The Victorino Health Watch Thread

mabrowndog

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He got a delayed start this spring with the core strength issues, and now this:
 

Brian MacPherson ‏@brianmacp
Shane Victorino felt his right hamstring grab today. Farrell said Victorino will get an MRI on the hamstring, likely back in Boston.
Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe
Victorino (right hamstring) needs MRI and likely headed back to Boston. No roster move yet. 
Maureen Mullen ‏@MaureenaMullen
Victorino felt Rt hamstring grab running down line in 2d AB today. Will get MRI, likely in BOS. Status uncertain till then.
 

Pete Abraham ‏@PeteAbe  3m
“I’ll be fine. I’ll be ready to go. That’s all you guys need to know,” Victorino told reporters.
 

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber  13m
Given uncertainty over Victorino, Jackie Bradley Jr. is "on call," Farrell said, though not traveling to Baltimore tonight with team
 



Shane's tenuous medical track record and oft-reckless playing style are what sparked a good chunk of the skeptical criticism when the Sox signed him last winter. 2013 saw him play through most of the nags and minor stuff, though he did have one 15-day DL stint for his left hamstring. Still, he was pretty beat up by season's end, and I'm sure good chunk of his off-season was spent licking the wounds even beyond his thumb surgery (courtesy of Baseball Prospectus):
 
[tablegrid=]     Days Games       Shelved Returned Transaction Missed Missed Side Body Part Injury 2013-03-27 2013-03-27 Camp 0 0 Right Wrist Inflammation 2013-04-21 2013-04-22 DTD 1 2 -0 Low Back Tightness 2013-04-25 2013-05-03 DTD 8 7 -0 Low Back Soreness 2013-05-13 2013-05-14 DTD 1 0 -0 Ribcage Contusion 2013-05-17 2013-05-19 DTD 2 2 -0 Low Back Spasms 2013-05-21 2013-06-08 15-DL 18 16 Left Hamstring Strain 2013-06-24 2013-06-25 DTD 1 0 -0 Low Back Tightness 2013-07-07 2013-07-09 DTD 2 2 Left Hamstring Tightness 2013-07-20 2013-07-21 DTD 1 1 Left Hamstring Strain 2013-08-16 2013-08-16 DTD 0 0 Left Hamstring Strain 2013-09-02 2013-09-02 DTD 0 0 Left Hip Contusion 2013-09-19 2013-09-20 DTD 1 1 Right Thumb Sprain 2013-10-27 2013-10-30 DTD 3 0 -0 Low Back Soreness 2013-12-16 2013-12-16 Offseason 0 0 Right Thumb Surgery [/tablegrid]
 
Those same critics (and probably some of those who favored that contract) may be more acutely nervous now. I was one of those supporters, but I also believe his well-being and lineup presence will be the single most important non-pitching bellwether in terms of how closely this team can replicate last year's success. His absence creates a cascade of other issues, from lineup depth to defensive range & efficiency in baseball's most expansive right field, and from basepath speed & disruption to a lack of spark and contagious energy.
 
 

JMDurron

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mabrowndog said:
H
 
Those same critics (and probably some of those who favored that contract) may be more acutely nervous now. I was one of those supporters, but I also believe his well-being and lineup presence will be the single most important non-pitching bellwether in terms of how closely this team can replicate last year's success. His absence creates a cascade of other issues, from lineup depth to defensive range & efficiency in baseball's most expansive right field, and from basepath speed & disruption to a lack of spark and contagious energy.
 
 
Completely agreed on the negative impacts to defensive range, lineup depth, and speed on the basepaths, but the one positive clubhouse impact might be giving Gomes enough playing time to not be a distraction.  It was never an issue last year due to Victorino's brittleness, and Nava's postseason struggles made playing Gomes an easier decision in the World Series, but with a healthy OF, clubhouse leader Gomes would only be playing a significant amount of time if John Farrell believed that chemistry was more important than a player's ability with the bat.  
 
