Reverend said:
Maybe Ripken in Baltimore? As a person living in MD when I would talk about Ripken and the free pass he got for everything down here and how it was a little tedious, folks elsewhere reacted as though I was out of my mind.
This will be Derek Jeter's final season
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Maybe Ripken in Baltimore? As a person living in MD when I would talk about Ripken and the free pass he got for everything down here and how it was a little tedious, folks elsewhere reacted as though I was out of my mind.
I had to cut out "really" 30 times. Apparently there is a limit on quote boxes.
It isn't just the words, but the volume. I get it. I really do.
The only comp I've thought of at some point in the past is Brady. As a non-Pats fan in Boston it was tough talking about Brady.
The difference is, Brady might be the best ever. Jeter isn't. I mean, I'm sure some Yankee fans think so, but that's not what gets the goats of Sox fans and others who roll their eyes at Jeter hagiography like this. It's that to so many Yankee fans, Jeter is All That Is Good and Right About the Yankees. Carrying on The Tradition ... representing The Best The Game Has to Offer. Forget Mt. Rushmore -- for these guys, he's like one of those Lennon/Jimi/Morrison/Janis posters with all of them in the clouds looking down upon us. For them, Jeter will forever be in those clouds, hitting majestic 295' home runs to the opposite field for all eternity.
And for them, worship at this shrine is fueled by a belief that the Yankees' athletic success (and hence Jeter's) was born of moral superiority.
Now, of course, that's completely and utter nonsense. Everyone knows that Jeter was a fine ballplayer and that the team he played on in the 1990's was an exceptional baseball team. Morality had nothing to do with it. Money had something to do with it ... it extended and prolonged that period of success into the 2000's because it allowed the Yankees to keep all their best players into perpetuity.
But it didn't create it. As much as it pains Red Sox fans to admit, the success of the Yankees in the 1990's had very little to do with money and a lot to do with a great farm system and tremendous management ... for a time.
And that's where it gets murky. George Steinbrenner may not have been around to build this great team ... but he sure was around to enjoy its spoils and lord them over everyone else. To brag about his team's success, weep about what it meant. He was around to taunt the competition and even St. Derek from time to time to remind him that no one was better or bigger than the Yankees.
Why is this relevant? Because every Yankee fan, no matter how casual, has bought into this in some way. I know this not because I'm a Yankee fan -- but because I'm a Patriot fan. Just as Patriot fans believe that there is something "better" about our team and our brilliance, so, too, do Yankee fans. It's rooted in our desire to believe that athletic success means something more than a bunch of guys hitting a ball really far or running really fast. That there's something more that even "excellence" doesn't quite capture.
It's about winning.
Or more accurately, our desire to be "winners." To not only be the first kid chosen on the playground ... but more importantly, to never be the last. How else to explain the sight of Billy Crystal openly weeping when the Yankees lost to the Red Sox in 2004? For him (and it wasn't an accident he was in that stupid Re2pect ad), 2004 wasn't (just) about losing to their hated rivals. It was about the shame of no longer being able to stake a claim to superiority. 2004 was the end of that fantasy, just as 2007 was for Patriot fans (funny how Arizona played a role in both dynasties dying ... Our Own Private Ozymadnias, as it were).
At any rate, even though team success fades, individual success fades more slowly and is more sustainable. Players like Jeter and Brady can put up individual numbers that reassure us that they're still winners, even if their team never will be again. Maybe it's because of PEDs. Or maybe it's because one guy killin' it is easier than 25 or 53 doing it together. They let us imagine that despite everything we learn in adulthood, there is something beyond the field about our love of sports and that maybe our cheering for them will rub off in some way on our own miserable little existences.
And for them, worship at this shrine is fueled by a belief that the Yankees' athletic success (and hence Jeter's) was born of moral superiority.
Now, of course, that's completely and utter nonsense. Everyone knows that Jeter was a fine ballplayer and that the team he played on in the 1990's was an exceptional baseball team. Morality had nothing to do with it. Money had something to do with it ... it extended and prolonged that period of success into the 2000's because it allowed the Yankees to keep all their best players into perpetuity.
But it didn't create it. As much as it pains Red Sox fans to admit, the success of the Yankees in the 1990's had very little to do with money and a lot to do with a great farm system and tremendous management ... for a time.
