The Washington Redskins cheerleaders and a trip from hell

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Indeed. Maybe revisit the whole "we're not Facebook here" post above and reconsider your whole sense of what you and we are doing here, eh, @joeflah ?

A little good faith in trying to parse issues of such moral import is required--and demanded.
 

Hildy

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I was just debating whether to add this to the "Men Behaving Badly" thread.
There is a lot more to the NFL cheerleading situation than the Redskins story, which is, indeed, appalling. The NYT is running a series on how NFL cheerleaders are treated. It's not surprising, and it is horrifying. I think this is another situation where this has been hiding in plain sight for years now, and nobody gave a rat's ass until now. And I'm not sure that much will change, to be honest.

Being groped by drunk fans is the norm. The teams expect it--indeed, they send them out to mingle with the tailgaters and suite holders. They do not allow the cheerleaders to get angry at the fans when it happens.
How the NFL uses social media to promote, and control, cheerleaders.

The EEO complaint that has started this whole conversation.

Inside the rule books for NFL cheerleaders

The dichotomy between the cheerleaders on the sideline being paid minimum wage [or less] and the players on the field being paid ungodly amounts is pretty glaring. The players are of course putting their lives and long-term wellbeing at risk. The women are being objectified and harassed and used.
And while I'm not trying to say that cheerleaders are the same level of athlete as an NFL player, they do put a lot of time and work into training. (I consider dancers to be athletes, although not everybody agrees.)

I unfortunately heard a few snippets of EEI this morning discussing this story, and Callahan's take was that 'it wasn't assault, it wasn't like Matt Lauer, chill out."
 
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edmunddantes

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I was just debating whether to add this to the "Men Behaving Badly" thread.
There is a lot more to the NFL cheerleading situation than the Redskins story, which is, indeed, appalling. The NYT is running a series on how NFL cheerleaders are treated. It's not surprising, and it is horrifying. I think this is another situation where this has been hiding in plain sight for years now, and nobody gave a rat's ass until now. And I'm not sure that much will change, to be honest.

Being groped by drunk fans is the norm. The teams expect it--indeed, they send them out to mingle with the tailgaters and suite holders. They do not allow the cheerleaders to get angry at the fans when it happens.
How the NFL uses social media to promote, and control, cheerleaders.

The EEO complaint that has started this whole conversation.

Inside the rule books for NFL cheerleaders

The dichotomy between the cheerleaders on the sideline being paid minimum wage and the players on the field being paid ungodly amounts is pretty glaring. The players are of course putting their lives and long-term wellbeing at risk. The women are being objectified and harassed and used.
And while I'm not trying to say that cheerleaders are the same level of athlete as an NFL player, they do put a lot of time and work into training. (I consider dancers to be athletes, although not everybody agrees.)

I unfortunately heard a few snippets of EEI this morning discussing this story, and Callahan's take was that 'it wasn't assault, it wasn't like Matt Lauer, chill out."
Sorry. Isn’t one of the things that they aren’t even being paid minimum wage?
 

Hildy

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Sorry. Isn’t one of the things that they aren’t even being paid minimum wage?
I think it varies. One of the articles describes the Saints paying the cheerleaders $14.75 an hour, which is more than minimum wage in Louisiana. (I may not have the numbers right here--I've used up my NYT articles for the month reading this stuff and can't go back to check.) Meanwhile, cheerleaders for the Oakland Raiders settled a lawsuit over their wages and are now paid minimum wage and overtime.
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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Why the hell does the NFL have cheerleaders anyway? Outside a cheesecake shot as the network goes to commercial what function do they serve? The whole operation looks like a liability with the creep factor being very high. Would ticket sales or TV ratings be affected at all if a franchise just discontinued the practice?
 

Montana Fan

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Why the hell does the NFL have cheerleaders anyway? Outside a cheesecake shot as the network goes to commercial what function do they serve? The whole operation looks like a liability with the creep factor being very high. Would ticket sales or TV ratings be affected at all if a franchise just discontinued the practice?
Exactly. As the last team to add cheerleaders, the Celts should have held out and honored Red's disdain for the distraction.

http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/02/17/go_go_dancing_all_over_reds_grave/
 

Super Nomario

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Why the hell does the NFL have cheerleaders anyway? Outside a cheesecake shot as the network goes to commercial what function do they serve? The whole operation looks like a liability with the creep factor being very high. Would ticket sales or TV ratings be affected at all if a franchise just discontinued the practice?
But who will lead the cheers then? How will the crowd know how to cheer on their favorite team if you leave that kind of leadership void?
 

