The Welker Hit on Talib

[PedroKsBambino]

Had Welker not dropped his shoulder that would be a reasonable description of the play; but, he did.
 
Two observations:
 
First, I think there's confusion here and in quotes people pull between 'intent to create contact' an 'intent to injure'.   It's really hard to argue the first didn't exist, but it's quite reasonable to suggest the second did not.
 
Second, it is interesting that  several DBs have sided with Talib and WRs with Welker, though.

 

[OCST]

I'm amazed that this discussion has gone so long.
 
I'm neither a Patriots fan nor a hater.  I shade toward rooting for the Patriots because I have so many friends who are Patriots fans, including many here.
 
But this is reminding me of the Gronk thread - a Patriots guy got hit, and got hurt, and now There Is Evidence Of A Serious Problem In The Game Of Football.  Which would not be happening here, even a little bit, if Talib played for the Jags or the Rams or the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.  I understand that BB said what he said, but he's way out over his skis on this one.
 
It's football.  Guys hit each other. 
 
FFS.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I'm amazed that this discussion has gone so long.
 
I'm neither a Patriots fan nor a hater.  I shade toward rooting for the Patriots because I have so many friends who are Patriots fans, including many here.
 
But this is reminding me of the Gronk thread - a Patriots guy got hit, and got hurt, and now There Is Evidence Of A Serious Problem In The Game Of Football.  Which would not be happening here, even a little bit, if Talib played for the Jags or the Rams or the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.  I understand that BB said what he said, but he's way out over his skis on this one.
 
It's football.  Guys hit each other. 
 
FFS.

It's not about Talib's injury.  It's the fact the play was offensive pass interference and should have been called a penalty.

 

[Stitch01]

I'm amazed that this discussion has gone so long.
 
I'm neither a Patriots fan nor a hater.  I shade toward rooting for the Patriots because I have so many friends who are Patriots fans, including many here.
 
But this is reminding me of the Gronk thread - a Patriots guy got hit, and got hurt, and now There Is Evidence Of A Serious Problem In The Game Of Football.  Which would not be happening here, even a little bit, if Talib played for the Jags or the Rams or the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.  I understand that BB said what he said, but he's way out over his skis on this one.
 
It's football.  Guys hit each other. 
 
FFS.

I agree with you on both plays, I think there's much less of a case for change here than on the Gronk hit.There is at least a player safety argument for not allowing the hit on Gronk, here I dont know what the heck the rule change would even be.  If the Welker hit is early its supposed to be PI, if the hitis  after the ball is caught its a block, so not sure what rule can be changed.

 

[86spike]

I'm amazed that this discussion has gone so long.
 
I'm neither a Patriots fan nor a hater.  I shade toward rooting for the Patriots because I have so many friends who are Patriots fans, including many here.
 
But this is reminding me of the Gronk thread - a Patriots guy got hit, and got hurt, and now There Is Evidence Of A Serious Problem In The Game Of Football.  Which would not be happening here, even a little bit, if Talib played for the Jags or the Rams or the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.  I understand that BB said what he said, but he's way out over his skis on this one.
 
It's football.  Guys hit each other. 
 
FFS.

 
Could not agree more.
 
And I want to be clear that I am trying to come at this without letting my Broncos fandom interfere.  I just think this is a tough play and it's too bad Talib got hurt on it.  Rub/Mesh/Pick routes are a huge part of successful passing attacks now and this one just went wrong.  Assigning any kind of mal intent seems like a huge stretch and BB has been rightly criticized for his comments.

 

[OCST]

It's the fact the play was offensive pass interference and should have been called a penalty.

 
Maybe so.  I wouldn't have had a problem with an OPI call.  I also don't really have a problem with the non-call.  If you asked me to put in on a scale of 0 to 100, with 100 being an absolute must-call, and 0 being a total non-call, I'd put it at around a 70.  Should have been a call, but it's hardly the worst non-call ever.  IMO.
 
Let's say for the sake of argument that it should have been OPI.  One 10-yard penalty over the course of a whole game.  Do we really need 250+ posts to get there?  I mean, I get that we're passionate and obsessive, and posting about it beats doing work at quarter-of-beer on a Friday afternoon. But really?
 

 
It's not about Talib's injury.

 
Sure it is.  The original post in the thread said:
 

 
At the time I was livid about the hit and the fact that it wasn't called. I really felt that the injury to Talib really opened up the Denver passing game. But I'm willing to be of open mind here.

 
Many other posts along the same lines in the thread.
 
If Talib shakes it off, we're not talking about this.  But because Talib got hurt, it's an issue. 
 
People have even invoked the dreaded phrase "launching"  (posts #15 and #25, probably more), which, to read this thread and the Gronk thread, is SoSH-speak for "a play on which a Patriot gets hurt."
 
Fans are passionate.  This year was very frustrating for Patriots fans because the team came within one game of the Super Bowl despite a terrible run of injuries.  No one likes to see one of their guys get hurt.  Let's talk about the play, because why not.  I understand all of that, but to go from there to say that the Welker hit on Talib is A PROBLEM is going too far.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I think a part of the argument against this type of hit is because if the defensive player hit an offensive player like that before the ball got there it's a penalty.  So why not the other way around?

 

[Stitch01]

I think a part of the argument against this type of hit is because if the defensive player hit an offensive player like that before the ball got there it's a penalty.  So why not the other way around?

It is a penalty for offensive pass interference by rule.  The league says its no penalty because they hit was basically simultaneous.

 

[lars10]

It is a penalty for offensive pass interference by rule.  The league says its no penalty because they hit was basically simultaneous.

