The Welker Hit on Talib

[Norm Siebern]

Demaryus Thomas:
 
When asked if Welker’s hit sent a message to the Patriots, Thomas said, “I don’t know if it was a message. It was kind of a pick play. It was a big collision and it knocked him out of the game. The main thing was to come out and play physical as a whole group and that’s what we did.’’
 
I would think that would settle the argument? 

 

[Stitch01]

Did anyone argue it wasn't either a pick play or a play designed for Welker to block Talib to free Thomas?

 

[dbn]

Are people suggesting that the Hooman block shouldn't have been called? I can't find video of it but remember thinking it was clearly OPI when watching Sunday.

 

[Norm Siebern]

Did anyone argue it wasn't either a pick play or a play designed for Welker to block Talib to free Thomas?

 
Yes, a number of people have. Including Welker himself.

 

[DJnVa]

 
Yes, a number of people have. Including Welker himself.

 
He did?  Welker said it was designed to get Talib to go around....that's a pick play.

 

[DJnVa]

Are people suggesting that the Hooman block shouldn't have been called? I can't find video of it but remember thinking it was clearly OPI when watching Sunday.

 
I think the suggestion is more that if that play is called, then this one should have been as well.

 

[Stitch01]

Yes, a number of people have. Including Welker himself.

Must have missed those, but they were clearly wrong

 

[dbn]

 
Yes, a number of people have. Including Welker himself.

 
Quoth the Welker:  “It was one of those plays where it’s kind of a rough play and I was trying to get him to go over the top ..." That's what a pick play is. Football pick plays are designed to not have contact, just to force the DB to take a roundabout route when covering a WR in man.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I hate (or love) to do this, but...
 
This is another one of those situations where the injury was caused by the NFL. They've allowed wide receivers to get away with more and more. The pick play has been around forever, but it's become so prevalent that shit like this is going to happen.
 
Wide receivers know that they can get away with interference. When Welker came out and basically said, "My role was to get him to go over the pick", what he was really saying was, "I can run wherever I want and the defense better get the fuck out of my way".
 
This isn't a knock on the Broncos or Wes Welker. If the league is going to let you do it, then you do it. But in the rush to create more points and allow the offense to get away with murder, we're seeing players pay the price. Defenders going low and exploding onto the knee, defensive backs getting rocked while the ball is still in the air. It's becoming a war zone on every play. The NFL thought they were protecting players by allowing offenses to do whatever they want, but it's making it more dangerous every game.

 

[dbn]

 
I think the suggestion is more that if that play is called, then this one should have been as well.

 
Yah I get that but that logic only makes sense if they were equally close to being or not being a penalty. Unless my memory is wrong (it might be, which is why I'm asking) the Hoo block was clearly before the catch was made, while the Welker play was much closer. (For the record, I think that the Welker play should have drawn a flag.) It'd be like saying because a Lester pitch 2 feet off the plate was called a ball that a Sabathia pitch that was pretty borderline alsohas to be called a ball.

 

[Norm Siebern]

Did anyone argue it wasn't either a pick play or a play designed for Welker to block Talib to free Thomas?

 
As I said, a number of people have made his claim, including you:
 
 
Stitch01, on 20 Jan 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

It looks pretty clear Welker is trying to block and gets there early.  Should have been a flag, but he's not headhunting or going for knees or anything.
 
http://imgur.com/zhokmIW

 
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/81438-afc-championship-game-pats-broncos/page-67#entry5223510

 

[Stitch01]

I don't think you are reading my posts. They don't contradict each other

 

[Norm Siebern]

I don't think you are reading my posts. They don't contradict each other

 
If that is the case then I misread them and apologize.  I did read your posts, however. You indicate that Welker was attempting a block, and got there early. Thomas says it was not designed that way, it was a designed pick. Again if I am misreading what you wrote, then I apologize.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

 
Quoth the Welker:  “It was one of those plays where it’s kind of a rough play and I was trying to get him to go over the top ..." That's what a pick play is. Football pick plays are designed to not have contact, just to force the DB to take a roundabout route when covering a WR in man.