I don't know for a fact that he would be a distraction, but a player with Gomes' level of identification with the 2013 team, at 33 years of age with his deal expiring after 2014 could understandably get agitated if he did not get enough playing time behind Daniel Nava.  Nava being forced to play RF often enough to get Gomes more LF starts to keep him fresh and engaged might be a good thing, strictly from the perspective of the dreaded intangibles.  I don't trust them, and I can't measure them, but I'll be damned if I'll pretend that they aren't important after September of 2011 through October of 2013.  
 

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JMDurron said:
 
...with a healthy OF, clubhouse leader Gomes would only be playing a significant amount of time if John Farrell believed that chemistry was more important than a player's ability with the bat. 
 
Unless he's hurt or slumping terribly, I don't see why in the world he'd be getting less playing time than he did last year (67 OF starts, 9 DH), and he seemed OK with that.
 

JMDurron

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Unless he's hurt or slumping terribly, I don't see why in the world he'd be getting less playing time than he did last year (67 OF starts, 9 DH), and he seemed OK with that.
 
Right, it wasn't an issue last year because of injuries to Ortiz (early in the year at DH), and Victorino (off and on all year in RF, moving Nava over).  In a more ideal scenario, where Nava isn't spending more time in RF than in LF, I think Gomes isn't likely to get to play that often if the starting decisions are entirely performance/capability-based.  We might be all ok with that, but we aren't Jonny Gomes.  
 
I might be being entirely unfair to Gomes here, maybe he's fine with a "hey, I'm just here to help the team in any way I can" role even if that means he's on the bench, and I'm letting echoes of 2005 Kevin Millar cloud my mind because of the "Look at me! I'm the team mascot!" factor.  I do think that he's a human, and that the potential to keep him happy with some additional playing time is literally the only silver lining I can see to Shane Victorino being hurt...again.  
 

Plympton91

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I was wondering the same thing about Gomes in a contract year being different from Gomes on a 2 year contract. Lets hope not.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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JMDurron said:
 
Right, it wasn't an issue last year because of injuries to Ortiz (early in the year at DH), and Victorino (off and on all year in RF, moving Nava over).  In a more ideal scenario, where Nava isn't spending more time in RF than in LF, I think Gomes isn't likely to get to play that often if the starting decisions are entirely performance/capability-based.  We might be all ok with that, but we aren't Jonny Gomes. 
 
Nava should *never* start vs. a LHP. That leaves a lot of opportunities for Gomes.
 

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JMDurron said:
Right, it wasn't an issue last year because of injuries to Ortiz (early in the year at DH), and Victorino (off and on all year in RF, moving Nava over).  In a more ideal scenario, where Nava isn't spending more time in RF than in LF, I think Gomes isn't likely to get to play that often if the starting decisions are entirely performance/capability-based.  We might be all ok with that, but we aren't Jonny Gomes.  
 
I might be being entirely unfair to Gomes here, maybe he's fine with a "hey, I'm just here to help the team in any way I can" role even if that means he's on the bench, and I'm letting echoes of 2005 Kevin Millar cloud my mind because of the "Look at me! I'm the team mascot!" factor.  I do think that he's a human, and that the potential to keep him happy with some additional playing time is literally the only silver lining I can see to Shane Victorino being hurt...again.  
Speier addressed some of this today. He played in right late in today's game with the scrubs just to get some work in. Also, he's been going in late as a pinch hitter and has even traveled to games in ST just to be a late pinch hitter which is unusual for a veteran.

