The too early for Midseason sox top 10 list

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Curious how people would rate people now. Betts is clearly 1. Owens and Swihart are 2,3 in any order, then there is a drop.

1. Betts
2, Owens
3. Swihart
4. Vazquez
5. Cecchini
6-8 Barnes/Ranaudo/Webster
9. Johnson
10. Marrero

So many interchangable guys after the top 3, Garin being the big disappointment, he could really be 8th but given his track record, I can't drop him that much.

Hopefully I didn't miss someone obvious. There is still a lot of depth with guys like Shaw, Brentz, Coyle, Rijo, Margot and the draftees.
 

Merkle's Boner

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2011
3,818
I think you need to put the guy who would be an American high school junior (!) in the top ten. Rafael Devers' start has been incredible.

1. Mookie
2. Owens
3. Swihart
4. Devers
5. Barnes
6. Cecchini
7. Rijo (4th youngest guy in the Sally League)
8. Vazquez
9. Marrero
10. Margot
 

mabrowndog

Ask me about total zone...or paint
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
39,676
Falmouth, MA
Merkle's Boner said:
I think you need to put the guy who would be an American high school junior (!) in the top ten. Rafael Devers' start has been incredible.

1. Mookie
2. Owens
3. Swihart
4. Devers
5. Barnes
6. Cecchini
7. Rijo (4th youngest guy in the Sally League)
8. Vazquez
9. Marrero
10. Margot
 
I think you need to wait until Devers has more than a few weeks of professional baseball experience. His start has been red hot, his pedigree is high, and he's certainly promising. But let's not get carried away.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,048
1. Betts
2. Owens
3. Swihart
4. Coyle
5. B. Johnson
6. Ranaudo
7. Gragnani
8. Witte
9.  Cecchini
10. Webster
11. Devers
 
 
 
I view prospects much more by what they actually accomplish on the field, as opposed to what tools or ability they might have, particularly when it comes to pitching. Although, I don't think my list is all that surprising, except maybe Witte, who seems to get no love around here, but has been mashing the ball all season. 
 

Quintanariffic

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2002
5,141
The City of Studios
Deathofthebambino said:
1. Betts
2. Owens
3. Swihart
4. Coyle
5. B. Johnson
6. Ranaudo
7. Gragnani
8. Witte
9.  Cecchini
10. Webster
11. Devers
 
 
 
I view prospects much more by what they actually accomplish on the field, as opposed to what tools or ability they might have, particularly when it comes to pitching. Although, I don't think my list is all that surprising, except maybe Witte, who seems to get no love around here, but has been mashing the ball all season. 
I guess I don't agree with much of this.  Just about any organization worth its salt, the Red Sox included, de-emphasize the use of stats in the lower minors (essentially below AA).    For all of scouting's faults, pedigree matters, until there's a body of evidence to prove otherwise.  
 
The reason Witte gets no love is because he's a 24 year old 1B (85% of his starts) in the Sally League with no pedigree (24th rd pick out of TCU) who did absolutely nothing last year in rookie ball (combined .492 OPS between the GCL and Lowell) to suggest there was a mis-evaluation.  Now perhaps he made some sort of mechanical adjustment in the off-season that we don't know about, and that explains his sudden emergence as a force to be reckoned with in Greenville.  Then again it might just be a few hundred hot ABs from a guy who is two years too old for the league (from a prospect perspective) and who would quickly turn back into a pumpkin once he faces age-appopriate competition.  
 
Why, for example, select Witte when his teammate Carlos Asuaje is 2 years younger, had a better pedigree (11th round pick out of a JuCo), held is own with a .368 OBP in Lowell last season, has more defensive versatility (starts at 3B, 2B, SS, and LF), has better peripherals (13% K rate vs. Witte at 20%; slightly better walk rate) and a better slash line this year (.312/.422/.564 vs Witte at .330/.418/.554) at an age appropriate level of competition?  Not sure how any evaluation system can conclude that Witte makes it on this list but Asuaje doesn't.  
 
Of course that misses the broader point that neither of them belong on the Top 10 list for the current Red Sox minor leagues.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,659
Melrose, MA
1. Betts
2. Owens
3. Swihart
4. Barnes
5. Johnson
6. Cecchini
7. Ranaudo
8. Webster
9. Vazquez
10. Marrero
 

EL Jeffe

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 30, 2006
1,325
Could somone more knowledgeable than me (which is basically anyone here) explain how the term "prospect" gets defined? For example, why does Webster count as a prospect but Workman and RDLR don't? Philosphically, I'd think those two should count, since they're young, cost controlled players who began the season in AAA and are only in the majors due to injuries (or ineffectiveness, as the case may be). To me, and I may be the only one, it's more interesting to include Workman and RDLR in the prospect lists, since in my eyes, they're still prospects. Is it semantics as to why they aren't included, or are there legit, meaningful distinctions that I'm missing?
 