And that's where it gets murky. George Steinbrenner may not have been around to build this great team ... but he sure was around to enjoy its spoils and lord them over everyone else. To brag about his team's success, weep about what it meant. He was around to taunt the competition and even St. Derek from time to time to remind him that no one was better or bigger than the Yankees.
Why is this relevant? Because every Yankee fan, no matter how casual, has bought into this in some way. I know this not because I'm a Yankee fan -- but because I'm a Patriot fan. Just as Patriot fans believe that there is something "better" about our team and our brilliance, so, too, do Yankee fans. It's rooted in our desire to believe that athletic success means something more than a bunch of guys hitting a ball really far or running really fast. That there's something more that even "excellence" doesn't quite capture.
It's about winning.
Or more accurately, our desire to be "winners." To not only be the first kid chosen on the playground ... but more importantly, to never be the last. How else to explain the sight of Billy Crystal openly weeping when the Yankees lost to the Red Sox in 2004? For him (and it wasn't an accident he was in that stupid Re2pect ad), 2004 wasn't (just) about losing to their hated rivals. It was about the shame of no longer being able to stake a claim to superiority. 2004 was the end of that fantasy, just as 2007 was for Patriot fans (funny how Arizona played a role in both dynasties dying ... Our Own Private Ozymadnias, as it were).
At any rate, even though team success fades, individual success fades more slowly and is more sustainable. Players like Jeter and Brady can put up individual numbers that reassure us that they're still winners, even if their team never will be again. Maybe it's because of PEDs. Or maybe it's because one guy killin' it is easier than 25 or 53 doing it together. They let us imagine that despite everything we learn in adulthood, there is something beyond the field about our love of sports and that maybe our cheering for them will rub off in some way on our own miserable little existences.
I don't want everyone to hate me. I mean, URI I can live with. But everyone?Papelbon's Poutine said:
Shit. On my phone. Can't do it justice. Basically, he had his personal assistant call Petra Nemcova to see if she wanted to go out on a date maybe two months after her fiancée was killed in the Thailand tsunami.
There's more, but she was appalled.
They'd never even met.
Not sure where you live, but I live on LI and everybody I know can never, ever say a bad word about Jeter.EvilEmpire said:
RedOctober3829 said:
The "here" I was talking about is the little community of Yankee fans here on SOSH. Pretty even-keeled bunch, for the most part.
I grew up in south Jersey, and but for a couple of years at Ft. Drum, NY and Ft. Bragg, NC, haven't lived on the east coast since I graduated from HS in 1988.
edit: But again, yeah, I know lot of those folks exist. That's a good part of the reason why many of us Yankees expats are here.
Yeah, my UPS guy has held it against me (mildly) for years when I talk shit about Jeter. This year he says "well, you won't have him to blame problems on much longer", because that's what I'm doing, blaming him unfairly.
The thing that amazes me about Jeter is that once you get past all of the hype and all of the understandable distaste for the hype, his counting numbers are insane, like if Pete Rose played his entire career at SS with 100 extra HRs tacked on (258 for Jeter, 160 for Rose), and that's not even getting into the postseason counting numbers. I've never been too much of a DJ fanboy (I liked Cano much more), but I do find it fascinating how polarizing he is. So few people seem able to look at him objectively, they feel compelled to go to one extreme or the other.
The thing that amazes me about Jeter is that once you get past all of the hype and all of the understandable distaste for the hype, his counting numbers are insane, like if Pete Rose played his entire career at SS with 100 extra HRs tacked on (258 for Jeter, 160 for Rose), and that's not even getting into the postseason counting numbers. I've never been too much of a DJ fanboy (I liked Cano much more), but I do find it fascinating how polarizing he is. So few people seem able to look at him objectively, they feel compelled to go to one extreme or the other.
Reverend said:
Never been to Haiti, but I'm skeptical--though I assume that the PM lives better than most there.
In other news:
TONE!!
Holy crap. MLB really will do anything to make a sponsor happy.
Except that Ripken moved to third when his defense had declined to allow Gold Glove-caliber defender Mike Bordick to play shortstop.Reverend said:
The streak is weird. He certainly didn't set out to break Gehrig's record. When would you notice that you have a shot, around 1000 games? And you still have 7 seasons to go at that point. He certainly produced for most of it, and by the time he was really declining I think that MLB would have had him killed if he had taken a day off.
I'm looking forward to the pre-game when they bring CI out in the golf cart and the all-stars gather around him in awe
I posted that Deadspin link onto my FB feed and so far only one reply. I'm very disappointed in my Jeter-loving friends.