Speier stated it's because he wants to ready himself for any way he might be of use to the club. It sounds kinda awesome.
 

nattysez

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https://twitter.com/Sean_McAdam/status/450311273700667394?screen_name=Sean_McAdam

I expect they'll be cautious with Shane Vic. I wonder if this means they bring up JBJ and let him get a few starts in RF - I don't think he needs more Spring Training at this point, so a little more acclimation to being with the big club might be worthwhile.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Victorino's day-to-day injury issues combined with Sizemore needing days off a lot, combined with Fenway's RF, makes it risky to not have Bradley on the roster. When you've got Sizemore and Victorino as your CF and RF, Bradley is the best fit with them. He would get plenty of playing time and his defense would be really helpful. But at this point, it's not going to happen unless Victorino goes on the DL.
 
If Bradley is in AAA, then get ready for some days with Nava in RF, and even the occasional horror show OF of Carp, Nava and Gomes all standing out there at the same time. If Sizemore needs the day off and Victorino is too banged up to play but isn't on the DL, then that is what you're looking at. That is going to be ugly and will cost runs. (Hey Herrera played 7 innings in LF last year, maybe he'd be better out there than those guys?)
 
I love Carp and don't want us to trade him (because no one will offer as much as we'd need to move him) but part of the cost of keeping him is the risk of that horror show outfield on occasion.
 

DaveRoberts'Shoes

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He's eating dinner at Douzo in Boston one table over from me at 9:15 PM, so I'm going to assume he's not going to be in the lineup tomorrow.
 

mabrowndog

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DaveRoberts'Shoes said:
He's eating dinner at Douzo in Boston one table over from me at 9:15 PM, so I'm going to assume he's not going to be in the lineup tomorrow.
 
Yeah, I saw reports earlier that his MRI is tomorrow morning in Boston. Then he'd have to get to Logan (or Bedford if it's a Phil-Collins-at-Live-Aid private charter out of Hanscom) for a 90-minute flight.
 
I highly doubt the Maryland State Police would be nearly as accommodating with an escort from BWI to Camden as Boston & Mass State Police were with Mirabelli's motorcade.
 

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The Gray Eagle said:
Victorino's day-to-day injury issues combined with Sizemore needing days off a lot, combined with Fenway's RF, makes it risky to not have Bradley on the roster. When you've got Sizemore and Victorino as your CF and RF, Bradley is the best fit with them. He would get plenty of playing time and his defense would be really helpful. But at this point, it's not going to happen unless Victorino goes on the DL.
 
If Bradley is in AAA, then get ready for some days with Nava in RF, and even the occasional horror show OF of Carp, Nava and Gomes all standing out there at the same time. If Sizemore needs the day off and Victorino is too banged up to play but isn't on the DL, then that is what you're looking at. That is going to be ugly and will cost runs. (Hey Herrera played 7 innings in LF last year, maybe he'd be better out there than those guys?)
 
I love Carp and don't want us to trade him (because no one will offer as much as we'd need to move him) but part of the cost of keeping him is the risk of that horror show outfield on occasion.
Good God, I'm not sure if I can watch that. I almost hope Victorino needs to be DL'd and JBJ comes up at this point.
 

Sampo Gida

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soxhop411 said:
 
Joon Lee ‏@iamjoonlee  23s
Source: Jackie Bradley Jr. is in Baltimore with the #RedSox. No pending move yet for Shane Victorino, who is still in Boston.
 
https://twitter.com/iamjoonlee/status/450480394929176577
 
If he goes on the DL would they do it "retroactively"?
 
 
Yeah, if they thought there was a chance he could return within 2 weeks, and even if they did not think so there is no harm in doing so.
 
JBJ could just be in Baltimore as a precaution in case the MRI shows something that dictates a DL stint, but I think the fact Victorino is in Boston for an MRI and is unlikely to make it to Baltimore for game time means the Red Sox think there is a good chance he may need to go on the DL. 
 

mabrowndog

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soxhop411 said:
If he goes on the DL would they do it "retroactively"?
 
Well, it would only be retroactive to when the injury occurred (3/29). So he'd still have to sit out the next 15 days, shelving him through April 13 including the entire Yankees series. The Sox are off 4/14 so he'd be eligible to return for the White Sox on Jackie Robinson Day.
 
