The Welker Hit on Talib
- Thread starter Van Everyman
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At full speed, it really looks like Thomas is going to plow into Welker before Thomas changes direction. Talib following and the speed of the play I think were going to make contact inevitable. Whether it was designed that way or not (I think it obviously is), Welker then took the opportunity to deliver a hit. Should have been called, but I don't think it was quite as dirty as the slo mo makes out.
Weird play though, by having Welker set the pick there are no other blockers - I guess you rely on Thomas to break the initial tackle? It was thrown well short of the first down line and Thomas had to come back to the ball to even try and make a play on it.
Weird play though, by having Welker set the pick there are no other blockers - I guess you rely on Thomas to break the initial tackle? It was thrown well short of the first down line and Thomas had to come back to the ball to even try and make a play on it.
I agree except for the injure part. This was Welker trying to set a tone on his own. It wasn't some sweep the leg type call from Fox.Yaz4Ever said:
Yeah... trying to figure out if it's dirty or not is tough. But kind of in a hockey sort of analogy it seems like charging in that sport. Welker sees Talib coming and basically launches himself into him. I think that's the difference between a normal pick play and what Welker did. Welker is looking to hit Talib from a completely blind side and doesn't care if the ball has gotten to the receiver or not. Talib is not expecting at all to get hit in that situation pretty much ever.glennhoffmania said:
Full disclosure: I'm in a post-season fantasy league and stand to win $450 if I win. The only real threat has Welker (I don't) and I have three players he doesn't have. If Welker is out and completely overmatched in the game, I winNortheasternPJ said:
It was a dirty hit, but I don't want his career ended.No use whining over this in my opinion. I think Belichick was upset at Denver's pick play not being called while the Patriots' pick play was. Brady even said earlier than it seems other teams don't get called for it but the Patriots do. On top of that, he was probably very upset it injured his top CB which altered the game dramatically (just like last year). And the icing on the cake was that it was Welker who he clearly has some resentment for.
Edit: And my opinion is that if the result were not an injury, there'd be no talk about this. In the offseason, I do think offensive pick plays are going to be something coaches bring up with the competition committee.
Edit: And my opinion is that if the result were not an injury, there'd be no talk about this. In the offseason, I do think offensive pick plays are going to be something coaches bring up with the competition committee.
Yaz4Ever said:Full disclosure: I'm in a post-season fantasy league and stand to win $450 if I win. The only real threat has Welker (I don't) and I have three players he doesn't have. If Welker is out and completely overmatched in the game, I win
Cool story.
triniSox said:
They should, not sure if they will. Its an easy way to level the playing field a bit without compromising player safety.
Hoping Welker gets hurt or calling that play intent to injure is pretty ridicuous from my standpoint, but to each his own
.
Let's review the facts:
-- A Patriots player got injured
-- The Patriots lost
-- Bill Belichick says so
Yup, must be a dirty play.
-- A Patriots player got injured
-- The Patriots lost
-- Bill Belichick says so
Yup, must be a dirty play.
I think Welker was trying to make a statement block and that it was OPI, but just barely. For people saying Talib was away from the play, I can't agree. He was running towards the direction of the intended receiver, and I think that's a legitimate block had it occurred after the catch. Illegal? Yes. Dirty? I don't think so and, really, some of the blame has to be on Talib himself. It wasn't a blindside or late hit, it's his job to avoid Welker.
I didn't see this mentioned, but remember this in the first:
3rd and 10 at DEN 33
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle to A.Collie to DEN 25 for 8 yards (T.Carter). DEN-D.R-Cromartie was injured during the play. PENALTY on NE-M.Hoomanawanui, Offensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at DEN 33 - No Play
This was the Simms "pillow fight" play, if I remember correctly. Hoo-Manwas running across the middle and grazed another Bronco. I thought the penalty shouldn't have been called, but isn't this what Welker did but far more intentionally?
3rd and 10 at DEN 33
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle to A.Collie to DEN 25 for 8 yards (T.Carter). DEN-D.R-Cromartie was injured during the play. PENALTY on NE-M.Hoomanawanui, Offensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at DEN 33 - No Play
This was the Simms "pillow fight" play, if I remember correctly. Hoo-Manwas running across the middle and grazed another Bronco. I thought the penalty shouldn't have been called, but isn't this what Welker did but far more intentionally?
It's not a dirty hit. If Welker hits Talib a split second later, it's a good block.