 
So Welker's defense is he's trying to commit offensive pass interference? That's a great defense. Welker's goal wasn't to run a route to catch a pass, but over 1 yard past the LOS his goal was to interfere with a CB covering a WR. 
 
If he just said "I thought he had caught the ball and threw a block" then that'd at least be reasonable. 

 

[redsahx]

Yesterday I laughed at the assertion that Welker intended to injure Talib. After seeing the replay, and hearing about Welker's comments to the team Saturday night about needing to get more physical, it looks a little more suspicious. Still I have to go with him just trying to be physical and the injury being an unfortunate result.

In any case this settles the question as to whether or not Belichick and Welker dislike each other.

 

[Stitch01]

Yeah I guess I'm lost why the distinction between a block and a pick play matters, which is why I lumped them together. He clearly wasn't running a route, but rather was trying to impede Talib. He got there early and should have been flagged for OPI either way. To me it looked like Welker was blocking, its believable he was running a pick play and ended up collided with Talib instead.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Yeah I guess I'm lost why the distinction between a block and a pick play matters, which is why I lumped them together. He clearly wasn't running a route, but rather was trying to impede Talib. He got there early and should have been flagged for OPI either way. To me it looked like Welker was blocking, its believable he was running a pick play and ended up collided with Talib instead.

 
He wasn't running a route, he threw a block before the ball was caught and it was a hard hit. Talib didn't see it coming and Welker laid him out. 
 
You're naive if you can't see the difference between a guy expecting a hit after a catch (block), a typical pick play (Hooman-ish) and what Welker did.
 
I don't think Welker's hit was really dirty and he was trying to hurt him. It was a guy trying to set the tone, did it illegally by mistake, and ended up hurting someone. 
 
If Talib did that to him and he was concussed and out of the Super Bowl imagine the outrage.

 

[Tony C]

And also pretty obvious that Welker initially went shoulder to shoulder, or slightly lower because of the height difference. As for OPI, it was a split second early and certainly not some egregious miss by the refs. Still OPI though.

 

Demaryus Thomas:
 
When asked if Welker’s hit sent a message to the Patriots, Thomas said, “I don’t know if it was a message. It was kind of a pick play. It was a big collision and it knocked him out of the game. The main thing was to come out and play physical as a whole group and that’s what we did.’’
 
I would think that would settle the argument? 

 
Boy, it's surprising he would be as blatant about it as that but, yeah, anyone arguing it wasn't intended to be a "physical" or "rough" play is on thin ice after that statement.

 

[Stitch01]

 
I don't think Welker's hit was really dirty and he was trying to hurt him. It was a guy trying to set the tone, did it illegally by mistake, and ended up hurting someone. 
 .

Yeah that seems right.

 

[dbn]

 
So Welker's defense is he's trying to commit offensive pass interference? That's a great defense. Welker's goal wasn't to run a route to catch a pass, but over 1 yard past the LOS his goal was to interfere with a CB covering a WR. 
 
If he just said "I thought he had caught the ball and threw a block" then that'd at least be reasonable. 

 
C'mon, it's been well discussed in this forum as well as in the media that every team in the NFL - including the Patriots - makes use of what the announcers have taken to calling a "legal pick". Welker's "defense" was that this is what he was attempting to do. If the play had been flagged, and he then was asked about it afterwards I imagine he'd say pretty much the same thing except to add "... but I messed it up and would up with a OPI."

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Lock the thread. Woody Paige says it's a legit play since Thomas had already caught the ball (which he didn't) and the Pats did the same thing on the previous series (which they didn't).

 

[RoyHobbs]

Maybe what Welker did is beside the point. Maybe this is BB's way of getting the conversation about officiating started. The season was a shitshow. Inconsistency is driving fans mad, as KFP points out above players seem to actually be made less safe by rules, arbitrariness seems to happen again and again/game by game, etc.
 