OurF'ingCity

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Why the hell does the NFL have cheerleaders anyway? Outside a cheesecake shot as the network goes to commercial what function do they serve? The whole operation looks like a liability with the creep factor being very high. Would ticket sales or TV ratings be affected at all if a franchise just discontinued the practice?
Came here to post exactly this. I think this story says a lot more about the "role" of cheerleaders in the NFL more broadly than it does about the Redskins (anyone who thinks Snyder will be forced to sell due to this is insane as I am sure most, if not all, NFL teams could probably have similar stories written about them and the last thing they want to do is set that precedent).

In this day and age, though, who exactly would care if the NFL got rid of cheerleaders entirely besides a select group of sleazy old men who couldn't publicly argue for it because of the risk they get painted as just that? I get that they do some charitable event type-stuff and obviously many women see it is a valuable experience (I vaguely knew someone in college who ended up being a Pats cheerleader for a few years and she seemed to enjoy it) but the downside just seems so much greater than the upside.

I also agree with those who are saying it's a bit embarrassing this issue hasn't come up sooner. Frankly one of the most despicable parts of the NYT piece is the "hot or not" game on the Redskins website that not only allows people to rank cheerleaders on their looks but then publicly posted the rankings for all to see, and that was publicly available up until a few days ago. So it's not like this has been some secret, underground thing that is only now getting exposed even if certain of the details are perhaps even worse than people may have thought.
 

BaseballJones

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This applies to basketball as well though. For decades the Celtics held out and never had cheerleaders. Now they have cheerleaders and/or a dance team (sometimes it's hard to tell the difference). Generally they all dress in a fairly sexy manner and all of them are, of course, extremely attractive. What purpose do they serve except to be eye candy? Really. They don't actually fire up the crowd or "cheer" the team on as if they were in high school. They're the eye candy, sexualized portion of the entertainment, whether on a football field or on a basketball court.

I'd be thrilled if this disappeared. It's certainly not helping us lose the "let's see women as sexual objects" paradigm.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Time to get rid of cheerleaders. It’s an outdated job. Like the term Freshmen. It’s sexist and mysoginistic. Plus the NFL treats them as a piece of meat and pays them less than McDonalds workers. We don’t need to exploit women any more.
 

snowmanny

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It is obvious that cheerleaders in skimpy outfits for the sake of titillation at NBA and NFL games and for calendar sales are going to be gone in some number of years. I don't know if it will be 5 or 10 or 20 years, but at some point enough people will be grossed out by the whole concept that the whole pro sports sex stuff will disappear. It may take old people dying or young people getting rich but it will happen. I am a strong believer that if you know something is going to be the cultural norm eventually why not get moving in that direction now? I hate the noise and distraction at NBA games but obviously they have calculated that they have to fill every second in the arena with something - highlights ,crowd shots, noise-meters, music, flying t-shirts -and part of that is some sort of canned entertainment performed by athletic humans besides the players, but let's not have this crap. At NFL games it is super weird: a few girls chanting stupid rhymes to the people in front of them like it's Dracut high or something but in a 60,000 seat stadium roaring at full blast.
 

OurF'ingCity

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It is obvious that cheerleaders in skimpy outfits for the sake of titillation at NBA and NFL games and for calendar sales are going to be gone in some number of years. I don't know if it will be 5 or 10 or 20 years, but at some point enough people will be grossed out by the whole concept that the whole pro sports sex stuff will disappear. It may take old people dying or young people getting rich but it will happen. I am a strong believer that if you know something is going to be the cultural norm eventually why not get moving in that direction now? I hate the noise and distraction at NBA games but obviously they have calculated that they have to fill every second in the arena with something - highlights ,crowd shots, noise-meters, music, flying t-shirts -and part of that is some sort of canned entertainment performed by athletic humans besides the players, but let's not have this crap. At NFL games it is super weird: a few girls chanting stupid rhymes to the people in front of them like it's Dracut high or something but in a 60,000 seat stadium roaring at full blast.
Yeah, even putting aside the misogyny (if that's possible), the official NBA "dance teams" are far and away the worst mid-game entertainment anyway. I've been to a good number of NBA games and no one I've gone with (friends, girlfriend, siblings, parents, co-workers) has ever once indicated that they enjoyed the dance performance or were excited for it before it happened. Usually the response is a shrug or, in the case of my girlfriend and sister, both of whom danced through college, utter derision at the simplicity and vacuousness of the dance routines.

I think possibly literally the only people who care about cheerleaders/dance teams anymore are the old, rich, creepy guys that are buddies with the owners (as the Redskins story makes clear). Unfortunately, since these are the circles the owners travel in, I'm not sure how quickly change will come, but hopefully the NYT investigating will encourage more current or former cheerleaders and dancers to come forward or others to question what the point of these groups is now and we can just be done with it.
 

BaseballJones

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i agree that we are going to do away with this specialization of sports via cheerleaders at some point. Societal changes will make sure it happens.

