The Welker Hit on Talib

Boston Brawler · Jan 20, 2014

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZQU8nrtyL4[/media]

Stitch01 · Jan 20, 2014

http://imgur.com/zhokmIW

DaughtersofDougMirabelli · Jan 20, 2014

Boston Brawler said:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZQU8nrtyL4[/media]

soxfan121 · Jan 20, 2014

I agree with Jim Leonhard - it was a dirty play and Welker should be suspended for it. Defensive players face enough challenges with the rules; having an offensive player line them up, take aim, and blast them from a blind angle will create more injuries, head trauma and difficulty defending the pass.

And did CBS show a replay? They certainly did not emphasize it as the key play it was - taking out the Pats best CB certainly made things easier for Denver's passing game.

Morning Woodhead · Jan 20, 2014

To me, it wasn't dirty in the sense that he was headhunting or going low, but he clearly meant to make a "statement hit" on Talib. 2 guys running at each other that fast, it's going to be ugly.

Worst part is, if Talib initiates the contact on Welker, thats a 15 yard penalty 100% of the time. For some reason, it's cool for the WR to do it though.

riboflav · Jan 20, 2014

NFL rules continue to baffle me. Until yesterday, I thought it was illegal to do what Welker did - that is, hit a defender (esp. one not even involved in the play) as the ball approaches or arrives at the receiver. I thought the rule was that the offensive player can hit or block after the ball is caught. But, according to Mike P., the hit was legal because Welker made contact at "about the same time" the ball arrived to the receiver.

So I guess the hit wasn't illegal, after all.

Stitch01 · Jan 20, 2014

Welker isnt even going to get fined. We are losing our damn minds if we think that was a suspendable offense.

What was Denver's thought process here. "Hey, we want to take Talib out of the game. Lets send our 5'9 receiver with lots of concussion problems and run at his midsection"?

EDIT: I think Pereira was wrong, contact was early, should have been OPI

Sausage in Section 17 · Jan 20, 2014

If Stitch's gif is the play he got hurt on, then there's nothing to see there. Clean football hit, not really even OPI. Every team sets pick plays like that, and while some get called, I don't think this one should have been, as the ball seems to arrive right as or even slightly before Welker lays his lick on Talib.

teddykgb · Jan 20, 2014

I don't think it was particularly dirty. The play is undoubtedly designed for him to essentially crack back on the corner who is coming over the middle. Against a man coverage this would really release the pass catcher and could lead to a huge play. The issue, imo, is that the timing was wrong and he blocked before the ball was caught, which is a definite penalty. The ball being in the air also likely leads to Talib not anticipating the hit as much.

For me at least, this was much more irritating because they had just called such a ticky tack OPI on the previous drive, killing momentum. The juxtaposition with this play became very hard to treat rationally.

Tony C · Jan 20, 2014

reposted from other thread:

Personally I'm glad he called out Welker. Welker has always been a putz, and given that the announcers said virtually nothing about what was, at a minimum, an illegal play, it's nice to have that out there as part of the public record.

I have to love people getting upset about Richard Sherman -- "I've never seen anything worse" -- when you have illegal hits causing injury (New Orleans vs Harvin, this one vs Talib) which are bad sportsmanship that have a huge impact on taking skill players out. Somehow that's okay but a guy making a choke sign is the end of the universe?

edit: just going thru the Seahawks thread and saw this posted by Gdiguy, which more wittily summarizes my thoughts:

Quote

Pablo Torres who writes for ESPN the Magazine and contributes to NPR and what not has the best take:

Richard Sherman needs to understand that I signed up to watch a bunch of people get brutally injured, not yell at each other.

DJnVa · Jan 20, 2014

Clean football hit, not really even OPI

In the first gif, when you see Talib/Welker, there's already been contact. The ball hasn't gotten to the WR yet because you see it bounce off his chest.

Every team sets pick plays like that

Most pick plays don't have that level of contact. They are set more so the defense has to slow down or go around a guy, like Welker said.

I was trying to get him to go over the top ...

smastroyin · Jan 20, 2014

Was Pereira really saying it was legal, or just that it is never going to be called because it is too close to the point of the catch, where receivers can engage DBs all they like?

I think Stitch is right, it should have been called OPI by the rules. But I also agree that that particular one isn't typically called unless it's egregious.