But I don't get Pereira's point at all -- Welker clearly hits Talib before Thomas touches the ball, and I don't think "not catchable" is a defense to OPI (clearly, Talib had no chance of making a play on the ball), so it seems like OPI to me. That said, it was a very close call, and officials are trained not to throw a flag when in doubt, so the no-call isn't surprising.
But I don't get Pereira's point at all -- Welker clearly hits Talib before Thomas touches the ball, and I don't think "not catchable" is a defense to OPI (clearly, Talib had no chance of making a play on the ball), so it seems like OPI to me. That said, it was a very close call, and officials are trained not to throw a flag when in doubt, so the no-call isn't surprising.
I don't think it was Welker's intent to take him out of the game, that's a hard motive to assign to someone no matter what feelings existed, but Wes' "we just kind of collided" defense is complete crap. It was an illegal pick, he went out there to hit Talib and launched into him. Whoever's call it was, they had a 5'9" guy make the pick because the refs are less likely to call it live during the game when a smaller guy commits a foul against a much bigger guy. I don't think Wes gets fined more than a pittance, certainly not suspened. But if Bill calling this out does not else it makes it a lot less likely Wes tries this again in the Bowl, because someone's going to be watching for it.
If it's legal, they need to totally teach the Pats recievers that move. (Esp Gronk). That would help alot next year I think.
OPI for sure and frustrating that it was not called right after the Hooman OPI which was much less blatant. But I can't get behind the "dirty play" stuff. It was a pick play and that's what Denver does (and to be fair, the Pats do too, although it seems like Denver does it more often than most other teams).
Honestly I am more disappointed that Talib was injured on the play because collisions like that are going to happen in football (intentionally or unintentionally) and his inability to stay on the field in a conference championship game for the 2nd year in a row killed us. The guy is supremely talented but he can't stay healthy.
BB calling out Welker is out of character for sure but I would chalk it up to (a) frustration on the part of Bill, and (b) bad blood between him and Wes. People like to think of Belichick as a robot coach with no emotions or some kind of evil mastermind, but he's human and I think a combination of those two factors caused him to speak out uncharacteristically.
Honestly I am more disappointed that Talib was injured on the play because collisions like that are going to happen in football (intentionally or unintentionally) and his inability to stay on the field in a conference championship game for the 2nd year in a row killed us. The guy is supremely talented but he can't stay healthy.
BB calling out Welker is out of character for sure but I would chalk it up to (a) frustration on the part of Bill, and (b) bad blood between him and Wes. People like to think of Belichick as a robot coach with no emotions or some kind of evil mastermind, but he's human and I think a combination of those two factors caused him to speak out uncharacteristically.
The only reason people are calling it dirty is because he went at Talib lower than most pick plays. While I think it was a cheap shot, I am more concerned with it not being called a penalty than the dirtiness of it.Ralphwiggum said:
I'm conflicted.
Seeing the gif, I don't think it was any different that the OPI on the Pats. Call both, or call neither ... especially after McCourt wasn't called on the endzone play earlier.
That said, Denver was clearly of a mind to establish a tone, as evidenced on DR-C's hard, legal hit on Edelman on the first play of the game. Welker wasn't going to be limited to just a brush-type rub to disrupt Talib's timing.
But intent to injure? No. And BB's remarks seem more of a carryover from acrimony between him and Welker than anything else.
I could see the NFL saying it should have been called a penalty, but there shouldn't be a fine
Seeing the gif, I don't think it was any different that the OPI on the Pats. Call both, or call neither ... especially after McCourt wasn't called on the endzone play earlier.
That said, Denver was clearly of a mind to establish a tone, as evidenced on DR-C's hard, legal hit on Edelman on the first play of the game. Welker wasn't going to be limited to just a brush-type rub to disrupt Talib's timing.
But intent to injure? No. And BB's remarks seem more of a carryover from acrimony between him and Welker than anything else.
I could see the NFL saying it should have been called a penalty, but there shouldn't be a fine
I agree with the overall tenor of you post, but multiple people are saying he went low and Im wondering what Im missing because he looks like he hit pretty high to me.RedOctober3829 said:
http://imgur.com/zhokmIW
Ralphwiggum said:
He hit him square.
My issue is that if any LB/CB did that to a WR they'd be flagged. I don't see how a CB is different than a WR. Half the time, they're smaller than the WR's and not expecting a hit.
I see shoulder to shoulder and then Welker sliding down across Talib's left leg/knee. Welker is small as football players go, but there was a lot of kinetic energy imparted from both of them because of them moving at probably their maximum speed or close to it. That's football.Ralphwiggum said:
I just got back from lunch and this play was being shown on ESPN over and over, with Mortenson and someone else talking about it. No idea what the discussion was, but something was being said.