So my bastardized list would be:
 
1. RDLR
2. Workman
3. Betts
4. Swihart
5. Owens
6. Webster
7. Ranaudo
8. Barnes
9. Devers
10. Johnson
 
Do people see Cecchini or Marrero being above replacement level MLB players?
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,659
Melrose, MA
Marrero is a virtual lock to have a major league career, since he is an elite defensive SS. The question for him is whether he will have the bat to stick at the position. He's having a decent offensive season in Portland thus far, which is promising.

I think his overall ceiling is limited (at best, the bat will be good enough to justify the elite glove), but he's not a bad bet to reach it.

Cecchini, too, is a good bet for a major league career, though he may never develop the power that would make him a real top prospect. His first major league hit was an opposite field double off the wall - Fenway tends to be kind to left handed hitter who can do that.

Workman and RDLR no longer have rookie status so they are "graduated" prospects.
 

Bigpupp

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 8, 2008
2,415
New Mexico
EL Jeffe said:
Could somone more knowledgeable than me (which is basically anyone here) explain how the term "prospect" gets defined? For example, why does Webster count as a prospect but Workman and RDLR don't? Philosphically, I'd think those two should count, since they're young, cost controlled players who began the season in AAA and are only in the majors due to injuries (or ineffectiveness, as the case may be). To me, and I may be the only one, it's more interesting to include Workman and RDLR in the prospect lists, since in my eyes, they're still prospects. Is it semantics as to why they aren't included, or are there legit, meaningful distinctions that I'm missing?
 
So my bastardized list would be:
 
1. RDLR
2. Workman
3. Betts
4. Swihart
5. Owens
6. Webster
7. Ranaudo
8. Barnes
9. Devers
10. Johnson
 
Do people see Cecchini or Marrero being above replacement level MLB players?
 
Some sites like SoxProspects use rookie eligibility (50 IP - 130 AB). Others, like BA, use service time. Either way, that's why guys like RDLR and Workman are no longer considered prospects.
 

SaveBooFerriss

twenty foreskins
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 9, 2001
6,179
Robin' it
Eddie Jurak said:
1. Betts
2. Owens
3. Swihart
4. Barnes
5. Johnson
6. Cecchini
7. Ranaudo
8. Webster
9. Vazquez
10. Marrero
 
I think this list is spot on, although I do not see much difference between Barnes, Johnson, Ranaudo and Webster and wouldn't argue with them in any order.   Devers is certainly #11 for me.  Chavis would be #12, with Ball, Margot and Rijo all just behind.  Coyle is the big riser, but injury history and sample size has to be considered.   
 

EL Jeffe

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 30, 2006
1,325
Eddie Jurak said:
Marrero is a virtual lock to have a major league career, since he is an elite defensive SS. The question for him is whether he will have the bat to stick at the position. He's having a decent offensive season in Portland thus far, which is promising.

I think his overall ceiling is limited (at best, the bat will be good enough to justify the elite glove), but he's not a bad bet to reach it.

Cecchini, too, is a good bet for a major league career, though he may never develop the power that would make him a real top prospect. His first major league hit was an opposite field double off the wall - Fenway tends to be kind to left handed hitter who can do that.

Workman and RDLR no longer have rookie status so they are "graduated" prospects.
Appreciate the insight. What's your take on how Marerro profiles with the bat vs. Iglesias at a similar stage?
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
I view Marrero as almost a direct comp to Adam Everett.  Pretty big college program, similar skill sets.  Everett also had a good AA year while being a year younger than Marrero at that level.
 
There is reason to hope Marrero will have a bit more pop than Everett, but it's worth noting that Everett had a long major league career without ever really hitting well.
 

Mugsy's Jock

Eli apologist
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2000
15,106
UWS, NYC
SaveBooFerriss said:
 
I think this list is spot on, although I do not see much difference between Barnes, Johnson, Ranaudo and Webster and wouldn't argue with them in any order.   Devers is certainly #11 for me.  Chavis would be #12, with Ball, Margot and Rijo all just behind.  Coyle is the big riser, but injury history and sample size has to be considered.   
I was going to echo the support for Coyle, whose performance when healthy has been ridiculous -- and this year he's been pretty healthy.  That said, I have a hard time figuring out who to bump out from the top tens submitted here.
 