The "Respect" commercial isn't all that bad, in the sense that's it's your typical Nike mythologizing-for-profit type approach.
BUT... having NYC cops and firefighters tip their cap is horrendous and borderline offensive.
BUT... having NYC cops and firefighters tip their cap is horrendous and borderline offensive.
RedOctober3829 said:
There was a hilariously biased SBNation article by ousted Yankees SBNation site writer Steven Goldman saying Jeter was the fourth best shortstop of all-time. His analysis of Jeter vs. Cronis was "Hey, Joe Cronin: F--k you."
http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2014/2/18/5420288/derek-jeter-new-york-yankees-retirement-career-history
That is what I was driving at. Though it is silly to think that a single day off would have righted the ship in Baltimore back then.Reverend said:
Hoplite said:
I saw this when it came out. It's pretty awesome. Basically, "players from previous decades were often undernourished, small, and played in segregated leagues - THEREFORE they're obviously not as good as Jeter." Also, Jeter gets extra credit for being a mediocre shortstop for a long period of time. Other players who move off the position get docked for it.
The Red Sox should find out what Lester got paid for being in that ad and deduct that amount from their offer.
Toe Nash said:
I distinctly recall being about 15 years old, standing around the TV at a friend's house, when Ripken broke the streak. It was me, 2-3 buddies, and one guy's father. The father went on and on about how amazing it was, and what a great role model Ripken was. One of my buddies said (more or less) "He gets paid millions of dollars every year to play baseball, and there are millions of people out there who never call in sick to work because they can't afford to. I mean, good for Ripken, but get out of here with this 'great role model' for us youngsters bullshit."
You'd have thought we had just called the pope a homosexual, judging from the father's completely agog response.
With Jeter, it's like that with about 90% of Yankees fans (or, about 70% of NYC). Criticizing Jeter isn't an impetus to have a baseball discussion, or even a discussion on society's relationship with sports; it's a dog whistle that says "This person is not one of us."
North Jersey, too. I'll often concede on his hitting, but if I dare say anything about his fielding, the locals jaws slowly drop a bit, they tilt their heads to the side, and they furrow their brows some, as if you had just in-comprehensively told them that the neighbor down the street that you were all having a beer with last night, had just dropped dead of a heart attack today. They can't believe you're actually saying it, it's like you're saying it just to be mean or hurtful. Then they break out the ol' GG argument.RedOctober3829 said:
And God help you if you ever utter the phrase "past a diving Jeter" in jest or out of context. They treat you like you dropped a barrage of F bombs at a kindergarten assembly.
Boomer and Carton just set up a drinking game for tonight, any time the announcers say: Derek, Jeter, Derek Jeter, The Captain.
Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
If they had done that last night, you could have gotten plastered. Did you know Todd Frazier's Little League team meet Jeter? Or that Brian Dozier wears #2 in his honor?
Or that Alou's nephew met him and didn't even want to talk to the other players in the locker room? Incredible journalism there.NYCSox said:
http://deadspin.com/the-hater-s-guide-to-derek-jeter-1605937020?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
Pretty harsh article from Drew Magary on Deadspin today. Must not have gotten a gift basket.
Pretty harsh article from Drew Magary on Deadspin today. Must not have gotten a gift basket.
mauidano said:
Actually I think it's pretty accurate. (The caveat being that Jeter may not have actually invited this stuff, so much as let it grow up around him. But short of manufacturing a scandal, I'm not sure what he could have done to prevent The Cult of Jeter from forming around him.)
A great argument from the article:
I think this is spot on. I mean, what does Jeter "do" that's special, which sets him apart from any other shortstop or veteran? And if there is a "right way" to approach or play the game is Jeter alone in doing so?
Another great line from the article:
Both played 20 years. Jeter ended up with an average 116 OPS+, and Biggio finished with 112.
Conversely, if Biggio had played in NY (and stayed at SS, and stayed out of the gossip pages), he probably would have been "Jeter."
In addition to the media markets in play, I think part of the media's infatuation with Jeter is the perception that he played clean during a time when a lot of star players weren't. The whisper campaign against guys like Biggio who never tested positive isn't fair, but nothing about how the media covers athletes is fair.
Brianish said:
Someone could. But I don't buy it at all. Elite players are all under a microscope. Even if some of the media is most interested in building and sustaining the legend (likely the ones with the most access and incentive to keep it), there are always others looking to tear it all down and make a name for themselves. There is always an element of adversarial media around. Which is good. When it comes to PEDs, I think any smidgeon of rumor or innuendo is eventually going to be reported by someone. And there is always rumor and innuendo swirling around about players. Sometimes it may even be true.