Also, I think you guys watch too much hockey. Because fining Welker for that hit is the Brendan Shanahan "punish based on the result" justice.

riboflav · Jan 20, 2014

smastroyin said:
Was Pereira really saying it was legal, or just that it is never going to be called because it is too close to the point of the catch, where receivers can engage DBs all they like?

I think Stitch is right, it should have been called OPI by the rules. But I also agree that that particular one isn't typically called unless it's egregious.

Also, I think you guys watch too much hockey. Because fining Welker for that hit is the Brendan Shanahan "punish based on the result" justice.

Mike P. wrote, "That is not a foul.... Can't be OPI."

Reardon's Beard · Jan 20, 2014

If Talib blasts Welker we all know it's a major story and probably a flag.

Then if the Patriots win it's a national story for two weeks.

glennhoffmania · Jan 20, 2014

Stitch01 said:
Welker isnt even going to get fined. We are losing our damn minds if we think that was a suspendable offense.

What was Denver's thought process here. "Hey, we want to take Talib out of the game. Lets send our 5'9 receiver with lots of concussion problems and run at his midsection"?

EDIT: I think Pereira was wrong, contact was early, should have been OPI

Agree 100%. This is overreaction by fans (and the coach). Seriously, they're going to ask the smallest guy on the field who is just getting over a concussion to take out a DB? It may have been OPI, but that's the best case scenario for the Pats there.

Al Zarilla · Jan 20, 2014

Sausage in Section 17 said:
If Stitch's gif is the play he got hurt on, then there's nothing to see there. Clean football hit, not really even OPI. Every team sets pick plays like that, and while some get called, I don't think this one should have been, as the ball seems to arrive right as or even slightly before Welker lays his lick on Talib.

Welker's right shoulder and arm hits Talib's left shoulder and arm, Talib goes down on his back and injures ribs? I'm generally all behind Belichick with what he says, but there's not much there. If Talib were a Jets players, what would be said about him here?

DJnVa · Jan 20, 2014

Yeah, there's no fine or suspension coming. I think BB is just a bit upset and frustrated and there's nothing wrong with that. This had to be a trying season.

It's one thing to coach up a team that simply doesn't have a lot of talent--that can be "fun" and challenging for a coach. But when you are dealing with injury after injury, and then another happens to one of the worst possible people at the worst possible time, and that upsets pretty much your entire defensive game plan, well, it's going to suck.

Dave Stapleton · Jan 20, 2014

I really didn't think much of this until after the game when I was watching the post game coverage of the Seattle game. I can't remember if it was Fox or NFL network but there was a discussion about how the reporter spoke to a Denver coach who said that they needed to play NFC brand of football against Seattle and play physical. The reporter then told a story about how the Denver players told her that leading up to the Pats game Welker was emphasizing how Denver needed to set the tone and be really physical. I may be creating my own reality but there may have also been discussion about setting the tone early.

Supposedly Welker then showed the team a video with violent hits by Denver during the season.

Maybe I am reading into it but this does make me think that there was possible some intention here and trying to "set the tone".

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Jan 20, 2014

I don't see Welker getting disciplined for this but I think the idea that he was just trying to make Talib go over the top is bullshit. He goes out of his way to initiate the contact.

Dogman · Jan 20, 2014

Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
I don't see Welker getting disciplined for this but I think the idea that he was just trying to make Talib go over the top is bullshit. He goes out of his way to initiate the contact.

He clearly admits he wasn't trying to get open. That alone should tell us all we need to know about the contact.

I agree with BB. It was dirty.

gmogmo · Jan 20, 2014

glennhoffmania said:
Agree 100%. This is overreaction by fans (and the coach). Seriously, they're going to ask the smallest guy on the field who is just getting over a concussion to take out a DB? It may have been OPI, but that's the best case scenario for the Pats there.

I think it's pretty obvious a major reason Belichick called him out on this was to show Talib he had his back as he enters free agency, surprised more people aren't looking at it from that angle.

Hendu for Kutch · Jan 20, 2014

I think if the Hooman play doesn't get called, this isn't nearly as big a deal. But to call one of the softest OPI penalties I've ever seen, taking the team out of FG range and then turn around and let that go is inexcusable.

Norm Siebern · Jan 20, 2014

I am reposting this from another thread:

Welker has been very public re. his dislike of Belichick and his own leaving the Patriots. I am not surprised that Belichick responded in this manner. Belichick is human too, and that it was Welker who delivered the hit certainly factors into his response.