If he wants to use his soapbox kind of like Polian did, fine with me, because the league feels kind of out of control at this point.

 

[Norm Siebern]

 
C'mon, it's been well discussed in this forum as well as in the media that every team in the NFL - including the Patriots - makes use of what the announcers have taken to calling a "legal pick". Welker's "defense" was that this is what he was attempting to do. If the play had been flagged, and he then was asked about it afterwards I imagine he'd say pretty much the same thing except to add "... but I messed it up and would up with a OPI."

Two things: First, it is not a "legal pick." A legal pick occurs within a few yards of the Line of Scrimmage. This play occurred ten yards downfield. Secondly, if "every team" incororates this illegal play (which is correct, every team does), then why do only a few teams get flagged for it? Why do so many not?  

 

[lexrageorge]

There was an article linked in the AFCCG pregame thread about pick plays.  A legal pick can only happen within 1 yard of the LOS, or after the receiver catches the ball (in which case it's a block).  Unintentional contact is OK.  The Welker block had none of those characteristics, so it should have been flagged.  
 
Again, there was a consistency issue; the officials were letting the defenders be a bit physical (Jim Nantz seemed outraged about this during Denver's first drive when he was screaming for a flag on McCourty).  Then they flagged Hooman for giving the defender a dirty look.  Then they let the Welker play go unflagged.  Belichick should be screaming.  

 

[dbn]

Two things: First, it is not a "legal pick." A legal pick occurs within a few yards of the Line of Scrimmage. This play occurred ten yards downfield. Secondly, if "every team" incororates this illegal play (which is correct, every team does), then why do only a few teams get flagged for it? Why do so many not?  

 
Perhaps in normal the usage of the term, but the rules do not specify anything about where the "pick" (a term which does not appear in the rule book in this sense) happens.* A "pick" is indeed legal, unless it involves illegal blocking (which requires an actual "block" involving contact.)
 
*Note that there are some restrictions that do depend on the distance within the LOS one can block, but they are not directly relevant to this discussion.

 

[dbn]

There was an article linked in the AFCCG pregame thread about pick plays.  A legal pick can only happen within 1 yard of the LOS, or after the receiver catches the ball (in which case it's a block).  Unintentional contact is OK.  The Welker block had none of those characteristics, so it should have been flagged.  
 
Again, there was a consistency issue; the officials were letting the defenders be a bit physical (Jim Nantz seemed outraged about this during Denver's first drive when he was screaming for a flag on McCourty).  Then they flagged Hooman for giving the defender a dirty look.  Then they let the Welker play go unflagged.  Belichick should be screaming.  

 
I'm not sure this is true but will double-check.
 
[edit because my brain isn't working as well as normal today - may have to do with all the alchohol I took in after the game ended]

 

[dbn]

Note that I believe the Welker play was OPI because he blocked beyond 1 yd of the LOS in the vicinity of the intended receiver which, by the note to Article 4 of Section 5 of Rule 8, is illegal.
 

[SIZE=9.5px]Article 4 Other Prohibited Acts By the Offense. [/SIZE]Blocking more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage by an
offensive player prior to a pass being thrown is offensive pass interference.
Note: It is also pass interference by the offense to block a defender beyond the line while the pass is in the air, if the block
occurs in the vicinity of the player to whom the pass is thrown.
 

 
My involvement here is to make clear that what Welker claims he was trying to do - make Talib go around him - is indeed perfectly legal and done all the time.

 

[teezy]

Does anyone have video of the Hoo-man OPI?

 

[RedOctober3829]

Note that I believe the Welker play was OPI because he blocked beyond 1 yd of the LOS in the vicinity of the intended receiver which, by the note to Article 4 of Section 5 of Rule 8, is illegal.
 
 
My involvement here is to make clear that what Welker claims he was trying to do - make Talib go around him - is indeed perfectly legal and done all the time.

Except he didnt do what he intended. It wasn't unintentional as any intelligent fan could see he ran straight at him and blocked Talib from doing his job.