What's weird is that porn - the ultimate, really, in sexual objectification, continues to explode in society and is nearly omnipresent. So society kind of speaks out of both sides of our mouths on this. Do we want swzual objectification of women or not? Mixed messages for sure.

(I know these cheerleaders aren't signing up to be pornstars; that's not the analogy I'm trying to make.)
 

BigSoxFan

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Change will certainly need to come but Jerry Jones views his cheerleaders as part of his brand and they make him money so I doubt anything substantial happens while he is alive.
 

SMU_Sox

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Change will certainly need to come but Jerry Jones views his cheerleaders as part of his brand and they make him money so I doubt anything substantial happens while he is alive.
I can only speak for what I have seen with the Cowboys and work but at any corporate-NFL or corporate-Cowboys event on-site or off-site if there is a Dallas Cowboys player present (former or retired) there are cheerleaders. Rowdy is there at least 50% of the time too depending on what kind of event it is. But always, so far anyway, the cheerleaders. I voiced my opinion to a female colleague about it once. The off-site cheerleaders are not usually the ones you see on Sunday either. Jerry has multiple teams of cheerleaders. I wonder how intimately he gets in that process. On second thought I do not want to wonder that.
 

reggiecleveland

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Why the hell does the NFL have cheerleaders anyway? Outside a cheesecake shot as the network goes to commercial what function do they serve? The whole operation looks like a liability with the creep factor being very high. Would ticket sales or TV ratings be affected at all if a franchise just discontinued the practice?
This is the answer. Cheer-leading is outdated, sexist and lame. It would be nice to get rid of the Snyders, but the next best thing getting rid of cheerleading would be a win as well.

As a coach of high school sports, nothing annoys me much more than the idea the cheerleaders are equal contributors to the game as players on the field or the court.

Obviously the abuse of the girls is horrible and is not deserved, but they basically provide soft core porn for the broadcasts, and should not be surprised the abuses of the porn industry are frequent.
 

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I think possibly literally the only people who care about cheerleaders/dance teams anymore are the old, rich, creepy guys that are buddies with the owners (as the Redskins story makes clear).
Not bloody likely. Cheerleaders appeal to the least common denominator types. You know who I'm talking about: the "sexy girl" mudflap truck driver and the "Female Body Inspector" t-shirt guy, to name a couple. Like the Washington Football Club's nickname, you'll have to pry the cheerleaders from their cold, dead hands. Especially Cowboys fans. Oh, speaking of:
Change will certainly need to come but Jerry Jones views his cheerleaders as part of his brand and they make him money so I doubt anything substantial happens while he is alive.
Even after he dies, nothing will happen without a league mandate. The Cowboys cheerleaders are omnipresent - as @SMU_Sox pointed out - and they're just as synonymous with the team as the star logo. Unfortunately, I just don't see this happening anytime soon; if at all.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I unfortunately heard a few snippets of EEI this morning discussing this story, and Callahan's take was that 'it wasn't assault, it wasn't like Matt Lauer, chill out."
What a shock.

This is the answer. Cheer-leading is outdated, sexist and lame. It would be nice to get rid of the Snyders, but the next best thing getting rid of cheerleading would be a win as well.
I don't think that this is the answer. If a person likes to be a cheerleader, why are we taking away something that they like to do? The answer here isn't to get rid of a broken system, but to fix it. To put it another way, if you like your car, you don't get rid of it when the headlight goes out. You fix it.

It's obvious to me that the women who are cheerleaders are doing it because they like the activity. They have to put up with shitty pay, getting groped by assholes, people yelling at them because of the way they're dressed and tons of other crap that we don't know about. Why would we get rid of something that they all love in the guise of "protecting them".
 

InstaFace

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This article disgusts me. I just wonder if there's an SOL outstanding such that it could be prosecuted.

What's weird is that porn - the ultimate, really, in sexual objectification, continues to explode in society and is nearly omnipresent. So society kind of speaks out of both sides of our mouths on this. Do we want sexual objectification of women or not? Mixed messages for sure.
Porn actresses literally signed up for what they're on film for, are being paid a negotiated (market) rate, and have numerous procedural and health safeguards when done by a professional company. As women gain more positions of power, more financial assets and professional options, and as we all steadily defeat stereotypes and biases, the number of people willing to do that work will go down and the market rate will go up, as well as improving the protections and conditions of the work.

We're going to a world where women will be treated as human beings and equals, except where they've explicitly decided it would be fun or profitable to be an object of one kind or another. It's a flip of the default state, which is that women are treated as objects and possessions all the time except under rare circumstances. That there will still remain options to be an object does not alter the fact that the default will have changed once we arrive at that world..
 

Bozo Texino

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This article disgusts me. I just wonder if there's an SOL outstanding such that it could be prosecuted.