Personally, I think it was a dirty play as well. Watch it yourself. Welker levels his shoulders and basically launches into Talib, before the ball is touched by Thomas. It was clearly OPI, and should have been flagged. It caught Talib completely defenseless. It is not the worst play I have ever seen, but if Belichick says it is, considering his life in football, then I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That it completely changed the game there is no arguing. It did. It changed that drive, for one thing, and it freed Thomas from Talib the rest of the game, forcing Dennard away from his previous responsibilities as well. If Talib had stayed in, would that have fixed the line of scimmage problems on both sides of the ball for the Patriots? Probably not, but it did change the game.

Having said all that, it was an illegal play to begin with. But no one will ever pay attention to that now. That it was a dirty play makes it that much harder to stomach. Belichick's response is understandable and I believe justified.

Reardon's Beard · Jan 20, 2014

If Bill Belichick says it in public you can damn well bet there's fire to the smoke.

Jer · Jan 20, 2014

gmogmo said:
I think it's pretty obvious a major reason Belichick called him out on this was to show Talib he had his back as he enters free agency, surprised more people aren't looking at it from that angle.

I think you have bingo. All indications are that Talib likes playing in NE. I think this is a final bullet point on Talib's list of reasons to take a discount and resign here.

BB really has nothing to lose throwing this out there. People have long since decided if they like or hate him.

BB has probably watched more football film than any human in history. There's no way this was even close to the dirtiest play he's seen.

Mystic Merlin · Jan 20, 2014

glennhoffmania said:
Agree 100%. This is overreaction by fans (and the coach). Seriously, they're going to ask the smallest guy on the field who is just getting over a concussion to take out a DB? It may have been OPI, but that's the best case scenario for the Pats there.

Why are you assuming the Broncos 'asked' him to do it?

Norm Siebern · Jan 20, 2014

Mystic Merlin said:
Why are you assuming the Broncos 'asked' him to do it?

Exactly. He did it on his own. But that he did it on purpose is obvious. He goes out of his way to hit a defenseless Talib. But no one will ever care to point this out, because it was against the cheater Patriots. I am glad that Belichick called him out.

edit: Next year's game against the Broncos will be interesting, to be certain.

DanoooME · Jan 20, 2014

Sure looks like Welker initiated contact away from the ball, which, if it can't be OPI, it certainly should be a personal foul then. He's not blocking and he's not making a play on the ball.

As mentioned above, if Talib is hitting Welker like that, it's definitely a 15 yard PF penalty, so why shouldn't this be a PF the other way?

CoffeeNerdness · Jan 20, 2014

Given Talib's history with hip injuries and the odd way in which Welker gives up his body and flies at Talib's legs I think it was a split second decision by Welker to go at a known weak point with the purpose of injuring Talib.

bankshot1 · Jan 20, 2014

The play was designed to put Welker in that position to presumably either screen the defender or block him/take him out of the play. I thought it was an illegal pick.

BB publicly calling out Welker is unusual and seems almost personal in nature. These guys don't like each other..

glennhoffmania · Jan 20, 2014

Mystic Merlin said:
Why are you assuming the Broncos 'asked' him to do it?

Ok, so you're suggesting Welker did it on his own and intentionally hurt Talib.

Or maybe he was just trying to block him, or send a message that they weren't going to be intimidated. Of all of the possibilities I don't understand why people would assume that Welker was intentionally trying to injure a player by hitting him in the shoulder with his shoulder. If you want to argue it was OPI, that's very reasonable. Beyond that I really think you're reaching.

CoffeeNerdness · Jan 20, 2014

Al Zarilla said:
Welker's right shoulder and arm hits Talib's left shoulder and arm, Talib goes down on his back and injures ribs? I'm generally all behind Belichick with what he says, but there's not much there. If Talib were a Jets players, what would be said about him here?

While CBS first reported it as a rib injury they later added that he also had a knee injury. He was limping pretty clearly.

Fishercat · Jan 20, 2014

FWIW, Referee JIm Daopoulos (11 year retired ref) agreed with Belichick that it was an illegal hit and was OPI, so official opinion is split between him and Pereira.

As for my thoughts, definitely an illegal hit. Pereira typically has sympathies for referees on split second calls and this was a split second call, but "almost" isn't the NFL's call. If the ball is "almost" to a WR and the DB drills him, it's PI every day of the week. If the ball is "almost" over the goal line, it's not a TD. Pass interference isn't a neighborhood play, and OPI is criminally undercalled in the NFL as is. I don't think it was a dirty hit, but that's totally beyond my scope anyway on this kind of play. I wouldn't be surprised if this is mostly a smokescreen from Belichick to try and keep Talib on by supporting him, as has been mentioned here.