If a defender gets flagged for contact before the ball gets there then the offensive player should get flagged for what Welker did intentional or not. DPI is called all the time for unintentional contact.

 

[smastroyin]

Yes, people are confusing what others mean by "pick"
 
dbn and others are calling the act of forcing a defensive player to take a circuitous route to the receiver they are covering a "pick" even though there is usually no contact.  This is indeed legal and the Patriots among others do it all the time (many times, Welker himself was freed up by other Patriots setting "picks").  Announcers also tend to call these picks, especially if there is incidental contact.  Probably though the name for this should be screen.  In basketball the two terms are equivalent but in football it would give some clarity to have them separate.  
 
Norm and others seem to be calling any contact by the offensive player intended to disrupt the defensive player a "pick" whether or not it was a set screen before contact or not.
 
stitch is also bringing in the possibility that Welker knew the ball wasn't coming to him and he intended to block.  At full speed, this makes some sense, if Manning had delivered the ball half a second earlier, it's a legal block.  I do think however that the most likely explanation is that it was a screen, and when Talib didn't change course Welker decided to "send a message" or whatever about being physical, with the hopes that it would go uncalled (since the ball was so close) or that the ball would be delivered on time and it would be a legal block.  Since he initiated the contact it should have been OPI.  
 
I think that literally the only person mentioned here even arguing that it shouldn't be OPI was Peirrera.  And he's not here to argue with.

 

[lars10]

And also pretty obvious that Welker initially went shoulder to shoulder, or slightly lower because of the height difference. As for OPI, it was a split second early and certainly not some egregious miss by the refs. Still OPI though.

Welker is not standing upright and you can see Talib's entire shoulder… he's not trying to go shoulder to shoulder…he's trying to throw a block mid body.

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
He wasn't running a route, he threw a block before the ball was caught and it was a hard hit. Talib didn't see it coming and Welker laid him out. 
 
You're naive if you can't see the difference between a guy expecting a hit after a catch (block), a typical pick play (Hooman-ish) and what Welker did.
 
I don't think Welker's hit was really dirty and he was trying to hurt him. It was a guy trying to set the tone, did it illegally by mistake, and ended up hurting someone. 
 
If Talib did that to him and he was concussed and out of the Super Bowl imagine the outrage.

 
 
I think that covers it.

 

[SoxFanInCali]

Welker is not standing upright and you can see Talib's entire shoulder… he's not trying to go shoulder to shoulder…he's trying to throw a block mid body.

Welker is 5'9". Talib is 6'1".
 
In addition, when throwing a block, you try to get lower that the guy you are blocking to get leverage.  He's trying to get his shoulder into Talib's chest.  This is a good, clean blocking technique.
 
If Welker had done this after Thomas caught the ball, it's a textbook block.  The fact he did it slightly before the catch makes it OPI, but doesn't make it a dirty play.

 

[dbn]

Yes, people are confusing what others mean by "pick"
 
(snip)

 
Exactly and it is my fault for bringing it into the discussion.  It's unnecessary because there already exist terms for "legal pick" (a crossing route) and an "illegal pick" (illegal downfield block).
 

Except he didnt do what he intended. It wasn't unintentional as any intelligent fan could see he ran straight at him and blocked Talib from doing his job.

If a defender gets flagged for contact before the ball gets there then the offensive player should get flagged for what Welker did intentional or not. DPI is called all the time for unintentional contact.

 
Look, all that I'm saying is that Welker's explanation of what he tried to do does not describe an illegal play. There was confusion earlier in the thread about whether or not what "trying to get him to go above me" (or whatever the exact quote was) was legal or not.

 

[LoneWarrior1]

Watching Comcast Sports Net and they just played a montage about Welker. During the bit, there's audio of Zolak's reaction to Talib going down and he says something along the lines of "This is the second time he's done that today." Does anyone have any idea of when Welker did it the first time?

