The Sports Fanatacism Is Fundamentally Dumb Except For When I Do it Game Thread

Dogman

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The Allented Mr Ripley said:
 
Didn't you send a sternly worded letter to Johnny Damon for the unforgivable sin of accepting a higher offer than what the Red Sox presented?
 
Worse, he sent his wife and kids Damon jerseys back to Damon for treason.
 

Marciano490

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Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
Not sure where to post this:
 
seahawks.com official homepage, right sidebar with stories/headline , top item:
Chris Matthews went from practice squad receiver to Super Bowl hero
 
Obligatory:  huh.....?
 
Well, Gen. Lee lost, too.
 

SMU_Sox

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Omar's Wacky Neighbor said:
Not sure where to post this:
 
seahawks.com official homepage, right sidebar with stories/headline , top item: Chris Matthews went from practice squad receiver to Super Bowl hero
 
Obligatory:  huh.....?
I don't see the problem with saying this. He was a sports hero even in a close loss. He was a huge part of their offense.
 

Marciano490

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Papelbon's Poutine said:
 
Wait, you actually did this? 
 
In fairness, he had two well-placed sources who told him that the letter might make Damon reconsider and stay with the Sox.
 

TheoShmeo

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Dogman2, nice to see you getting it wrong once again. 
 
No treason.  These were just shirts we didn't need (wearing the shirt of a current Yankee wasn't in the cards) and the chance to tweak Damon given how bummed out my wife and kids were. 
 
That it got a reaction from Damon was the noteworthy and surprising part, and the reason why I shared the story.  I was pretty stunned when his guy called me and doubly stunned at how much effort he put into stating Johnny's case...detailed description of the wooing process, how much he didn't want Sox fans to be upset, etc. 
 
Of course it is not a surprise when athletes leave for more money. It happens all the time. It happened with Papelbon.  And Jon Lester.  And many other guys.  It may happen again with Revis.  None of that is treason.
 
What made Damon different, obviously, was that he had said rather specifically in his book that he would not do that, and yeah, that it was the Yankees of all teams.
 
Et tu, Marciano?  Actually, that was pretty damned funny.   
 

8slim

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I'm the rare New Englander who really likes college sports, and a big reason is the traditions that go along with it.  Most people I grew up with find things like fight songs and chants corny, but I dig that stuff.  So I should like the "12"... but I don't, I hate it, and I've realized why... 
 
Before Red Sox Nation became a brand it was a way of describing a large, passionate fan base that loved it's team.  The "12" goes beyond that, these people think they are part of the team.  They believe that they are in some way responsible for the Seahawks success.  "We cheer, like, really, really loud.  That's why we win!"  
 
I mean, that is obnoxious.
 

TheoShmeo

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I'd be interested in the opinions of other people who were at the game on following. 
 
My sense was that while the Seahawks fans clearly outnumbered Pats fans at the game, that the noise they were making had zero effect.  Meaning that it was never so loud as to provide any obstacle to the Patriots while on offense.  Whether having only, say, 60% of the Stadium as Seattle fans, or being in a stadium that is not configured like the one in Seattle, the "12" were not a factor in the way home fans often are -- by being so loud as to disrupt the other team.  Now admittedly I was sitting way upstairs so maybe I was too far away to know...but noise seemed like a nothing issue to me on Sunday night.    
 

The Tax Man

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I agree with you Theo but I was also upstairs in a predominantly Pats fan section.  The Seahawks fans were definitely louder but not enough to have an effect on the game.    
 

8slim

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The notion that the Seahawks fans contribute meaningfully to the team's success because they create some impossibly difficult environment to play in is so ludicrous that it deserves every bit of scorn and mocking as we can muster.  Seattle has a good home record because (1) every team wins more at home than on the road, and (2) they are a really good team.
 
Seattle was 7-1 at home this year during the regular season.  Five other teams were either 7-1 or 8-0, including of the Pats, Lions and Cardinals.  Of course we all remember those gushing segments on TV about that crazed atmosphere in Arizona that single-handedly powered the Cards to the playoffs... oh wait, no, there were no such segments because that's crazy talk.
 
Teams that had as good or better home record than Seattle in 2013 included such renown places to play as Cincinnati and Carolina.
 
Somehow when Seattle had back-to-back 7-9 seasons in 2010 and 2011 they only were 9-7 at home.  Not sure how that's possible, how could NINE teams overcome such a mighty force as the 12?!?!
 