Porn actresses literally signed up for what they're on film for, are being paid a negotiated (market) rate, and have numerous procedural and health safeguards when done by a professional company. As women gain more positions of power, more financial assets and professional options, and as we all steadily defeat stereotypes and biases, the number of people willing to do that work will go down and the market rate will go up, as well as improving the protections and conditions of the work.

We're going to a world where women will be treated as human beings and equals, except where they've explicitly decided it would be fun or profitable to be an object of one kind or another. It's a flip of the default state, which is that women are treated as objects and possessions all the time except under rare circumstances. That there will still remain options to be an object does not alter the fact that the default will have changed once we arrive at that world..
That is most definitely not always the case when it comes to porn shoots. There have plenty of recent stories about women being forced into situations to which they did NOT agree.
 

Merkle's Boner

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Regarding the Celtics dancers, the sad thing is the only person I have ever brought to a game who loved the dancers was my daughter when she was 6-10 years old. Of course, she’s 17 now and thinks it’s disgusting.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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What a shock.



I don't think that this is the answer. If a person likes to be a cheerleader, why are we taking away something that they like to do? The answer here isn't to get rid of a broken system, but to fix it. To put it another way, if you like your car, you don't get rid of it when the headlight goes out. You fix it.

It's obvious to me that the women who are cheerleaders are doing it because they like the activity. They have to put up with shitty pay, getting groped by assholes, people yelling at them because of the way they're dressed and tons of other crap that we don't know about. Why would we get rid of something that they all love in the guise of "protecting them".
The greater good is to get rid of it. They might like it but it also sets a bad example for the youth of America that this is what you have to look like as a female. Sets unrealistic expectations. I understand a few women might like doing it but you hear all of these stories about unfair wages and 2 dollars a day and getting groped at some point you also have to consider their safety. This starts by getting rid of the problem and becoming an ally of not necessarily feminism but equal rights for women. You can do that by showing these women who want to be cheerleaders that they can do other things, better things in sports that don’t objectify themselves such as play in the WNBA or the LPGA or something where they aren’t taken advantage of. Personally i think the whole modeling industry should be banned as well as the porn industry. I mean we’ve all been there but now we need to set an example as the youth of this country and change with it.
 

OnWisc

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It's obvious to me that the women who are cheerleaders are doing it because they like the activity. They have to put up with shitty pay, getting groped by assholes, people yelling at them because of the way they're dressed and tons of other crap that we don't know about. Why would we get rid of something that they all love in the guise of "protecting them".
This. Holy shit I'm surprised by the responses here. If they got rid of the cheerleaders and dance teams I don't think I'd even notice, but the problem here is that, once again, individuals associated with the NFL (and the league is hardly alone in this) were given the ability to exercise power to a degree that was unwarranted by their mental capacity and judgement skills. This is another case of out-of-touch and mentally immature man-children given the opportunity to misbehave by an organization run by their like-minded brethren, not some call to arms to address a dated peripheral form of entertainment that still serves as a recreational outlet for many women.

But if you want to play that game, the NFL owners aren't just taking advantage of the cheerleaders, but the players as well. The players may be better compensated in the moment, but the physical damage they endure is far more significant. Not to mention that the deification of the NFL player perpetuates the dated notion to kids and teens that a man's gender role is to participate in contact sports that can lead to substantial physical and mental impairments later in life. If we're gonna protect the cheerleaders by just eliminating their jobs, why not do the same for the players and just close the book on the whole league?
 

trekfan55

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First off, I believe it's each person's choice to do what they want or like to do and to dress in the way they feel appropriate.

If a lady wants to dance and auditions to be a cheerleader, she is told: "this is what you have to wear, this is the dance we expect you to perform, these are the activities we expect you to participate in (such as visiting hospitals, participate in corporate events, etc.)" At this point it should be clear to her what is expected and it's her choice to do so. She must also realize that men exist in this world who will look at her and have all kinds of dirty thoughts. This will happen anywhere.
Now, if this lady happens to be religious or has objections to showing off her body like this, her choice would obviously be not to engage in cheerleading.

That takes us to this report. This has to be beyond the normal bounds and expectations of anyone who participates in cheerleading. It starts when they took their passports. It follows when they must disrobe in front of spectators. It follows when they are told to escort big money fans to a night club.

What enraged me about that tweet upthread is this: No cheerleader can blame someone for having lewd thoughts about her. But they chose to dance and entertain, not to do any of the things that happened on this trip. And at this point we do not know if sexual assault happened. Let's hope it didn't.

Cheerleaders are professional dancers and entertainers and they are paid for that work. No one, management or otherwise has the right to assume their duties include anything else. The whole, she was dressed like that, or was dancing like that, she should know better and should not be amazed if someone acted on it must be put to rest once and for all.
 

