This is the best Red Sox team...ever.

joyofsox

empty, bleak
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Crazy to see that the only teams with a better player than Mookie Betts (by OPS+, which is year and league adjusted) are ‘46 Ted Williams and ‘67 Yaz.
Mookie has an 184 OPS+ right now ... only 6 Red Sox players have had a season with an OPS+ of 184 or higher.

Tris Speaker - 1912
Babe Ruth - 1918, 1919
Jimmie Foxx - 1939
Ted Williams - 1941, 1942, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1954, 1957
Carl Yastrzemski - 1967
Manny Ramirez - 2002
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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Mookie has an 184 OPS+ right now ... only 6 Red Sox players have had a season with an OPS+ of 184 or higher.

Tris Speaker - 1912
Babe Ruth - 1918, 1919
Jimmie Foxx - 1939
Ted Williams - 1941, 1942, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1954, 1957
Carl Yastrzemski - 1967
Manny Ramirez - 2002
Speaking of 1918, that's got to be the only year in history where someone led the league in both K and HR while batting in under 100 games?
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
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Sep 27, 2016
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Can't we all enjoy it and not debate? And of course wait and see how they finish of course.
The debate is us enjoying it. Remembering it. Gauging our feelings then and now. The day-to-day rising and falling, the cast of characters that's diverse but not a crowd... this is about as good as it gets as a baseball fan.

Debating minutiae related to the Red Sox is SoSH's raison d'etre. It's made me a better fan.
 

CanvasAlley

New Member
May 22, 2016
75
Los Angeles, CA
The debate is us enjoying it. Remembering it. Gauging our feelings then and now. The day-to-day rising and falling, the cast of characters that's diverse but not a crowd... this is about as good as it gets as a baseball fan.

Debating minutiae related to the Red Sox is SoSH's raison d'etre. It's made me a better fan.
This should be the tagline for this group as it encapsulates everything we are about! Great job!
 

AlNipper49

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In 2013, Clay was 12-1, 1.97 era, and the team went 14-2 in his starts. His post season was a mixed bag, but replace him with a .500 pitcher and maybe Tampa wins the division in 2013. He gets little enough glory around here, but he was a crucial part of 2013.
He’s pitching pretty well for the Diamondbacks this year : 4-0 2.17 ERA and averaging just over 8 k/9
 

joyofsox

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Speaking of 1918, that's got to be the only year in history where someone led the league in both K and HR while batting in under 100 games?
I would think so. The fact that they cut the 1918 season short by one month helped (even though Ruth did not hit any HR after July).

Ignoring the 100 games limit, Jake Stahl of the 1910 Red Sox led the AL in HR (10) and K (128).

And Gavvy Cravath:
1913 - Led NL in HR
1914 - Led NL in HR
1915 - Led NL in HR
1916 - Led NL in K
1917 - Led NL in HR
1918 - Led NL in HR
1919 - Led NL in HR
 

TFisNEXT

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We all loved 2013 because it came 2 years after the Sept. choke in 2011 and the Valentine disaster the next year. But we know that team was lightning in a bottle. Funny thing they probably easily win 100 games or more if Buchholz doesn't get injured and miss over two months. They won 97. I always felt bad for Buchholz. Wasn't ever the same. Did ok when he came back in reg. season and the post season but he never seemed to be the same. He was a top Cy Young candidate through late June.
In 2013, Clay was 12-1, 1.97 era, and the team went 14-2 in his starts. His post season was a mixed bag, but replace him with a .500 pitcher and maybe Tampa wins the division in 2013. He gets little enough glory around here, but he was a crucial part of 2013.
Clay Buchholz had one of the more underrated starts in Red Sox postseason history....game 4 at STL while the team was down 2 games to 1. They needed him to give them something and give them a chance to win and tie the series back up.

He clearly still wasn't 100% and had basically nothing...he was throwing 88-89mph fastballs. But he used a lot of his offspeed stuff and somehow gutted out 4 innings and giving up only 1 unearned run before he was lifted for Mike Carp as a pinch hitter and then Felix Doubront relieved him to start the 5th. Then Jonny Gomes hits the 3-run jack and then I think they used Lackey for an inning as a bridge to Koji.
 