Other than it wasn't simultaneous. I look forward to all the basically simultaneous hits that aren't called DPI next year... What bothers me is that the NFL is making up rules after the fact to explain why a penalty wasn't called. Welker's hit and the play on Gronk against Carolina are penalties and the NFL telling me they aren't makes me question consistency and what actually is a penalty anymore.

 

[Stitch01]

It was real close to simultaneous.  I think it was a penalty by rule, but its not one that's worth bitching about nine days after being beaten soundly.
 
The Carolina call was correct. The jobbing against the Jets was the only true complaint the Pats had against the refs this year.  On balance Id say the refs were probably worth somwhere between -0.1 and -0.2 wins for the Pats this year.  Nothing egregious.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

It was real close to simultaneous.  I think it was a penalty by rule, but its not one that's worth bitching about nine days after being beaten soundly.
 
The Carolina call was correct. The jobbing against the Jets was the only true complaint the Pats had against the refs this year.  On balance Id say the refs were probably worth somwhere between -0.1 and -0.2 wins for the Pats this year.  Nothing egregious.

 
You're fucking kidding me, right?

 

[TSC]

 

[Stitch01]

No.  I didnt have a problem with that (non) call.
 
EDIT: Shouldnt have brought it up, just a little frustrated with the complaints about the refs when I dont think it was a big factor this year.  If you are interested (and there's no reason you would be) I posted a bunch why that call didnt bother me at the time.

 

[ivanvamp]

It was real close to simultaneous.  I think it was a penalty by rule, but its not one that's worth bitching about nine days after being beaten soundly.
 
The Carolina call was correct. The jobbing against the Jets was the only true complaint the Pats had against the refs this year.  On balance Id say the refs were probably worth somwhere between -0.1 and -0.2 wins for the Pats this year.  Nothing egregious.

 
The Carolina call wasn't correct in any way.  It was PI all the way.  Sports Science even showed how Gronk absolutely could have gotten to that ball had Kuechly not WRAPPED HIM UP IN A HUG AND PUSHED HIM FOUR YARDS BACK.  
 
Just for reminder's sake:
 

 
I mean, good grief.  If a guy has his back to the ball, and is BEARHUGGING and PUSHING A GUY AWAY FROM THE BALL, and that is NOT a pass interference penalty, then there is no such thing as pass interference.

 

[Stitch01]

Ive obviously seen the play 100 times.  I remain 100% unbothered by the non-call.

 

[jsinger121]

Ive obviously seen the play 100 times.  I remain 100% unbothered by the non-call.

 
Your the only one then. That play should be called 100 times out of 100.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Ive obviously seen the play 100 times.  I remain 100% unbothered by the non-call.

 
Bully for you. Your life is definitely more fulfilling than mine.
 
It was a penalty and should have been called and the league fucked it up and it probably cost the Pats the game. Next.

 

[ivanvamp]

Ive obviously seen the play 100 times.  I remain 100% unbothered by the non-call.

 
This is absolutely fascinating.  Why do you think it wasn't PI?  Again, to review:
 
1.  Kuechly's back was to the ball.  No play on the ball whatsoever.
2.  Actually wraps Gronk up in a bear hug, both arms around Gronk, pinning Gronk's arms to his side.
3.  Pushes Gronk 4 yards towards the back of the end zone, preventing Gronk from being able to get back to the ball.
4.  The contact was while the ball was in the air (so no defensive holding or illegal contact, but PI).
5.  It has been proven scientifically that Gronk could have gotten back to the ball.
 
So how is that NOT pass interference?

 

[Stitch01]

I apologize for bringing up the Carolina game again.

 

[ivanvamp]

 
Bully for you. Your life is definitely more fulfilling than mine.
 
It was a penalty and should have been called and the league fucked it up and it probably cost the Pats the game. Next.

 
Not just the game.  But if the Pats finish 13-3 they get HFA, and are probably in the Super Bowl right now.  

 

[Bongorific]

 
Not just the game.  But if the Pats finish 13-3 they get HFA, and are probably in the Super Bowl right now.  

Bingo. That's what sucks the most about the call.

A lot of games could have gone either way this year so it's hard to place blame for the #2 rather #1 seed just on that call. Pats could have easily been a wild card team. Still, what could have been...

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Ive obviously seen the play 100 times.  I remain 100% unbothered by the non-call.

 
This puts your other comments on officiating in the appropriate light, then.  

 

[ivanvamp]

Probably? The Pats got their asses handed to them by Denver. Play that game in Foxboro and it's still a 50/50 proposition. That Carolina call sure did suck but it didn't rob the Pats of a SB appearance.

 
I say "probably" because (1) the Patriots beat Denver in New England, (2) Peyton got *perfect* weather in Denver in the AFCCG, and (3) Talib may not get injured.  
 
Put it this way:  you have to like NE's chances better if that game is played in 25 degree and windy Foxboro instead of 60 degree and perfect Denver.  Right?

 

[Brohamer of the Gods]

Well and the fact that even if the penalty is called, New England still would have had to score a touchdown from the 1 yard line.

 

[RedOctober3829]

The Carolina non-call was the most egregious non-penalty I've ever seen.  How you can bear hug a player while the ball is in the air and not get called for it is unbelievable.

 

[Morning Woodhead]

The Carolina non-call was the most egregious non-penalty I've ever seen.  How you can bear hug a player while the ball is in the air and not get called for it is unbelievable.

 
This.  And to get back to Lars10 and his original point, the fact that the NFL reviewed it, and declared "no penalty" is the worst part.  The lack of consistency in calls has the potential to turn the NFL into the NBA.  Just look at the "Calvin Johnson rule" which officials screw up a few times a year. 
 
In defense of the officials, they were MUCH better in the postseason, and I think the quality of games was increased because of that.