Injury history aside, why wouldn't Coyle be at least the equal of Marrero?  Certainly seems like he could have higher upside.
 
All that said... a farm system where a big-hitting infielder like Coyle isn't in the top ten is something to behold.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Coyle missed a bunch of time this year due to injury. That coupled with no position hurts him, but he can hit for power and steals well.

If he can stay on the field the rest of the year and maintain his production, he'll be in the top 10 EOY.

Devers, Rijo, and a bunch of others could rise quickly too.
 

DaubachmanTurnerOD

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
672
FWIW, both Fangraphs and BP in the last day or two have stated that Swihart, as a good defensive catcher with a solid hit tool, is a better prospect than Betts.
 

Drek717

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 23, 2003
2,542
For me it would be the following:
1. Betts - Obviously.
 
2. Swihart - Swihart over Owens to me because if Swihart ends up being a consistent .800+ OPS catcher with good D Owens would need to be the next Kershaw to be as valuable.
 
3. Owens
 
4. Ranaudo - there is still a ton of raw talent here to be tapped, but I think he's shown enough progression at AAA this season to be considered a damn good reliever at worst, with the potential to be an elite starter still hanging out there.
 
5. Webster - Same as Ranaudo.  His command has come a long way this year in AAA at least.  He might end up a bullpen guy if it stalls where he's at now but I would expect him to be a damn good bullpen guy if that was the case.
 
6. Garin Cecchini - Maybe I'm too optimistic but I think Garin's struggles in May now creeping in to June is something he'll correct against.  He's too capable a hitter not to get his average back up.  I still think Bill Mueller is a good comp for him, assuming he takes the steps forward defensively he needs.  I also am of the belief that good contact hitters like Cecchini are the guys most likely to see a nice power jump upon hitting the majors, and when Cecchini is going right he's got the kind of swing to go opposite field against the monster with regularity, further padding those numbers.  He hasn't kept up the pace he had last year, but if he had he'd be #4 on this list, competing with 2 and 3.  Being a little overwhelmed at AAA when you're 23 and only had 240 ABs in AA last year isn't anything to get chicken little over.
 
7. Brian Johnson - I've felt like Johnson was the farm system's top sleeper since he finished his first full season in Greenville with a 2.87 ERA and a 9.00 K/9.  I think he's a lot like Workman in that they're both big workhorse collegians with good but not scout charming stuff who really know how to pitch.  Johnson more so than Workman age relative.  He's also a lefty, so he's got that going for him.  In total I think he's going to surprise some people.
 
8. Christian Vazquez - The glove is too legit to not make the list, and the bat looks good enough to tolerate.  He might end up as a career journeyman catcher or he might be the next Yadi Molina if he takes a few more important steps (namely offensively), either way he's definitely going to play for a good while in the majors.  The only reason I put him this far down the list is the heavy slant towards him being closer to his floor than his ceiling.
 
9. Matt Barnes - I'm not as high on Barnes as Ranaudo or Webster.  Personally I just don't see the repetoire as his secondary curve isn't as developed as Ranaudo and he lacks the secondary arsenal of Webster.  I think as a starter he'll cap out as a back end of the rotation guy and more than likely won't be able to stick in the rotation period.  As a reliever however I think his ability to reach back for a few more MPH on the fastball and the reduced need for a broader pitch arsenal could result in him finding Papelbon-like success as a late innings guy.  That is the main reason he hangs on to stick in my top 10.
 
10. Sean Coyle - I go Coyle over Marrero because of the difference in floor and ceiling.  Marrero's floor is Pokey Reese, Adam Everett is a nice mid-tier comp and his ceiling is probably something like Omar Vizquel.  Meanwhile Coyle's floor is a guy who doesn't make it out of AAA but his ceiling is David Wright.  To me when talking prospects a higher ceiling trumps a higher floor.
 
I would put Marrero #11 and Travis Shaw as #12 given how strong he's bounced back in the AZ Fall League and into this season.  While I don't think Shaw quite deserves a top 10 nod there is a real good chance he's going to be Napoli's replacement come 2016.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
Quintanariffic said:
Why, for example, select Witte when his teammate Carlos Asuaje is 2 years younger, had a better pedigree (11th round pick out of a JuCo), held is own with a .368 OBP in Lowell last season, has more defensive versatility (starts at 3B, 2B, SS, and LF), has better peripherals (13% K rate vs. Witte at 20%; slightly better walk rate) and a better slash line this year (.312/.422/.564 vs Witte at .330/.418/.554) at an age appropriate level of competition?  Not sure how any evaluation system can conclude that Witte makes it on this list but Asuaje doesn't.  
 