Humphrey

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IMHO no question Buchholz going down in June 2011 wrecked that team more than anything.
Or, should I say, the front office banking on him returning and not acquiring some semblance of a starting pitcher did them in. My most torturous memories of 2011 are of seeing them wheel out Tim Wakefield (should have been dfad around the 4th of July), John Lackey (severely injured and should have been undergoing surgery) and Cooney Weiland game after game.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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IMHO no question Buchholz going down in June 2011 wrecked that team more than anything.
Or, should I say, the front office banking on him returning and not acquiring some semblance of a starting pitcher did them in. My most torturous memories of 2011 are of seeing them wheel out Tim Wakefield (should have been dfad around the 4th of July), John Lackey (severely injured and should have been undergoing surgery) and Cooney Weiland game after game.
But, but, but...Erik Bedard.

Yeah, you're right. A healthy Buchholz probably keeps that collapse from being complete, if not prevents it from occurring at all.
 

Spelunker

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IMHO no question Buchholz going down in June 2011 wrecked that team more than anything.
Or, should I say, the front office banking on him returning and not acquiring some semblance of a starting pitcher did them in. My most torturous memories of 2011 are of seeing them wheel out Tim Wakefield (should have been dfad around the 4th of July), John Lackey (severely injured and should have been undergoing surgery) and Cooney Weiland game after game.
I had to look this up.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He’s pitching pretty well for the Diamondbacks this year : 4-0 2.17 ERA and averaging just over 8 k/9
He's actually 5-1 / 2.68 ERA in 10 games (57 IP; 51 Ks; WHIP = 1.105) but your overall point stands.

I had no idea he was pitching in the big leagues still until I looked it up.

Kind of weird to me that Royals released him on May 1 after he pitched 16 minor league innings, giving up just 10 hits and 2 runs, with 9 strikeouts and 7 walks, including allowing just 1 run over 5 innings in his start before being released. Giving a guy a like Buchholz a chance to build some trade value and possibly get an asset out of it seems like a reasonable way to add to a team's talent base.
 

Reverend

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The debate is us enjoying it. Remembering it. Gauging our feelings then and now. The day-to-day rising and falling, the cast of characters that's diverse but not a crowd... this is about as good as it gets as a baseball fan.

Debating minutiae related to the Red Sox is SoSH's raison d'etre. It's made me a better fan.
If I'm ever in a "Is This the Greatest Awesome We've Ever Joyed in Now We Suck the Marrow from its Excellence" thread asking why people can't enjoy themselves, can someone PM me or have an Uber bring a Snickers over or a puppy or something?
 
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JMDurron

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Jul 15, 2005
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2011 gets a lot of play because of the collapse, but I think 2010 was my favorite team that never accomplished anything. It still feels like a shame to me that Adrian Beltre's insane "I don't suck, Seattle sucks!" season was completely wasted when an injury plague laid waste to the rest of the roster. Wakefield and Beckett both fell off of a cliff. Daniel Bard was the only good thing going on in the bullpen. Only 102 games of Youkilis, 75 games of Pedroia, Jed Lowrie as himself, a failed bet on Mike Cameron in CF leading to Darnell McDonald being the main CF, Ellsbury lost for the season, Big Papi with a less than normal Papi season, etc..

And yet...watching Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre in that dugout, with an offense that still managed to wheeze its way to the 2nd most runs in the AL behind those two was really enjoyable. I wish those two had gotten their own ring in Boston, and it would have completed the pattern of 3-year cycles of awesomeness all the way through 2013 to boot.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Team can use an OOGY at the August deadline, an Embree type, someone that can get the last out in the 8th so CK can come in with a clean inning.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
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Oct 31, 2013
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Yeah, this team has serious holes in the bullpen to patch up before it can be considered best ever.
 