Kliq

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I think there is a difference between cheerleaders being mistreated and cheerleading being inherently wrong. Cheerleaders at the NFL level have been grossly mistreated and obviously anything that was mentioned in the NYT article should not be happening and the people responsible for it should be held accountable. I also think that we have evolved as a society where sex appeal is used to market sports to the public is outdated. The only time you ever see the cheerleaders on an NFL broadcast is right before they show the sponsors of the game; and that needs to change. Maybe the NFL doesn't need cheerleaders at all.

However, I don't think we can just bluntly say that cheerleading is stupid and they should get rid of it entirely. Depending on what part of the country you live in, cheerleading might be a big fucking deal. A lot of people probably don't know that Eastern Massachusetts is like, the Texas of Pop Warner Cheerleading. Make it out of the regional and chances are you are going to win first at the National Championships. Both of my sisters went to Orlando twice and won the national championship when they were in middle school.

Now, I never had a great affinity for cheerleading. As a kid I remember being bored to tears sitting in the Tsongas Arena waiting for the cheerleading competition to end. All of the routines seemed the same to me and the music was too loud. But both my siblings loved it; it was athletic, incorporated dance and music, you got to wear makeup, it was outside in the fall and unlike doing ballet; there was a real competitive element to it. Yeah I don't give a shit about cheerleading and if it ceased to be a thing I wouldn't be missing out on anything, but if people really like doing it, it shouldn't be an issue.

The real issue is that women were taken advantage of and that cheerleaders are exploited by the NFL; not that cheerleading needs to go away.
 

BaseballJones

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This article disgusts me. I just wonder if there's an SOL outstanding such that it could be prosecuted.


Porn actresses literally signed up for what they're on film for, are being paid a negotiated (market) rate, and have numerous procedural and health safeguards when done by a professional company. As women gain more positions of power, more financial assets and professional options, and as we all steadily defeat stereotypes and biases, the number of people willing to do that work will go down and the market rate will go up, as well as improving the protections and conditions of the work.

We're going to a world where women will be treated as human beings and equals, except where they've explicitly decided it would be fun or profitable to be an object of one kind or another. It's a flip of the default state, which is that women are treated as objects and possessions all the time except under rare circumstances. That there will still remain options to be an object does not alter the fact that the default will have changed once we arrive at that world..
I don't know why you'd say that as women gain more power and influence porn will go down. We've seen women make unprecedented strides in almost every way the past decade and the porn industry has exploded. And the demographic consuming porn more than ever is women themselves.

Anyway my comment wasn't to compare cheerleading with porn stars, it was simply to talk about how our society objectifies women sexually. I see no evidence, based on advertising and the success of 50 shades of grey and the growth of the porn industry, that it's declining anytime soon.

Ok I'm done here.
 

eustis22

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I swear, getting rich makes you so sociopathic you're just too cheap to hire hookers.

A small part of me asks why ANYONE would be an NFL cheerleader??? You're telling me young hot chicks can't get regular jobs?
 

snowmanny

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You could imagine some sort of cheerleading that doesn't involve, for example, swimsuit calendars. Or make parents embarrassed in front of their teenage kids.
 

jose melendez

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I wish the Celtics had never added the dance team... or the t-shirt cannons or any of that crap. That said, at least at basketball games, they actually get on the floor and do dance routines during the endless boring commercials. I'm not sure about the NFL in general, but at Washington games, they blast commercials at top volume during every time out, so I'm not really sure what purpose the cheerleaders even hypothetically serve.

Also, the argument that "they signed up for this" is a) specious in this example and b) the argument against literally every workplace regulation ever. "If they didn't want black lung, they shouldn't have become a coal miner."
 

reggiecleveland

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What a shock.



I don't think that this is the answer. If a person likes to be a cheerleader, why are we taking away something that they like to do? The answer here isn't to get rid of a broken system, but to fix it. To put it another way, if you like your car, you don't get rid of it when the headlight goes out. You fix it.

It's obvious to me that the women who are cheerleaders are doing it because they like the activity. They have to put up with shitty pay, getting groped by assholes, people yelling at them because of the way they're dressed and tons of other crap that we don't know about. Why would we get rid of something that they all love in the guise of "protecting them".
Just to quibble, just because somebody likes something does not mean it is worthwhile. Also the fact they are pursuing an ultimately pointless and valueless dream does not mean they should be subject to abuse.

I am not in favor of getting rid of it to protect the women, but because it is stupid. It is the minor leagues of pretty girl entertainment jobs and a step or two above porn. I would never want my daughter doing that job or working at Hooters. I would sooner she married a Yankee fan, than think her place was to wave a pompom of the literal sidelines to the real event.