Of course that misses the broader point that neither of them belong on the Top 10 list for the current Red Sox minor leagues.
Actually, I thought you just made a great case for Asuaje, if not for the top 10, at least for perhaps being the most underrated prospect in the system right now.
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
1. Mookie Betts -- average, power, plate discipline, speed, ability to play multiple positions. Has to be number 1.

2. Owens -- lefthanded pitcher dominating AA at young age and showing increase in control without a loss of strikeouts.

3. Swihart -- Can really ask for anything more at this point, though plate discipline has been a bit weak and weaker than in the past. So, keeping him below the top 2.

4. Devers -- the massive signing bonus plus the production and advanced approach at youngest possible age launches him to #4 on potential

Much Bigger Dropoff Here Than Implied By Moving From 4 To 5

5. Manuel Margot -- very young for Greenville and showing good power and great speed while holding his average and OBP at respectable levels. Again going for ceiling over floor.

6. Garin Cecchini -- Dropping him a lot from my pre-season rankings based on lack of power and 6 week slump, combined with less than stellar reports of his defense. Probably putting too much emphasis on his first real struggle as a professional. But also continues to struggle with lefthanders, making him perhaps a platoon player at least early on.

7. Alan Webster -- Of the pitchers on the Pawtucket - Boston shuttle retaining prospect eligibility, I like him the best. Has improved his command and has plus sinker to go with velocity. I think his floor is a power reliever, and that's a good floor to have.

8. Sean Coyle -- All the guy does is hit; but, where does he play for Boston?

9. Matt Barnes -- Having an injury-filled and rocky adjustment to AAA; like Webster, however, he seems likely to have a career as a reliever at a minimum.

10t. Bryce Brentz -- Forgotten man due to injury, but had a good spring training and was showing improved walk rate before getting hurt. Has the power and the RH bat that the team needs in the outfield, so opportunity knocks.


10t. Christian Vazquez -- Continues to dazzle on defense and maintain decent OBP skills, but power failing to develop as hoped.

Biggest Faller: Drake Britton -- Went from the cusp of the Boston bullpen to the back of the Pawtucket bullpen with renewed control problems and drop in strikeout rate.
 

billy ashley

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,230
Washington DC
1 & 2: Probably big leaguers with the potential to be exceptional
 
1. Mookie Betts:
 
Mookie’s surge up the rankings over the past 2 years has been a hell of a fun thing to watch. His first season in Lowell, he showed an excellent approach, but had zero power. He also was a butcher at SS. A few people liked him as a sleeper, but to most, he was just another guy. The possible hurdles for Betts are that we don’t know where he will play, but he’s super athletic and well regarded at 2b. I think it’s reasonable to assume that the power won’t translate completely as he moves to the majors, but he should still be good for 10 homers a year. A guy with a plus hit skill, a ton of walks, in CF or middle infield, and below average but not nothing power is a hell of a player.
 
2. Blake Swihart:
 
I wish more people were making the argument for him being number 1. I think there is a real debate to be had here. Swihart was a highly regarded HS draftee who it was thought, might be able to stay at catcher, but might have to move off because of size and questions about defensive skills (he was seen as very athletic). Those questions have been answered. He’s a very good defensive catcher. There are some (I forget few, and it’s a definitely minority) people who’ve claimed that they prefer Swihart to Vazquez, despite Swihart not having as loud of a good as Vazquez’ arm. On offense, the only real knock you could hold against Swihart was that he hadn’t shown much in game power. This season, his ISO is .195, so that seems to not be a concern at present time. His BB rate has dropped a good bit this season, but he’s also in his first run at AA, and posting a wRC+ of 124, while 21 at the start of the season. Assuming he’s an above average defensive catcher, and the BB rate creeps back up, he could be a hell of a player.
 
3 & 4: Probably big leaguers with controversial talent levels
 
3. Henry Owens
Henry Owens has been statistically dominant at every stage of his minor league career, while being incredibly young compared to his competition at every step along the way. The knock on Owens is that while everyone agrees his changeup is excellent,  there are questions about his curve ball and fastball command. Still very young, there’s some projection, but Owens sits in the low 90s. He’s very likely to get a cup of coffee sometime next season, but the questions about his stuff and command sound like the most likely projection is one of a back end starter. However, statistically, again, he’s looked a lot better than that. Some analysts have thrown a number 2 ceiling on him, which seems fair, given what he’s done at a young age. If he tightens up his command and adds a little velocity, the sky is the limit, but he could also fail to translate his success into the majors if he’s done developing.
 