 

[genoasalami]

They lost. Denver was the better team. We can analyze this particular play for weeks, but at the end of the day, it was a play that perhaps deserved a flag for OPI. So what? I do not see anything in the replay that indicated an intent to injure. Let's give the Pats 15 yards and the first down. They would still lose.

 

[Super Nomario]

It should have been flagged for OPI, but I get why it wasn't. It sucks that Talib got hurt on that, but it's football. It wasn't that dissimilar from Kyle Love decleating a dude on an INT return or Mark LeVoir destroying a DB on a screen, both of which were widely re-posted here. 

 

[lars10]

Welker is 5'9". Talib is 6'1".
 
In addition, when throwing a block, you try to get lower that the guy you are blocking to get leverage.  He's trying to get his shoulder into Talib's chest.  This is a good, clean blocking technique.
 
If Welker had done this after Thomas caught the ball, it's a textbook block.  The fact he did it slightly before the catch makes it OPI, but doesn't make it a dirty play.

that's the point…people keep saying Welker is trying to go shoulder to shoulder and I'm disagreeing.

 

[dbn]

I think we are all, or at least mostly, in agreement that it was OPI. It is still interesting to speculate on what the intention of the play was.  I can see a few possibilities:
 
A. It was designed that way and they hoped he'd get away with it. ("Hey, I was just running my route; he ran into me!")  If that is the case it was a poorly designed play because with routes that flat no one would believe the intention was other than to block Talib. 
 
B. It was intended to be a legal crossing route but Welker didn't execute it well, realized he was about to smash into Talib, and braced himself. This seems to be the explanation suggested by the Welker quotes earlier in the thread. If this was the case it again was a poorly designed play because it'd be hard to successfully and legally execute the purpose of a crossing route with the routes that flat.
 
C. It was intended that Welker block Talib after the catch but the timing was just barely off. This would be a reasonable explanation except that, if this was how the play was designed, I don't know why Welker wouldn't had said so.
 
I suspect that it was somewhere in the gray area between A and B. Maybe Welker's intent to show toughness (or whatever it was that he said) contributed to his leaning it closer to A than B.

 

[lars10]

They lost. Denver was the better team. We can analyze this particular play for weeks, but at the end of the day, it was a play that perhaps deserved a flag for OPI. So what? I do not see anything in the replay that indicated an intent to injure. Let's give the Pats 15 yards and the first down. They would still lose.

Because it changes the entire game?
Just like Hooman getting called for a 10 yard penalty that took the Pats out of field goal range this should have been a 10-15 yard penalty.
And obviously nobody knows intent here, but Talib getting taken out by an illegal hit destroys the secondary and how they match up.  It totally changes coverage and how open Thomas was the rest of the game.  
 
With that said I still think Denver probably wins.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

They lost. Denver was the better team. We can analyze this particular play for weeks, but at the end of the day, it was a play that perhaps deserved a flag for OPI. So what? I do not see anything in the replay that indicated an intent to injure. Let's give the Pats 15 yards and the first down. They would still lose.

There's actually an interesting rules discussion going on here, if you'd care to engage with the topic in a meaningful way.

 

[dbn]

They lost. Denver was the better team. We can analyze this particular play for weeks, but at the end of the day, it was a play that perhaps deserved a flag for OPI. So what? I do not see anything in the replay that indicated an intent to injure. Let's give the Pats 15 yards and the first down. They would still lose.

 
 

Because it changes the entire game?
Just like Hooman getting called for a 10 yard penalty that took the Pats out of field goal range this should have been a 10-15 yard penalty.
And obviously nobody knows intent here, but Talib getting taken out by an illegal hit destroys the secondary and how they match up.  It totally changes coverage and how open Thomas was the rest of the game.  
 
With that said I still think Denver probably wins.

 
And even if it didn't, it was an important play with a lot of interesting subtext to it: former player, reportedly on the outs with the opposing coach, NE's best defensive player gets hurt (for the second consecutive AFC championship game). Some people like to discuss interesting things.