My basketball contacts and just knowing the right guys, and some luck has had me in the "members" or richie rich pregame and post game NBA parties. The dancers, or some of them at least, are always there. Some of them seem clearly uncomfortable, and they seem managed by pimpy characters male or female telling them to mingle, etc. Many or most seem interested in meeting the guys. I always make a little joke about how fast they leave my table when they find out I am a teacher. One interesting observation is that a few times former cheerleaders were on the arm of one of the high rollers and they were viewed with at least feigned envy by the other girls. The guys I know say there are a few NBA teams that do not have the dancers at these events ever. I expect NBA dancer is better job than NFL cheerleader

A guy I know has made a ton of cash and is huge sports fan, and goes to NBA, NFL games and events all the time, and loves to meet former and current players. He said the cheerleaders chasing the rich dudes is a constant annoyance/perk depending on your point of view. This is not the fault of cheerleading, and those girls would be there in some form or another, so this not a problem cured by abolishing cheerleading. Cheerleading should be abolished because it is stupid.
 

AB in DC

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So we have this article about nine Redskins employees who were pressured/forced to do things without their consent, and without being paid -- a stone's throw away from human trafficking, as someone said earlier.

And somehow that morphs into "Cheerleaders are bad for society" and "Let's fire every single cheerleader in the NBA/NFL/etc"?

Are you F-ing kidding me?
 

AB in DC

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I was just debating whether to add this to the "Men Behaving Badly" thread
And I'm not sure that much will change, to be honest.
Of course not. Because Tom Brokaw french-kissed a women fifty years ago, and obviously that's way, way more important than what the Redskins organization did to these nine women..
 

reggiecleveland

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I have never had reason to comment on cheerleaders before. Had I been asked in any context about cheerleading I would have come out on the side it is stupid and unnecessary.


Certainly the case involving the Washington cheerleaders needs to be pursued. If at the time Netflix streaming became widely available we learned Blockbuster was abusing employees, we would perhaps assume an outdated job should just be eliminated. I would have thought that with or without the abuse. Blockbuster employees losing their jobs was progress, not punishment. But blockbuster employees like coal-miners and street manure cleaners once served a purpose to society.
 

DJnVa

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I swear, getting rich makes you so sociopathic you're just too cheap to hire hookers.

A small part of me asks why ANYONE would be an NFL cheerleader??? You're telling me young hot chicks can't get regular jobs?
I'm sure they could, but again, some might like football, and this is a way to be around it, others like performing, others may use this as a stepping stone elsewhere, etc. Who are we else to decide what they should want to do?

The issue is abhorrent behavior by others, not them. The solution is not to take away what they like to do.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
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Just to quibble, just because somebody likes something does not mean it is worthwhile. Also the fact they are pursuing an ultimately pointless and valueless dream does not mean they should be subject to abuse.
Who gives you the right to decide whether what's pointless? What if someone thought that hoops was pointless? There are plenty of people who believe that basketball, or sports in general, are dumb and isn't worthwhile at all. I mean, a Kings-Magic game in February is remarkably pointless.

I am not in favor of getting rid of it to protect the women, but because it is stupid.
C'mon, man. You're much better than this statement. This statement is plain stupid.

There is nothing inherently wrong with cheerleading, the activity. It promotes physical fitness and community pride. What is wrong with cheerleading are the assholes that are trying to pimp them out. Though I suppose you could widen this to the sports parents who push their girls in this too, but that's really a youth sports problem as a whole, not just a cheerleader issue.

Despite your distaste of cheerleading, there are people who love it and enjoy it. Getting rid of the entire cheerleading magilla because of the Washington football team is just plain wrong.

Edit: to be honest, the sport that cheerleaders cheer for: football should be the one that's outlawed. It is an incredibly violent sport where athletes are far worse coming out of it than going in it. Cheerleading is relatively harmless, football isn't.
 

Reverend

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The greater good is to get rid of it. They might like it but it also sets a bad example for the youth of America that this is what you have to look like as a female. Sets unrealistic expectations. I understand a few women might like doing it but you hear all of these stories about unfair wages and 2 dollars a day and getting groped at some point you also have to consider their safety. This starts by getting rid of the problem and becoming an ally of not necessarily feminism but equal rights for women. You can do that by showing these women who want to be cheerleaders that they can do other things, better things in sports that don’t objectify themselves such as play in the WNBA or the LPGA or something where they aren’t taken advantage of. Personally i think the whole modeling industry should be banned as well as the porn industry. I mean we’ve all been there but now we need to set an example as the youth of this country and change with it.
At some point, would you be willing to submit a list of things and practices you do find acceptable? I think that might be instructive.