In all, he'd miss 13 scheduled games.
 

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I've been hearing about this MRI for like 2 days now. Why is this taking so long? If he gets a clean bill of health tomorrow and the only reason he's not in Balt is because they took their sweet time putting him in the tube, I'm going to be ripsh!t.
 

The Mort Report

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Why is anyone concerned with Gomes and his contract?  The guy has been living off of one year deals his whole career, and suddenly we should be worried about his 2 year deal half way through and how he will react?  Say what you want about his defense or stats, but the dude knows his place, he even said as much in a recent article on ESPN Boston. Making a point to say he is worried about his playing time for his next contract would be equal to saying Bradenhop should be closing due to his contract status
 

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JBJ is in Baltimore. Vic isn't. I doubt we play with a 24 man roster for more than 1 game. I'm expecting a DL stint, its early in the season and hammy's are nagging injuries. They'll be cautious and get him right.
 

mabrowndog

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Likely not back until April 20th - 25th, per Pedro Gomez on Baseball Tonight.
 
If he's out through the 25th, that would be 24 games (15% of the season) including 14 vs the Yankees & Orioles.
 

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An interesting and not entirely unpredictable resolution, however temporary, in the whole Sizemore/JBJ/Carp/Nava debate. It seems clear that the depth can't hurt when it comes to decisions like this. Without all of the depth, perhaps a player like Victorino is pushed to play through borderline injuries, rather than take the DL stint. Hopefully he can return healthy and strong for the remainder of the season (and hopefully everyone else's health holds up for the next 2 - 3 weeks).
 

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ToeKneeArmAss said:
I like deep depth.
 
I like how this thread--which appeared inevitable--has rendered the CF thread totally pointless.
 
Point: Cherington
 

mabrowndog

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He's about a week away. Fingers crossed...
 
Ian Browne
 
 
Right fielder Shane Victorino, who started the season on the disabled list with a right hamstring strain, will start a Minor League rehab assignment on Saturday.
 
Victorino will most likely play at Triple-A Pawtucket. He will take a down day on Sunday, and then play again on Monday and Tuesday.
 
It's possible Victorino could be activated by Wednesday or Thursday, when the Red Sox finish their homestand against the Yankees.
 
If not, he should certainly be ready by April 25, when the Sox start a three-game series in Toronto.
 

normstalls

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With Victorino hopefully back later this week, any guesses as to the corresponding roster move?  
 
It seems a bit excessive to carry Nava, Gomes, JBJ, Sizemore and Victorino - but at this point I think I would prefer Carp as the odd man out.  Nava is off to a rough start, but I think he is better than we are seeing right now.
 
That gives you a bench of 2 OFs, 1 UI and a C.  Thin at 1b, but Nava can play there (probably as well as Carp).
Obviously sending JBJ down controls more assets and is an option, but  Sizemore appears to still be on scheduled rest and JBJ seems useful right now.  
 
Whats the best guess?
 

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normstalls said:
With Victorino hopefully back later this week, any guesses as to the corresponding roster move?  
 
It seems a bit excessive to carry Nava, Gomes, JBJ, Sizemore and Victorino - but at this point I think I would prefer Carp as the odd man out.  Nava is off to a rough start, but I think he is better than we are seeing right now.
 
That gives you a bench of 2 OFs, 1 UI and a C.  Thin at 1b, but Nava can play there (probably as well as Carp).
Obviously sending JBJ down controls more assets and is an option, but  Sizemore appears to still be on scheduled rest and JBJ seems useful right now.  
 
Whats the best guess?
 
The difference between now and the beginning of the season is that Nava looks like shit. We can expose him to waivers with much less risk of losing him.
 
Also, Bradley, Sizemore, Victorino and Gomes are all better than he is.
 

soxhop411

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Rasputin said:
 
The difference between now and the beginning of the season is that Nava looks like shit. We can expose him to waivers with much less risk of losing him.
 