 

[Stitch01]

that's the point…people keep saying Welker is trying to go shoulder to shoulder and I'm disagreeing.

Wherever he's trying to hit him, its in the clean area above the waist and below the head

 

[wibi]

There's actually an interesting rules discussion going on here, if you'd care to engage with the topic in a meaningful way.

 
There is?  Everyone in this thread (minus one or two) agree that there should have been a foul called.  There are some that believe that there is a personal foul with an intent to injure in that play but the majority seem to realize that the play was run poorly by Welker and he should have been called for OPI.  Those who believe Welker was trying to injure him havent even shown the slightest proof that Welker was trying to hit Talib in a place that would have caused him an injury.  If he had gone for a below the waist shot I could easily be convinced but right now the fact that Talib got hurt is an unfortunate by-product of the play not the intent of the play.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I think we are all, or at least mostly, in agreement that it was OPI. It is still interesting to speculate on what the intention of the play was.  I can see a few possibilities:
 
A. It was designed that way and they hoped he'd get away with it. ("Hey, I was just running my route; he ran into me!")  If that is the case it was a poorly designed play because with routes that flat no one would believe the intention was other than to block Talib. 
 
B. It was intended to be a legal crossing route but Welker didn't execute it well, realized he was about to smash into Talib, and braced himself. This seems to be the explanation suggested by the Welker quotes earlier in the thread. If this was the case it again was a poorly designed play because it'd be hard to successfully and legally execute the purpose of a crossing route with the routes that flat.
 
C. It was intended that Welker block Talib after the catch but the timing was just barely off. This would be a reasonable explanation except that, if this was how the play was designed, I don't know why Welker wouldn't had said so.
 
I suspect that it was somewhere in the gray area between A and B. Maybe Welker's intent to show toughness (or whatever it was that he said) contributed to his leaning it closer to A than B.

 
Two things seems clear to me on the replay.  First, Welker wasn't running much of a route himself.  He doesn't look back at the QB at any point, even after the ball is in the air, and then adjusts his trajectory to initiate the contact with Talib.  He never seems at all bothered by the possibility that the ball might be coming to him, despite not looking back, so I've got to assume that him getting targeted wasn't drawn into the play.  Second, there would be no way to draw up that play with the design being that Welker smashed into the DB, because the timing would have to be too perfect.  Welker isn't tracking the football, he maybe has some sense that the ball is in the air but he can't be confident that he's hitting Talib after its caught.
 
So my conclusion is that it was a play drawn up for Thomas in which Welker's job was to get in the way of Talib and maybe create a tiny bit of incidental contact and he basically improvised on the spur of the moment and decided to lay Talib out to make a statement. I don't think he tried to hurt him but I don't believe for a second that he didn't try to hit him.

 

[ShaneTrot]

Well one thing is for sure the big DBs for Seattle will be on the lookout for this. LIve by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[genoasalami]

There's actually an interesting rules discussion going on here, if you'd care to engage with the topic in a meaningful way.

 
 
Huh? Must have missed that. Like most people here. I believe that OPI should have been called. Give the pats 15 yards and a first down. They still lose the game. There is absolutely nothing on the tape that shows Welker was trying to hurt Talib. Denver was the far superior team Sunday. They shut down the running game and dared Brady to beat them by throwing to Edelman. Even when he was wide open for a huge gain he overthrew him. They went as far as they were going to go with this squad. Simple as that.

 

[Oil Can Dan]

The ball was late or Welker was early. So, flag should have been thrown.

If the ball is a split second quicker or Welker is a split second later, that's a heck of a block.

Surprise Belichick said what he said on it.

 

[Stitch01]

15 yards and a first down? Huh? The Pats were on defense there Brick Tamland.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

The ball was late or Welker was early. So, flag should have been thrown.

If the ball is a split second quicker or Welker is a split second later, that's a heck of a block.

Surprise Belichick said what he said on it.

 
This is where I am. For Bill to come out say he thought it was dirty, speaks volumes to me. Not sure if it's sour grapes with Wes or what.