joe dokes

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Yeah, this team has serious holes in the bullpen to patch up before it can be considered best ever.
If they win 120 games and the WS, they are the best ever even if Dick Radatz, Vaughn Eshelman, and Sammy Stewart are in the bullpen in October.
Or are we talking best roster ever?
 

uk_sox_fan

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Red Sox record for the earliest to get to +200 run diff is game 119 (1912 team). The 2018 edition is at +194 after 114 games so could set a new mark. Here's the season RD graph for this year vs 10 of the top Sox seasons by game number (not all-inclusive but tried to get the most significant ones):

Capture.PNG
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
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Jul 20, 2005
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Kimbrel is going to be a problem if he can't get his control back. He's throwing 37% of his pitches in the strike zone compared to around 45% over the rest of his career. It's clear that you can have success against him just going up there and taking pitches until he can get one over. I don't know if it was the lost spring or some injury he's had, but it's been the case all year long and hasn't shown any signs of getting better.
 

jaytftwofive

New Member
Jan 20, 2013
1,182
Drexel Hill Pa.
2011 gets a lot of play because of the collapse, but I think 2010 was my favorite team that never accomplished anything. It still feels like a shame to me that Adrian Beltre's insane "I don't suck, Seattle sucks!" season was completely wasted when an injury plague laid waste to the rest of the roster. Wakefield and Beckett both fell off of a cliff. Daniel Bard was the only good thing going on in the bullpen. Only 102 games of Youkilis, 75 games of Pedroia, Jed Lowrie as himself, a failed bet on Mike Cameron in CF leading to Darnell McDonald being the main CF, Ellsbury lost for the season, Big Papi with a less than normal Papi season, etc..

And yet...watching Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre in that dugout, with an offense that still managed to wheeze its way to the 2nd most runs in the AL behind those two was really enjoyable. I wish those two had gotten their own ring in Boston, and it would have completed the pattern of 3-year cycles of awesomeness all the way through 2013 to boot.
Didn't Pedoria miss time also? Wasn't it Beltre who injured Ellsbury and Jeremy Hermida. Bizzare! amazing how that team still managed 89 wins. One less then the 2011 disaster. Hindsight is 20/20 but obviously we should have kept Rizzo and Beltre and not made the trade for A-Gon and Crawford. I loved the 2006 team also because they played small ball and were not our fathers Red Sox.
 

jaytftwofive

New Member
Jan 20, 2013
1,182
Drexel Hill Pa.
2011 gets a lot of play because of the collapse, but I think 2010 was my favorite team that never accomplished anything. It still feels like a shame to me that Adrian Beltre's insane "I don't suck, Seattle sucks!" season was completely wasted when an injury plague laid waste to the rest of the roster. Wakefield and Beckett both fell off of a cliff. Daniel Bard was the only good thing going on in the bullpen. Only 102 games of Youkilis, 75 games of Pedroia, Jed Lowrie as himself, a failed bet on Mike Cameron in CF leading to Darnell McDonald being the main CF, Ellsbury lost for the season, Big Papi with a less than normal Papi season, etc..

And yet...watching Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre in that dugout, with an offense that still managed to wheeze its way to the 2nd most runs in the AL behind those two was really enjoyable. I wish those two had gotten their own ring in Boston, and it would have completed the pattern of 3-year cycles of awesomeness all the way through 2013 to boot.
Didn't Pedoria miss time also? Wasn't it Beltre who injured Ellsbury and Jeremy Hermida. Bizzare! amazing how that team still managed 89 wins. One less then the 2011 disaster. Hindsight is 20/20 but obviously we should have kept Rizzo and Beltre and not made the trade for A-Gon and Crawford. I loved the 2006 team also because they played small ball and were not our fathers Red Sox.
2011 gets a lot of play because of the collapse, but I think 2010 was my favorite team that never accomplished anything. It still feels like a shame to me that Adrian Beltre's insane "I don't suck, Seattle sucks!" season was completely wasted when an injury plague laid waste to the rest of the roster. Wakefield and Beckett both fell off of a cliff. Daniel Bard was the only good thing going on in the bullpen. Only 102 games of Youkilis, 75 games of Pedroia, Jed Lowrie as himself, a failed bet on Mike Cameron in CF leading to Darnell McDonald being the main CF, Ellsbury lost for the season, Big Papi with a less than normal Papi season, etc..