Also, Bradley, Sizemore, Victorino and Gomes are all better than he is.
Nava still has one option left I thought? So he would not have to go through waivers?
 

normstalls

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If Nava goes down, do we then assume Sizemore becomes Gomes platoon partner?
That would appear to be a pretty solid defensive Outfield.
 
Sizemore/Gomes (LF) -- JBJ (CF) -- Victorino (RF)
 

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At this point, send Nava down, get him straightened out, buy more time for a decision on a more permanent roster move (or just wait for the next injury - knocking on wood quickly).
 

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soxhop411 said:
Nava still has one option left I thought? So he would not have to go through waivers?
 
Since it has been over three calendar years since his major league debut, he's required to pass through optional assignment waivers in order to be sent down.  It's customary that teams don't make claims on such players, in part because the waivers are revocable so the team can pull the player back.  Ras' assertion that his shitty play makes it easier to get through just adds to the confidence that optioning him will result in Nava going to Pawtucket.
 

mabrowndog

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I'm pretty sure Nava can't be sent down unless he clears optional assignment waivers. It's been over three years since his first appearance in the majors.
 
Yes, there's that "gentlemen's agreement" thing, and Nava's offensive struggles might deter some clubs, but there's no guarantee that some team won't take a chance on an OBP machine with a low price tag who hasn't even hit arbitration yet.
 
Nava could clearly use some tutelage to get his swing right, but there's definitely a risk involved. Then again, nobody claimed Bard, Hill or Atchison when they were optioned under similar circumstances.
 
EDIT- Errrr... what Red said.
 

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
Since it has been over three calendar years since his major league debut, he's required to pass through optional assignment waivers in order to be sent down.  It's customary that teams don't make claims on such players, in part because the waivers are revocable so the team can pull the player back.  Ras' assertion that his shitty play makes it easier to get through just adds to the confidence that optioning him will result in Nava going to Pawtucket.
 
 
mabrowndog said:
I'm pretty sure Nava can't be sent down unless he clears optional assignment waivers. It's been over three years since his first appearance in the majors.
 
Yes, there's that "gentlemen's agreement" thing, and Nava's offensive struggles might deter some clubs, but there's no guarantee that some team won't take a chance on an OBP machine with a low price tag who hasn't even hit arbitration yet.
 
Nava could clearly use some tutelage to get his swing right, but there's definitely a risk involved. Then again, nobody claimed Bard, Hill or Atchison when they were optioned under similar circumstances.
 
EDIT- Errrr... what Red said.
 
Interesting. Thanks to you both. I wasn't aware of this. I was going to create a "Can Daniel Nava Clear Waviers?" thread but deleted it once I saw he had an option remaining. 
 

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I wish the Sox had sold high during the offseason on either Carp or Nava.  If they had, there's a good chance they could have received something promising in return... now... not so much.
 

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soxhop411 said:
Nava still has one option left I thought? So he would not have to go through waivers?
 
This is what I thought before the season but people yelled at me saying that there was some kind of assfuck waivers that he'd have to be exposed to. I care about this game. I have read the balk rules multiple times. There is not enough life left in me to spend on working out the waiver rules especially when all I really care about is that we have the best players available to the major league roster on the major league roster. Nava is at best the fifth best outfielder once Victorino is healthy and I'm not entirely sure that Bryce Brentz isn't a better option.
 
Sizemore and Gomes in left, Bradley in center, Victorino in right. It's our best outfield configuration and that's been true since Sizemore survived spring training.
 

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Rasputin said:
 
Sizemore and Gomes in left, Bradley in center, Victorino in right. It's our best outfield configuration and that's been true since Sizemore survived spring training.
 
Nava has been terrible, and sending him down keeps the most assets in the organization.  So I am fine with that route. But as opposed to just clinging to the name of Grady Sizemore, it's worth looking at the numbers. Certainly in 2005-2008 he was elite, and in 2009 he was serviceable.  Since then....
 