There's no way Welker is suspended for this, and a fine would be surprising to me too. I don't think he should be either.

With all of this said, Belichick, Welker, and Talib probably know way more about this situation than we do, and if Belichick is calling Welker out over it, that is exceedingly unorthodox for him and it's probably worth discussing.

Stitch01 · Jan 20, 2014

Bruschi's take

Bruschi: I know how it looked, David, but I disagree with the assessment. This type of collision happens every week in the NFL. If you look closely, this type of pick-route mentality happens weekly within the New England Patriot offense. It's a strategic way to beat man to man coverage. When these techniques are utilized closer to the line of scrimmage, they happen at a lower rate of speed. But when they happen down the field, 10-15 yards from the line of scrimmage, the rate of speed increases. Welker had a clear goal on that play -- to make Aqib Talib go over the top so he could free up Demaryius Thomas. Aqib Talib made a decision to attempt to fight to stay under that pick. So what you have there are 2 players, going at a high rate of speed because they were 10-plus yards from the line of scrimmage, simultaneously deciding to take the same route. That's where the collision occurred. Welker's intent was to pick Aqib Talib, but it wasn't to injure.

wibi · Jan 20, 2014

CoffeeNerdness said:
Given Talib's history with hip injuries and the odd way in which Welker gives up his body and flies at Talib's legs I think it was a split second decision by Welker to go at a known weak point with the purpose of injuring Talib.

LOL. Really?

I agree its an OPI but Welker sure looks like he's trying to not get killed there. If he was truly trying to injure him wouldnt he have dove or at least tried to initiate the hit instead of realizing that Talib wasnt slowing down and trying to protect himself

Just a bit outside · Jan 20, 2014

The play is dirty. If Talib was the wr and a defensive back drilled him like Welker did it would be 15 for hitting a defenseless player. I do not know if he was trying to hurt him but it was clearly a cheap hit.

DaughtersofDougMirabelli · Jan 20, 2014

Just a bit outside said:
The play is dirty. If Talib was the wr and a defensive back drilled him like Welker did it would be 15 for hitting a defenseless player. I do not know if he was trying to hurt him but it was clearly a cheap hit.

But Talib isn't a receiver and therefore he's not a defenseless player. Just like on kickoffs and punt return 'defenseless' players get lit up a few times a year.

It was a borderline penalty, Welker knew what he was doing, made a last minute decision and threw his body into him. I can't 100% say he was intending to injure, but it wasn't clean either. If that makes any sense.

Kliq · Jan 20, 2014

I don't think it was a "dirty play" in the sense that Welker did it to intentionally to injure Talib, but I do think it should be either OPI, or a personal foul.

The problem I see here is that there is an unhealthy discrepancy among officials on how to call the game. If they are going to call the Hooman play, then they HAVE to call the Welker block. The one thing officials have to be is consistent, and too often they are not. The same can be said for the fact that if Talib cracked Welker, he would have gotten 15 yards. The defensive player can't hit defenseless recievers anymore, but he can get crack blocked out of his shoes? This is something that the league has to address in the off-season, because too often it feels like the officials in the game all of different agendas on how to call the game.

NortheasternPJ · Jan 20, 2014

Anyone have the gif of when Edelman hit Rogers cromartie?

RedOctober3829 · Jan 20, 2014

If it isn't deemed an illegal hit by the league, I'll lose a lot of respect for the NFL. It was a blatant attempt at taking Talib out of the play. If anyone claims that Welker was running a route, they are seriously delusional. The play was designed for Thomas to get open and for Welker to get in the way of Talib. If you read MMQB's article on the pick play, that particular play is a pick play and should have been penalized. It was the same thing as Hooman's with more contact.

NortheasternPJ · Jan 20, 2014

RedOctober3829 said:
If it isn't deemed an illegal hit by the league, I'll lose a lot of respect for the NFL. It was a blatant attempt at taking Talib out of the play. If anyone claims that Welker was running a route, they are seriously delusional. The play was designed for Thomas to get open and for Welker to get in the way of Talib. If you read MMQB's article on the pick play, that particular play is a pick play and should have been penalized. It was the same thing as Hooman's with more contact.