And yet...watching Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre in that dugout, with an offense that still managed to wheeze its way to the 2nd most runs in the AL behind those two was really enjoyable. I wish those two had gotten their own ring in Boston, and it would have completed the pattern of 3-year cycles of awesomeness all the way through 2013 to boot.
I stand corrected, I did see Pedroia out 75 games.
 

santadevil

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Just popping in here to give Sandy Leon some props for his play over the last couple games, both on defense and offense

Red Sox beat the Yankees 5-4 on Sunday
Sandy took a 1 out walk in the bottom of the 9th against Chapman, down 4-1 in the game
Bottom 10, tie game 4-4, hits a 2 out single to get on base, advances on the wild pitch, removed so Renda can pinch run and score the game winning run on Beni's single.

Yesterday, Leon makes the nice play on the slow roller by Maile, with the bases loaded on none away. Sox were down 2-1 in the bottom of the 6th and didn't allow a run that inning.
Hits a double in the top of the 8th, down 3-1, with 1 away. Moved to 3rd on Beni's single and scored on Moreland's groundout. Then JD went yard to put them up 5-3
Catching Maile's popup in front of home in the 10th right after Pillar went yard to make it 10-7. Sandy wanted that ball right away and went and got it.
 

trekfan55

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Didn't Pedoria miss time also? Wasn't it Beltre who injured Ellsbury and Jeremy Hermida. Bizzare! amazing how that team still managed 89 wins. One less then the 2011 disaster. Hindsight is 20/20 but obviously we should have kept Rizzo and Beltre and not made the trade for A-Gon and Crawford. I loved the 2006 team also because they played small ball and were not our fathers Red Sox.

I stand corrected, I did see Pedroia out 75 games.
And Buccholz having a good year was injured playing offense in Colorado.

Lots of things went wrong on that team.

I have always preached that the bolded was the correct move. Beltre signed a "make good" one year deal and proved not only his worth, but had immense chemistry with the team (breaking two players' ribs aside). Going forward with him and Youks on first until Rizzo was ready was the way to go. Crawford still is the worst signing ever made. Except the Dodgers took him and his salary off their hands in 2012. That does not usually happen.

This team, and the 2013 team has that "not quitting" quality. I am watching or following a game when they are down and I have that feeling that they will find a way to win. And also, they will make you pay for every little mistake. In their current 9-1 run, one game was won because of one misplay in the OF, and another because of bad throw (not routine but still makeable by a decent 3rd and 1st basemen). Yesterday Stroman is cruising, leaves in the 8th because of a blister, a good reliever comes in, and the Sox lead. The bullpen struggles, they put up a 5 spot vs Ken Giles (seriously what happened to him?).

This team is unbelievable.
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
12,704
I spent a lot of time in New York over the years, so I have a lot of friends that are Yankee fans. So for me the best part of this team has been the looks of abject defeat on the faces of my MFY fan friends after they spent all spring lording about the MFYs pending 120 win season only to have their hopes crushed over the weekend.
 

m0ckduck

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Jul 20, 2005
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2011 gets a lot of play because of the collapse, but I think 2010 was my favorite team that never accomplished anything. It still feels like a shame to me that Adrian Beltre's insane "I don't suck, Seattle sucks!" season was completely wasted when an injury plague laid waste to the rest of the roster. Wakefield and Beckett both fell off of a cliff. Daniel Bard was the only good thing going on in the bullpen. Only 102 games of Youkilis, 75 games of Pedroia, Jed Lowrie as himself, a failed bet on Mike Cameron in CF leading to Darnell McDonald being the main CF, Ellsbury lost for the season, Big Papi with a less than normal Papi season, etc..