You know, it's entirely possible to think something was a bad call against the Patriots without being a homer but I know some people think it gives them some sort of cachet to rage against the multitude of Patriots fanboys.
It doesn't.
You know, it's entirely possible to think something was a bad call against the Patriots without being a homer but I know some people think it gives them some sort of cachet to rage against the multitude of Patriots fanboys.
It doesn't.
I think Belichick is right to lash out at the non-call over the Welker hit. I recall the link posted last week that explained the rules for offensive pass interference and pick plays, that block should have been called OPI based on the rules in that article.
Remember, it worked for Bill Poilan a few years ago. There's no downside whatsoever for Bill making those statements; the Ron Borges's and Mike Francesca's of the world will still hate him no matter what he says.
Remember, it worked for Bill Poilan a few years ago. There's no downside whatsoever for Bill making those statements; the Ron Borges's and Mike Francesca's of the world will still hate him no matter what he says.
Stitch01 said:
Looks to me like what happens when a 5'9" tall guy hits a 6'1" guy. Welker's shoulder is going to come in lower than Talib's. Welker rotated his head and shoulders to his left at impact, basically ducking his head away.
You also can consider Welker's legs hit Talib's about the same time as the upper bodies hit, that means Welker was running upright, not leaning forward which you're more likely to do if you're aiming to deliver a blow.
Could make some jokes about Hines Ward and the hatred for Welker being such a reversal from when he was a Patriot, but not much point other than entertainment.
Watching the second .gif (the one that starts from the time the ball is hiked) I don't think Welker was doing anything more than trying to set a pick/block and he runs into Talib. For one, he doesn't lower his shoulder or brace for impact until the last possible second, and he doesn't really get low enough to make a powerful impact. He puts his shoulder into Talib's shoulder (who I think did see Welker coming, you see him brace as well) and falls over because Talib is just stronger.
IMO, if he was going in to injure on purpose he would have lowered himself more and exploded into it. I think it was just bad luck for Talib.
IMO, if he was going in to injure on purpose he would have lowered himself more and exploded into it. I think it was just bad luck for Talib.
IMO, there's a pretty big difference between talking about it being a bad call and suggesting Welker tried to take out Talib, should be suspended, and hopefully gets injured the next game. Frustration is understandable today, but this subject isnt shaping up as SOSH's finest hour.DrewDawg said:
Dogman2 said:
I actually respect the fact that he admits he wasn't trying to get open, implying that he was absolutely trying to pick Talib. It was obvious, so if he tried to claim differently it would be clear b.s.
While it is entirely possible that Welker was trying to take Talib out of the game (that stuff does happen, after all), I think the Occom's razor view is that he was trying to run a pick - a play that every team runs every week - got a little too physical with it and the play went bad. Well, not bad for Denver since it wasn't flagged (should have been, IMO), but not the way it was intended.
Stitch01 said:
I fully agree which is one of the things wrong with the NFL.
The other thing that comes to mind is the Pats got flagged for the pushing play on the NYJ field goal attempt due to player safety concerns, yet when a RB is running and 8 offensive players push him for 5 yards with 5 defensive players pushing him the other way, there's no concern of player safety. The player safety shit is completely arbitrary.
I thought it was uncharacteristic for a Denver pick play, in that Welker basically dove into Talib, whereas usually their picks are less obviously OPI because the routes are tightly choreographed. I think diving into Talib made it a borderline dirty play, though I think the intention was to set the tone rather than to injure.Ralphwiggum said:
SWHB said:
I'm not seeing him diving in at all, and I think the distinction is important in this thread because diving in would be EXTREMELY dirty and means there is reason to think he intended to injure.
Goodell is an obvious clown and the competition committee is, most generously, mediocre, so not a shocking result. Jeff Fisher opining on player safety issues is particularly hilarious.NortheasternPJ said:
Chairman: Rich McKay (Atlanta Falcons)
- Jeff Fisher (St. Louis Rams)
- Stephen Jones (Dallas Cowboys)
- Marvin Lewis (Cincinnati Bengals)
- John Mara (New York Giants)
- Mark Murphy (Green Bay Packers)
- Ozzie Newsome (Baltimore Ravens)
- Rick Smith (Houston Texans)
- Mike Tomlin (Pittsburgh Steelers)
The more I watch it the 'dirtier' it gets. Welker plants at the 25 1/2 yard marker and kind of launches his shoulder at Talib at the 25. Demaryius is watching Welker the whole way (which makes it obvious it was a designed play) and he has to kind of avoid Welker flying in at the last second, which probably lead to the incompletion. He doesn't get his head around until the ball is basically on him. Though I fully admit I've never watched a pick play this many times to see if
a. the receiver is watching the other receiver until the last second to make sure their paths are right next to each other, almost colliding themselves.
b. the reciever setting the pick has the corner lined up right from the offset and goes out of his way to 'launch' back towards him.