Illegal or not it should be. Why is he CB treated any differently than a WR? Talib never expected to be leveled there. It was basically a version of a crack back block.

Fishercat · Jan 20, 2014

NortheasternPJ said:
Anyone have the gif of when Edelman hit Rogers cromartie?

Here is a link to a page that has it

http://gifsection.com/2014/01/julian-edelman-layed-dominique-rodgers-cromartie-broncos-patriots/julian-edelman-block-on-dominique-rodgers-cromartie/

A legal block of course.

NortheasternPJ · Jan 20, 2014

Fishercat said:
Here is a link to a page that has it

http://gifsection.com/2014/01/julian-edelman-layed-dominique-rodgers-cromartie-broncos-patriots/julian-edelman-block-on-dominique-rodgers-cromartie/

A legal block of course.

Thanks! That's what I thought I remembered. No clue how any sane person would compare that to the Welker hit.

yeahlunchbox · Jan 20, 2014

Absolutely a dirty play, and to me it highlights one of the biggest issues with the current NFL rules. Player safety rules aren't designed to enhance player safety, they're designed to enhance offense.

lars10 · Jan 20, 2014

glennhoffmania said:
Ok, so you're suggesting Welker did it on his own and intentionally hurt Talib.

Or maybe he was just trying to block him, or send a message that they weren't going to be intimidated. Of all of the possibilities I don't understand why people would assume that Welker was intentionally trying to injure a player by hitting him in the shoulder with his shoulder. If you want to argue it was OPI, that's very reasonable. Beyond that I really think you're reaching.

Probably because for one Welker's shoulder gets nowhere close to Talib's shoulder...Welker's shoulder/body hits Talib in his midsection/arm. (thus a broken rib or whatever)
That and if you're allowed to do that on crossing patterns from now on and that's now legal? Well expect to see a ton of DBs and WRs get absolutely blown up next season. The NFL has gone way out of it's way to protect defenseless players... Talib doesn't see Welker at all and Welker clearly comes from the blind side and throws himself into Talib. How people can't see that that's a problem is beyond me.

edit: The thing that makes is so potentially shady is that it's Welker...who was here last year and who knows how much losing Talib absolutely destroyed the Pats last year. Of course anyone knows that, but Welker was in the huddle/sideline and knows how much losing Talib changed everything last year. Maybe if it's Decker people would be less suspicious.

CoffeeNerdness · Jan 20, 2014

wibi said:
LOL. Really?

I agree its an OPI but Welker sure looks like he's trying to not get killed there. If he was truly trying to injure him wouldnt he have dove or at least tried to initiate the hit instead of realizing that Talib wasnt slowing down and trying to protect himse

Hurling your body into someone is a funny way of not trying to get killed.

Yaz4Ever · Jan 20, 2014

glennhoffmania said:
Ok, so you're suggesting Welker did it on his own and intentionally hurt Talib.

Or maybe he was just trying to block him, or send a message that they weren't going to be intimidated. Of all of the possibilities I don't understand why people would assume that Welker was intentionally trying to injure a player by hitting him in the shoulder with his shoulder. If you want to argue it was OPI, that's very reasonable. Beyond that I really think you're reaching.

yes

Nothing more to see, though, as nothing will come of it. Suspension? Not a chance. Fine? Not likely, but it won't affect anything. I'm hoping that Sherman turns out to be a huge Talib supporter and levels Welker on the first play he has a chance - take the 15 yards, remove Welker from the game, and move on.

glennhoffmania · Jan 20, 2014

lars10 said:
Probably because for one Welker's shoulder gets nowhere close to Talib's shoulder...Welker's shoulder/body hits Talib in his midsection/arm. (thus a broken rib or whatever)
That and if you're allowed to do that on crossing patterns from now on and that's now legal? Well expect to see a ton of DBs and WRs get absolutely blown up next season. The NFL has gone way out of it's way to protect defenseless players... Talib doesn't see Welker at all and Welker clearly comes from the blind side and throws himself into Talib. How people can't see that that's a problem is beyond me.

edit: The thing that makes is so potentially shady is that it's Welker...who was here last year and who knows how much losing Talib absolutely destroyed the Pats last year. Of course anyone knows that, but Welker was in the huddle/sideline and knows how much losing Talib changed everything last year. Maybe if it's Decker people would be less suspicious.

Whether it's a penalty and whether it's a dirty play intended to take a player out of the game are two very different things. I don't think anyone here saying that BB was wrong would have a problem if Welker was flagged.

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