2010
Games: 33  PA: 140  AVG: .211  OBP: .271  SLG: .289  OPS: .560  WAR: -0.3
 
2011
Games: 71  PA: 295  AVG: .224  OBP: .285  SLG: .422  OPS: .706  WAR: 0.1
 
2014
Games: 16  PA: 63   AVG: .228  OBP: .286  SLG: .368  OPS: .654  WAR: -0.4
 
 
It's not yet clear Sizemore is one of our 4 best outfielders going forward. That's a pretty bad 500 PA stretch over 5 years.  It's been a LONG time since he was any good. Certainly those stats are all small samples (and some of them were probably playing while injured), so I wouldn't say he is definitely finished.  He had a nice spring, and I think he should get more time (maybe until june?) to try and reclaim his old form.
 
But the Red Sox need to be realistic about him too. He is a bad defender now, so the guy is going to have to start hitting soon or he should be the odd man out eventually. 
 

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Yeah, Sizemore has a .413 OPS in his last 38 PA (cherrypicking I know). Nava has a .554 OPS in his last 8 games (39 PA). Both suck right now and I have no idea who is likely to be better going forward, but as stated many times Nava was really excellent last year, and he does have a .133 BABIP for the season.
 
I guess if Nava can clear waivers you send him down and push off the decision until later. If someone claims him and you have to pull him back, I have no idea.
 

Plympton91

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Yup. Since the first couple games Grady has been terrible, and it's not entirely clear that Jackie Bradley can hit major league pitching yet either.

Defense is nice and lacking in spades as a result of the purge of veterans this past offseason. But Nava's struggles are t the only reAson the offense sucked donkey balls this season too. Meanwhile Ellsbury stars on both sides of the ball for the Yankees and Drew sits idle as the all important draft pick looks increasingly unlikely to materialize.
 

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I see the proverbial "phantom injury" and trip to the 15 day DL for someone to clear room.  Need to think about WMB as well, someone will have to correspond move for that as well.  Brock has been playing his little heart out.  Herrera?
 

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mauidano said:
I see the proverbial "phantom injury" and trip to the 15 day DL for someone to clear room.  Need to think about WMB as well, someone will have to correspond move for that as well.  Brock has been playing his little heart out.  Herrera?
 
The corresponding move for WMB is easy, and it is optioning Holt back to Pawtucket.  With the utility spot once again being simply the utility spot (i.e. spot starts once or twice a week), defense matters more and Herrera is superior to Holt in that facet.
 

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
The corresponding move for WMB is easy, and it is optioning Holt back to Pawtucket.  With the utility spot once again being simply the utility spot (i.e. spot starts once or twice a week), defense matters more and Herrera is superior to Holt in that facet.
 
Not to mention the entire, who's the backup SS thing.
 
As for the outfield logjam, it's not as though we're trying to sift through a collection of diamonds here. If they decide to keep Bradley in the majors, I'd try to get Nava through that waiver process to get his swing worked out.
 

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E5 Yaz said:
 
Not to mention the entire, who's the backup SS thing.
 
As for the outfield logjam, it's not as though we're trying to sift through a collection of diamonds here. If they decide to keep Bradley in the majors, I'd try to get Nava through that waiver process to get his swing worked out.
 
Holt can play SS.  He's spent more time there than anywhere else as a minor leaguer, including 7 of his 12 games at Pawtucket this year.  He's just never been called on to do it as a big leaguer yet.  That being the case, Herrera is still the better defender and thus the better choice for the utility spot once WMB is healthy.
 

mabrowndog

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Rasputin said:
 
This is what I thought before the season but people yelled at me saying that there was some kind of assfuck waivers that he'd have to be exposed to.
 
If I'm ever named Commissioner of MLB, I make you this solemn promise: "Assfuck Waivers" will indeed be added to the Collective Bargaining Agreement. And it will be non-negotiable.