the NYC area, as much for the Yanker fans as for the Sox fans.
 
As I said, in my experience, it's sui generis and it's not just lunatic fanboys but ostensibly... well, let's just say people you wouldn't expect. And more than you would expect--it's like hindu: you can read about it, but you have to live in it to understand how different it really is.
 
 
EvilEmpire said:
You have to admit, the man knows how to negotiate.
 
OK, that's funny.
 

glennhoffmania

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EvilEmpire said:
That's sort of my point. The Yankee fans here aren't pink hat fans. We recognize Jeter's shortcomings pretty well. Have for years. We even write about it sometimes. Then Ghoff wanders in here and sort of goes over-the-top on the anti-Jeter. It's like he's evil twin of one of the kids on nyyfans that many of us want to avoid.

It's not upsetting or anything. It's amusing.
 
There was a story on the front page of CBS Sports' web site about Jeter and his books.  I posted it in the Jeter thread.  How is that over-the-top anti-Jeter?  What's more amusing is when Yankee fans get their panties in a bunch because someone on a Sox board pokes fun at their messiah.   
 

terrynever

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Rev asked why some Yankee fans hang out here. I submit it's because there is less traffic and noise on SOSH's Yankee threads. You can actually have a discussion without having to deal with all the noise on a Yankee board. It's the same reason I like to vacation in the off-season for tourist places. And this is just a better board to talk baseball on.