It's almost like Thomas took his initial route a half a yard too far so both he and Welker had to redirect their routes at the last second. If Welker wasn't the smallest guy on the field, therefore taking the brunt of the hit, I think it may be seen as dirtier.
a. the receiver is watching the other receiver until the last second to make sure their paths are right next to each other, almost colliding themselves.
b. the reciever setting the pick has the corner lined up right from the offset and goes out of his way to 'launch' back towards him.
It's almost like Thomas took his initial route a half a yard too far so both he and Welker had to redirect their routes at the last second. If Welker wasn't the smallest guy on the field, therefore taking the brunt of the hit, I think it may be seen as dirtier.
Zomp said:
As I mentioned in my post above it looks like he plants at the 25 1/2 yard line, and 'dives or launches' (though slightly) back at Talib at the 25.
Like I said in the game thread, and what some others here have stated: it should have been a penalty, but I wouldn't call it a "dirty" play. I think it's a leap to suggest Welker was taking a cheap shot or trying to injure.
I can't help but think that played into Belichick going public with his remarks. I think Welker's post-game comments probably pissed off Belichick even more. Wes is clearly full of shit when he says "we just kind of collided" and that he wasn't "trying to hit him." He was blatantly running a pick and went out of his way to be physical about it. I don't think that makes it dirty, but it certainly wasn't incidental contact like Welker makes it sound like.
Devizier said:
I can't help but think that played into Belichick going public with his remarks. I think Welker's post-game comments probably pissed off Belichick even more. Wes is clearly full of shit when he says "we just kind of collided" and that he wasn't "trying to hit him." He was blatantly running a pick and went out of his way to be physical about it. I don't think that makes it dirty, but it certainly wasn't incidental contact like Welker makes it sound like.
Also this is pretty obvious screenshot on if it should have been a penalty or not.
And also pretty obvious that Welker initially went shoulder to shoulder, or slightly lower because of the height difference. As for OPI, it was a split second early and certainly not some egregious miss by the refs. Still OPI though.
And also pretty obvious that Welker initially went shoulder to shoulder, or slightly lower because of the height difference. As for OPI, it was a split second early and certainly not some egregious miss by the refs. Still OPI though.
I don't know the specifics on it, but did Welker hit Talib on the same side he had the bad hip flexor that kept him out half the season? I doubt Welker's intent was to hurt Talib, nor do I think Denver coached their players to try and take someone out, but I wonder about stuff like that. Players know full well when a guy's got a sore spot or a lingering injury and will often go after it, knowing it'll be an easier block, tackle, etc.
glennhoffmania said:
It's only an egregious miss because of the Hooman call. Refs have to be consistent.
It was OPI in my opinion and should have been called, but I can't believe that Welker intended to potentially injure Talib.
I'm also 100 percent convinced that if the situation had been reversed and a Patriot took out a key Broncos player and NE won, the outrage about cheating and dirty play from the Patriots would be much louder.
I'm also 100 percent convinced that if the situation had been reversed and a Patriot took out a key Broncos player and NE won, the outrage about cheating and dirty play from the Patriots would be much louder.
I don't think Welker had the intent to injure Talib, but I do think Welker was trying to send a message, if that makes sense.
Maybe Belichick just wanted to make a bigger deal out of this, so that it drew some media attention, and in turn, possibly the NFL makes the assigned refs to the Super Bowl take extra notice for any type of illegal pick plays against the Seahawks. One last F-U.
Maybe Belichick just wanted to make a bigger deal out of this, so that it drew some media attention, and in turn, possibly the NFL makes the assigned refs to the Super Bowl take extra notice for any type of illegal pick plays against the Seahawks. One last F-U.
glennhoffmania said:
It was OPI and it should have been called and it's fucking bullshit in the wake of the Hooman call. And it's hardly like Denver never picks, they pick all the goddamn time.
Egregious miss by the refs. That's an obivous penalty.
CoffeeNerdness said:
Its football ... people hurl their bodies into each other.
Look at that still a couple of posts above this reply ... doesnt look much like a hurling of a body IMHO
I still believe there should have been an OPI call on that play but the intent to injure isn there ...