This. Holy shit I'm surprised by the responses here. If they got rid of the cheerleaders and dance teams I don't think I'd even notice, but the problem here is that, once again, individuals associated with the NFL (and the league is hardly alone in this) were given the ability to exercise power to a degree that was unwarranted by their mental capacity and judgement skills. This is another case of out-of-touch and mentally immature man-children given the opportunity to misbehave by an organization run by their like-minded brethren, not some call to arms to address a dated peripheral form of entertainment that still serves as a recreational outlet for many women.

But if you want to play that game, the NFL owners aren't just taking advantage of the cheerleaders, but the players as well. The players may be better compensated in the moment, but the physical damage they endure is far more significant. Not to mention that the deification of the NFL player perpetuates the dated notion to kids and teens that a man's gender role is to participate in contact sports that can lead to substantial physical and mental impairments later in life. If we're gonna protect the cheerleaders by just eliminating their jobs, why not do the same for the players and just close the book on the whole league?
Totally this.

The idea of shutting down a women's activity because a bunch of guys can't handle not being creepy, oppressive, and downright criminal about it is... this is not progress.

Megan Kelly had it the other day on whatever show she is on: Is there a safe avenue for women to report abuses/violations?

Like, maybe operate on a principle of empowerment and autonomy and then see how things play out rather than just smashing an entire institution because we can't imagine the sexes/genders being able to behave themselves in a civilized fashion?

I swear, getting rich makes you so sociopathic you're just too cheap to hire hookers.

A small part of me asks why ANYONE would be an NFL cheerleader??? You're telling me young hot chicks can't get regular jobs?
Now push it further:

You know how some people pay extra for the "girlfriend treatment"? Well, this is a super premium for pretending the Brand Name (literally) women they working on is not an attempt to buy prostitutes.

It's the conspicuous consumption of the John world.
 

reggiecleveland

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All fair points JMOH. Again, the Washington thing has nothing to do with getting rid of cheerleading. The Redskins name is much more important. I think cheerleading is pointless and others feel sports are pointless. The market value of athletes and a "safesearch off" search for cheerleader tells me more people agree with my valuation of the two pursuits, than disagree.

You are right it is my opinion. Cheerleading is an accumulation of many things I dislike. The exploitation of women, the glorification of the pretty girl over the capable girl, the ruining of pure sports events with silly things to entertain the casual fan, and worst of all the co-opting of feminism for something not feminist at all, the using of worthwhile social causes just to protect what is your own personal joy. When I stop to think about it, it pisses me off.

There was a time when girls didn't play sports, and cheering was their job. No matter how much you add athleticism, throw in a few guys to help with the pyramid, that is what cheerleading was, and it remains a remnant of that stupid time. Not everything is equal. Not everything is worthwhile.

I am perfectly fine ignoring this annoyance, but if you ever, ever ask me. I will tell you, cheerleading is stupid

Given the power I would get rid of it. I would also make frowning rich kids sitting in the front row playing of their iphone switch seats with the guy that knows how the starting pitcher did last game sitting in the nosebleeds, and no you cannot go home. I would take the guy that stands up and bangs on the glass at the NHL game blocking others' view hoping to distract the opposing defenseman into the parking lot and not allow him that seat for 1 year. Any fan heckling Bogearts with a fake Boston "BOGAHTS!!" will get one one warning before ejection. There are lots of things I would like to ban, but do not have the power.
 
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Reverend

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Also, could you all stop talking about pointless activities? I've got a playoff game to get excited for and y'all are harshing my fantasy that it's important which set of titanic millionaires score more socially constructed points by best organizing themselves around a small, consciousless object.

Thanks in advance. :wooper:
 
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John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I will tell you, cheerleading is stupid.
I don't disagree with you. My youngest is trying very hard to become a cheerleader and my wife and I are both very much against it and there are a lot of reasons for it -- many of which you mention in your post.

The reason why my daughter wants to be a cheerleader is because "regular" sports are hard for her due to a breathing issue that she has. She plays soccer and sometimes has to leave the field because breathing because an issue. Gymnastics and whatever else cheerleaders do don't seem to exacerbate that breathing problem, so there's a part of me that wants her to do this activity because it will be fun. But there's also another part of me that wants to shut it down because of all the other bullshit.

My daughter's reasons for wanting to be a cheerleader aren't typical, but there are girls like her out there.
 

Reverend

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I don't disagree with you. My youngest is trying very hard to become a cheerleader and my wife and I are both very much against it and there are a lot of reasons for it -- many of which you mention in your post.

The reason why my daughter wants to be a cheerleader is because "regular" sports are hard for her due to a breathing issue that she has. She plays soccer and sometimes has to leave the field because breathing because an issue. Gymnastics and whatever else cheerleaders do don't seem to exacerbate that breathing problem, so there's a part of me that wants her to do this activity because it will be fun. But there's also another part of me that wants to shut it down because of all the other bullshit.

My daughter's reasons for wanting to be a cheerleader aren't typical, but there are girls like her out there.
Start putting kung fu movies into the regular rotation without mentioning it.