And yet...watching Victor Martinez and Adrian Beltre in that dugout, with an offense that still managed to wheeze its way to the 2nd most runs in the AL behind those two was really enjoyable. I wish those two had gotten their own ring in Boston, and it would have completed the pattern of 3-year cycles of awesomeness all the way through 2013 to boot.
I've been saying for a while on this board that the 2010 team was the great/forgotten/snake-bitten team of the John Henry era. According to this analysis, they lost 9.1 wins to injury, which ranks them as the 7th "most injured" team between 2010 and 2017. In addition to all the high-profile injuries recounted in this thread, I remember a point where the top four catchers in the organization were all hurt at the same time. Just an awful cacophony of injuries.

I also think that the injuries themselves changed the direction of the franchise. That off-season was viewed as a challenging "retooling" process (remember: "retool", not "rebuild") and Theo Epstein invested a lot of his credibility within the organization on the idea that defense and pitching were new market inefficiencies (e.g. Mike Cameron). At the same time, the organization was obviously freaked out by the burgeoning popularity of the Patriots and Celtics. Had the Red Sox made the playoffs, Epstein might have been given more rope to execute his long-term plan for the franchise. As it happened, the FO reacted by trading assets for Adrian Gonzalez, spending big money on Carl Crawford, and Epstein was gone after the next off-season.

Was it worth it? 2010 spun us out into an alternate, volatile thread of the omniverse where 2013 and 2018 happened, but so did Bobby Valentine and a string of last-place finishes.
 

InstaFace

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Sep 27, 2016
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Red Sox record for the earliest to get to +200 run diff is game 119 (1912 team). The 2018 edition is at +194 after 114 games so could set a new mark. Here's the season RD graph for this year vs 10 of the top Sox seasons by game number (not all-inclusive but tried to get the most significant ones):

View attachment 22503
Wow, awesome chart! My main takeaway (other than reinforcing the fact that Gump's management of the 2002 team was even more stupefyingly criminal than the ALCS the next year) is that while we talk about the 2004 team going "beast mode" starting mid-august, the 1949 team was a league-average team for the first 1/3 of the way through the season (even below-average at points), and then they went on a legendary tear - a run differential of over +2.2 runs per game for the last 100+ games of the season. That pace (though not the full-season number) must rival even some of the great Yankees teams.

All this talk of the late 1940s red sox sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole, and I came across this SABR biography of Denny Galehouse. Some good stories in there, particularly about his "sunday pitcher" service in 1944.
 

Sampo Gida

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Well, the season isn't over yet. The 2011 team went 70-33 after a rough start when the wheels fell off . The 1978 team went 62-28 to start and went nowhere.

Factor in the fact this might be the weakest AL in over 40 years.

The 1-4 hitters are as good if not better than any Red Sox team and if Price is right (and Sale healthy knock in wood) 1-3 in the rotation is the best in Red Sox history.

The bullpen and bottom half of the order are not at the same level. I think balance in the order and a strong pen may be more important in the post season than regular season. Might be why Billy Beanes teams never did well in the post season (missing one or the other).

So far so good , but like in 1978 we are probably going to have to get past the Yankees (in the LDS) to win it all. We caught them at a good time last week so dont read too much into that.

That said if it ends well and we win 100+ Games I am prepared to vote for the 2018 team. Still a ways to go though
 

santadevil

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Well, the season isn't over yet. The 2011 team went 70-33 after a rough start when the wheels fell off . The 1978 team went 62-28 to start and went nowhere.

Factor in the fact this might be the weakest AL in over 40 years.

The 1-4 hitters are as good if not better than any Red Sox team and if Price is right (and Sale healthy knock in wood) 1-3 in the rotation is the best in Red Sox history.

The bullpen and bottom half of the order are not at the same level. I think balance in the order and a strong pen may be more important in the post season than regular season. Might be why Billy Beanes teams never did well in the post season (missing one or the other).

So far so good , but like in 1978 we are probably going to have to get past the Yankees (in the LDS) to win it all. We caught them at a good time last week so dont read too much into that.