4. Garin Cecchini
 
We all know why Cecchini is clustered here. The guy may not be a 3b (though reports are that he’s looking better there this season), and even if he is, he’ll likely max out at average. Additionally, he’s never shown any in game power. On the other hand, the guy can hit. Forgetting this season for a moment, he walked more than he struck out between high A and AA last season, while posting averages of .350 and .296 at both levels. His BB rate has always been high, even during his struggles this season. While I agree that his defense will likely hold him back from being excellent, I do think he can be a first division starter at 3B. I still think (hope?) the power will show up.
 
5-8 Pitching, Pitching, Pitching
 
5: Allen Webster
 
Has stuff we can all dream on. Also has poor command. Still relatively young, but his window may be closing as an SP, if he doesn’t break in next year. Could possibly be “effectively wild” if given the job. Could also be destined for the pen.
 
6: Anthony Ranaudo
 
Kind of fits the Owens/Cecchini category. Some evaluators have been very harsh over the past year and a half, while others think his recent success is real and a result of finally being healthy. He’s probably got the second lowest ceiling of the pitchers in this grouping (ahead of Johnson), but his command is better than Webster and he’s had more recent success than Barnes.
 
7: Matt Barnes
 
Excellent fastball, questionable secondary pitchers may lead to the bull pen (everyone in this group may ultimately be relievers). Still he’s been very durable, and before this year was raking up Ks. Both Ranaudo and he have excellent pedigrees, and both should be getting cups of coffee between this August and next season.
 
8: Brian Johnson
 
Our best power bat drafted in 2012 (not kidding that was a really shallow draft class). Johnson was seen as a low ceiling high floor pick with little project ability but a solid base of skills. When not getting liners off the face, he’s been really good. Additionally, he’s shown a little more velocity than what was reported at draft time (he sits in the low 90s, but occasionally airs it out at 95).
 
Exciting but far away 9 & 10
 
9: Michael Chavis:
 
Bat speed compared to Clint Fraizer. Projects to have average to better power. Seen as the second best pure hitter by some in the past draft class. Chavis may not be a SS but he’s reportedly more athletic than you’d think, given his somewhat stocky frame. Some evaluators think he would be an excellent 2B or 3B, others even floated the idea of him catching. Unlike last year’s first rounder,  Trey Ball, Chavis is more of a polished product, despite also being a high schooler.
 
10. Rafael Devers
 
Swing gets comped to Cano. DSL statistics are generally meaningless, but he dominated, hitting more home runs than several teams in the league. Devers was promoted to the GCL. There are of course questions about where he ends up playing, reports are that he’s not a bad athlete, but he’s huge and likely to fill out to the point that he won’t be able to handle 3b. Obviously a move LF or 1b would put a ton of pressure on his bat, but his bat is why he got a huge bonus in the first place.
 
Guys who could be reasonably argued should be included instead of Chavis/Devers:
 
Marrero- his defense alone makes him a prospect. The bat hasn’t been bad this year, either
Vasquez-Will have a major league career. May be a back-up.
Margot- Holding his own in Greenville, despite being very young. Athletic centerfielder with plus speed and promising contact skills and possible more than below average power.
Rijo- Extremely young and holding his own in Greenville. Between Pedroia, Betts, Chavis, Rijo, and Coyle there are a lot of 2B in the org.
Coyle- Health has been an issues, also strikes out a lot. Still relatively young for his competition and still flashing some very nice power numbers.
Ball- Was a project when drafted. Struggling in Greenville, but that was expected. Ball is very high risk/high reward. What they liked about him is presumably still there and being worked on, but results will be slow, if they happen at all.
 
Guys I like beyond:
 
Kopeck- 14 draftee with big arm, messy mechanics
Ramos- Physically gifted raw OF who was finally putting it together this season before getting hurt
Callahan- Awful results, but like Ball, an intriguing project. Very young for his level
Gunkel- low ceiling guy when drafted who throws strikes. He’s been excellent. Future may still be in pen, but he’s more of a prospect than we could have hoped for
Asuaje- Hitting like crazy in Greenville. College draftee with no loud skills, but seems to do a lot of things well. Possible utility man, maybe second division starter one day.
Longhi- 1b/LF drafted and overslotted last year. He’s at Lowell and worth following
The entire Salem Rotation is interesting. Almost as interesting as the offense is boring.
 
 

billy ashley

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,230
Washington DC
Jebus...

Ok, he hasn't been promoted yet. Ben Badler of Baseball American seems to think it'll happen sometime over the next 48 hours. Can we focus on one of the 900 other non DSL words in that post or maybe discuss prospects instead of quibbling over one small freak'n oversight that may not actually be an oversight.