Over many years, Jeter has avoided that. That doesn't mean he has been clean, but I think the absence of rumor and innuendo maybe sticks out a bit to jaded sportswriters who have covered the game for a long time and have heard lots of things about players they've never been able to confirm, or, for the good reporters, write about.
In a way it kind of reminds me of the end of the Nolan Ryan era. Sportswriters--particularly his fellow boomers getting up there in age with him--portrayed him as this unassailable paragon of masculinity. Over 40, threw hard, beat dudes up on the mound, tossed no hitters, gave no shits, associated with Texas. No one went understatement when describing him, ever--and like Jeter, the vocal minority pointing out that maybe--just maybe!--he isn't as great as he's made out to be on the field were (especially when it first started) just openly laughed at. "No. If you 'get' baseball, you know why Nolan Ryan is god. Sounds like you don't get it, nerd."
Jeter is a bit more updated icon of masculinity. Has those old tropes of "strong," "silent," and has this blank presentation that plays well in the constant media cycle AND allows others to fill in all their own personal constructs of masculinity like how he just "gets it" and is just always there for his buddies and being calm and with all the answers etc etc. It's why the substance of what he does on or off the field doesn't matter, the moon bat response is just to find a reason why it's a godsend to humanity and work backwards.
"Just look at those... calm... eyes." It was like McCarver was overcome with his conditioned response, ready to just blurt out the most absurdly complimentary thing he could think of and had nothing at hand, so out that came. No one really noticed, what's the difference, he's amazing anyway, so he's sorta right!
Jeter is a bit more updated icon of masculinity. Has those old tropes of "strong," "silent," and has this blank presentation that plays well in the constant media cycle AND allows others to fill in all their own personal constructs of masculinity like how he just "gets it" and is just always there for his buddies and being calm and with all the answers etc etc. It's why the substance of what he does on or off the field doesn't matter, the moon bat response is just to find a reason why it's a godsend to humanity and work backwards.
"Just look at those... calm... eyes." It was like McCarver was overcome with his conditioned response, ready to just blurt out the most absurdly complimentary thing he could think of and had nothing at hand, so out that came. No one really noticed, what's the difference, he's amazing anyway, so he's sorta right!
JohntheBaptist said:
I think this is unfair to Ryan, though. For all his considerable faults, he was the most unhittable pitcher ever, and that translated fully to stats on the field (link spoiler: he's got the fewest hits/9 innings of any pitcher in MLB history, and the gap between him and #2 Kershaw is bigger than the gap between Kershaw and #10). As far as that cowboy mentality goes, his reputation was fully earned. He had enough other (some major) faults that he didn't wind up anywhere near the greatest ever discussion. But he was the greatest ever--by a wide margin--at one important part of the game, and it's fair to marvel over that.
Posnanski has a great article on him:
276th. That's amazing. Pos also points out that he is 2nd all time in wild pitches--#1 is Tony Mullane, who was born before the Lincoln administration. Ryan's 277 more than doubles Tim Wakefield's career total. And he was #1 all time in stolen bases given up (by a massive margin), and #1 in the live-ball era in errors committed.
At the same time, and this plays into the cult of Ryan, he did lead the majors in WHIP twice--and both times were in the 1990s. This from a guy who debuted in the majors 3 years before Woodstock.
Oh absolutely- didnt mean to compare them as players at all. More the reactions they drew from people.
Ryan was seen by some as unassailable as a pitcher until a minority of fans began to take interest in certain elements of his performance that suggested some flaws. That criticism was met- in my experience, admittedly- with the same type reaction as the ones shown for those who started wondering if Jeter was really such a great defensive player after all.
Ryan was seen by some as unassailable as a pitcher until a minority of fans began to take interest in certain elements of his performance that suggested some flaws. That criticism was met- in my experience, admittedly- with the same type reaction as the ones shown for those who started wondering if Jeter was really such a great defensive player after all.
Seems like Mets' management made a similar judgment on Nolan Ryan as a young and wild pitcher. They traded him away. He wasn't the polished pitcher that Seaver and Koosman were. They didn't get much in return. An aging Jim Fregosi, as I recall. He only became a legend as he got older and kept throwing hard. Jeter aged the way players used to age.