That said if it ends well and we win 100+ Games I am prepared to vote for the 2018 team. Still a ways to go though
You're always a glass half-empty kind of poster, aren't you?
Something is always lurking around the corner, the wheels are about to fall off and that once in 20,000 year earthquake is imminent
Tough way to live man

Also, to the bolded, if they go 19-28 the rest of the way, will you still say 2018?
Because I do know that will leave a lot of us feeling not awesome going into the postseason

I'm here to enjoy the ride and posts like yours really bring a negative feeling to the board and don't make me look forward to clicking into the thread
 

Spelunker

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You're always a glass half-empty kind of poster, aren't you?
Something is always lurking around the corner, the wheels are about to fall off and that once in 20,000 year earthquake is imminent
Tough way to live man

Also, to the bolded, if they go 19-28 the rest of the way, will you still say 2018?
Because I do know that will leave a lot of us feeling not awesome going into the postseason

I'm here to enjoy the ride and posts like yours really bring a negative feeling to the board and don't make me look forward to clicking into the thread
That might be the best backhanded shorthand for how awesome this season is: just 100 wins would be a massive disappointment, and would leave us all nervous going into the postseason.

That's... crazy.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
You're always a glass half-empty kind of poster, aren't you?
Something is always lurking around the corner, the wheels are about to fall off and that once in 20,000 year earthquake is imminent
Tough way to live man
As someone whose brain tends to work that way, I can testify that it's not tough at all. It means that when things go right you have the luxury of adding pleasant surprise to satisfaction, and when things go wrong you at least never have to feel sucker-punched.

And while I don't know how old you are, anyone who was a Sox fan between 1978 and 2003 certainly earned the right to feel that "something is always lurking around the corner." The past 15 years have allowed many of us to put that feeling mostly in the rearview mirror, but vestiges of it inevitably surface now and then.
 
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m0ckduck

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Jul 20, 2005
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The 1-4 hitters are as good if not better than any Red Sox team and if Price is right (and Sale healthy knock in wood) 1-3 in the rotation is the best in Red Sox history.
This is not to be nitpicky— just some interesting historical comparisons:

Starter / ERA+
2018
Sale - 216
Porcello - 115
Price - 112

2002
Martinez - 202
Lowe - 177
Wakefield - 162

1999
Martinez - 243
Saberhagen - 171
Rapp (!) - 122

1990
Clemens - 211
Boddicker - 122
Bolton - 121

Edit: filtering out guys who were injured at seasons' end (e.g. Buchholz in 2013) and focusing on starters who threw at least 100 IP.
 
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millionthcustomer

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Just for fun - here are the past Red Sox teams (since 1908) that had fewer wins for the season than this team has so far (81, as of August 8th):

1908
1910-11
1913
1918* (won WS)
1919-37
1943-45
1952
1954
1956-58
1981* (strike-shortened season)
1983
1985
1987
1992-93
1994* (strike-shortened season)
1997
2012
2014-15

I'll keep updating as the season goes on.
 

Hank Scorpio

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Too bad we can't flip our final series with the Rays later this month with our series against the Blue Jays in September.

Doing so might line us up where we have the prestigious honor of being the team to eliminate the Orioles, Jays, Rays, and Yankees. It looks like we'll finish up with the Rays too soon, and the Jays too late. The Yankees are still in play, however.
 

grimshaw

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Factor in the fact this might be the weakest AL in over 40 years.
The AL Central is the god awful division and they have played their "worst" baseball against them, a .636 winning percentage. And they haven't even played Cleveland yet.

If you want to argue opponents, then you can point to their 19-16 record vs playoff caliber teams but the AL blanket statement is misleading.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The AL Central is the god awful division and they have played their "worst" baseball against them, a .636 winning percentage. And they haven't even played Cleveland yet.

If you want to argue opponents, then you can point to their 19-16 record vs playoff caliber teams but the AL blanket statement is misleading.
The Royals and Whitesox have been winning games of late too, granted they are still on pace for well over 100 losses. OTOH, the Whitesox have been awful of late and are back on pace to lose 100 as well. It's also definitely not the weakest the AL has been in over 40 years.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2002-standings.shtml