Thank me later.
 

MDJ

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Feb 9, 2009
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All fair points JMOH. Again, the Washington thing has nothing to do with getting rid of cheerleading. The Redskins name is much more important. I think cheerleading is pointless and others feel sports are pointless. The market value of athletes and a "safesearch off" search for cheerleader tells me more people agree with my valuation of the two pursuits, than disagree.

You are right it is my opinion. Cheerleading is an accumulation of many things I dislike. The exploitation of women, the glorification of the pretty girl over the capable girl, the ruining of pure sports events with silly things to entertain the casual fan, and worst of all the co-opting of feminism for something not feminist at all, the using of worthwhile social causes just to protect what is your own personal joy. When I stop to think about it, it pisses me off.

There was a time when girls didn't play sports, and cheering was their job. No matter how much you add athleticism, throw in a few guys to help with the pyramid, that is what cheerleading was, and it remains a remnant of that stupid time. Not everything is equal. Not everything is worthwhile.

I am perfectly fine ignoring this annoyance, but if you ever, ever ask me. I will tell you, cheerleading is stupid

Given the power I would get rid of it. I would also make frowning rich kids sitting in the front row playing of their iphone switch seats with the guy that knows how the starting pitcher did last game sitting in the nosebleeds, and no you cannot go home. I would take the guy that stands up and bangs on the glass at the NHL game blocking others' view hoping to distract the opposing defenseman into the parking lot and not allow him that seat for 1 year. Any fan heckling Bogearts with a fake Boston "BOGAHTS!!" will get one one warning before ejection. There are lots of things I would like to ban, but do not have the power.
Your avatar is a woman's ass.
 

Ralphwiggum

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In terms of the Washington Cheerleaders not getting paid for their trip to Costa Rica, I don’t have any particular problem with that necessarily. I don’t know for sure but I am guessing that’s the way a lot of these calendar shoots go for NFL cheerleading squads. Obviously it depends on the specifics, but if the team pays to get the girls down there, puts them up in a nice resort, and they get a nice, free vacation and participate in the calendar shoot, that seems like an OK deal to me.

Obviously the passport stuff, and the forced nudity and forced interaction with sponsors is disgusting.

Joe Buck and his wife were on Howard Stern recently. She is a former Denver Bronco cheerleader and used it as a stepping stone to get into sports media. She was just out of college (or high school, can’t remember) loved football and the Broncos and thought it was a cool job. I don’t get it either, but banning it doesn’t seem like the right answer.
 

trekfan55

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In terms of the Washington Cheerleaders not getting paid for their trip to Costa Rica, I don’t have any particular problem with that necessarily. I don’t know for sure but I am guessing that’s the way a lot of these calendar shoots go for NFL cheerleading squads. Obviously it depends on the specifics, but if the team pays to get the girls down there, puts them up in a nice resort, and they get a nice, free vacation and participate in the calendar shoot, that seems like an OK deal to me.
Yeah this sounds about right except no. The report says they had a dress code, had no time to enjoy any of the meals, had virtually no free time for themselves, and that's on top of what you already mentioned. So, yes they should be compensated for the time spent there. If, on the other hand, they had to shoot pictures for a time and had the rest of the day for themselves then it's a different story.

BTW Britt Mchenry and her ilk are pushing the right buttons here. We are focusing on cheerleading and whether it's right or wrong, or stupid, or whatever instead of the fact that what the Redskins did to these girls is absolutely wrong and should be investigated. No career choice gives anyone the right to abuse.
 

BusRaker

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Aug 11, 2006
906
Why the hell does the NFL have cheerleaders anyway? Outside a cheesecake shot as the network goes to commercial what function do they serve? The whole operation looks like a liability with the creep factor being very high. Would ticket sales or TV ratings be affected at all if a franchise just discontinued the practice?
If it weren't for cheerleaders we'd never have ...
So I guess I agree
 

Reverend

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In terms of the Washington Cheerleaders not getting paid for their trip to Costa Rica, I don’t have any particular problem with that necessarily. I don’t know for sure but I am guessing that’s the way a lot of these calendar shoots go for NFL cheerleading squads. Obviously it depends on the specifics, but if the team pays to get the girls down there, puts them up in a nice resort, and they get a nice, free vacation and participate in the calendar shoot, that seems like an OK deal to me.

Obviously the passport stuff, and the forced nudity and forced interaction with sponsors is disgusting.

Joe Buck and his wife were on Howard Stern recently. She is a former Denver Bronco cheerleader and used it as a stepping stone to get into sports media. She was just out of college (or high school, can’t remember) loved football and the Broncos and thought it was a cool job. I don’t get it either, but banning it doesn’t seem like the right answer.
How do you feel about the NCAA?