IdiotKicker

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If I ever win anything, the shirt I wear is going to say, "The guy I beat was really fucking good."

But my boxers will say, "And I'm fucking better."
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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TheoShmeo said:
I'd be interested in the opinions of other people who were at the game on following. 
 
My sense was that while the Seahawks fans clearly outnumbered Pats fans at the game, that the noise they were making had zero effect.  Meaning that it was never so loud as to provide any obstacle to the Patriots while on offense.  Whether having only, say, 60% of the Stadium as Seattle fans, or being in a stadium that is not configured like the one in Seattle, the "12" were not a factor in the way home fans often are -- by being so loud as to disrupt the other team.  Now admittedly I was sitting way upstairs so maybe I was too far away to know...but noise seemed like a nothing issue to me on Sunday night.    
The Pats used a silent count the entire game until Brady drew the encroachment at the end of the game. Even if they didn't need to use it, the threat alone was enough to make the Patriots prepare differently.
 

TheoShmeo

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I don't think anyone would argue that home fans contribute meaningfully to their team's success.  Little things like having better players clearly matter infinitely more.
 
That said, I think when it's extraordinarily loud in a building, that it can make it harder for a visiting offense to run its offense.  We've all seen false starts, teams having to repeat play calls and other impacts based on noise.  I haven't been to many road games when it was all that noticeable but I have been to some.  The Pats-Ravens game in 2007 when Sexy Rexy's time-out bailed out the Pats was one such game, as I recall the Pats being hurried or otherwise impacted -- at least seemingly -- by the noise on more than one occasion.
 

Reverend

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
The Pats used a silent count the entire game until Brady drew the encroachment at the end of the game. Even if they didn't need to use it, the threat alone was enough to make the Patriots prepare differently.
 
That's fucking hilarious. How has this not been more widely pointed out?
 

soxfan121

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Chuck Z said:
If I ever win anything, the shirt I wear is going to say, "The guy I beat was really fucking good."

But my boxers will say, "And I'm fucking better."
 
I know what someone's getting for Kwanza next year.
 

Revkeith

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TheoShmeo said:
I don't think anyone would argue that home fans contribute meaningfully to their team's success.  Little things like having better players clearly matter infinitely more.
 
That said, I think when it's extraordinarily loud in a building, that it can make it harder for a visiting offense to run its offense.  We've all seen false starts, teams having to repeat play calls and other impacts based on noise.  I haven't been to many road games when it was all that noticeable but I have been to some.  The Pats-Ravens game in 2007 when Sexy Rexy's time-out bailed out the Pats was one such game, as I recall the Pats being hurried or otherwise impacted -- at least seemingly -- by the noise on more than one occasion.
 
The stadium does make a difference. I was at a college football game earlier this year at CenturyLink, and even though the stadium was about 40% full, it got really loud at times.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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There is no Rev said:
 
That's fucking hilarious. How has this not been more widely pointed out?
I forget where I heard/read it, but Brady mentioned it in one of the million interviews. Something about usually going on 2, but knowing the situation - and using the silent count all game - he opted for going on three.

Its like this team is very well coached and executes perfectly, or something.
 

E5 Yaz

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There is no Rev said:
 
That's fucking hilarious. How has this not been more widely pointed out?
 
Because it's not the narrative
 

Dogman

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TheoShmeo said:
Dogman2, nice to see you getting it wrong once again. 
 
No treason.  These were just shirts we didn't need (wearing the shirt of a current Yankee wasn't in the cards) and the chance to tweak Damon given how bummed out my wife and kids were. 
 
That it got a reaction from Damon was the noteworthy and surprising part, and the reason why I shared the story.  I was pretty stunned when his guy called me and doubly stunned at how much effort he put into stating Johnny's case...detailed description of the wooing process, how much he didn't want Sox fans to be upset, etc. 
 
Of course it is not a surprise when athletes leave for more money. It happens all the time. It happened with Papelbon.  And Jon Lester.  And many other guys.  It may happen again with Revis.  None of that is treason.
 
What made Damon different, obviously, was that he had said rather specifically in his book that he would not do that, and yeah, that it was the Yankees of all teams.
 
Et tu, Marciano?  Actually, that was pretty damned funny.   
 
 
Ok.  Damon jerseys are not the same as Damon shirts. Mea culpa.  
 
I do have a PM from you calling it treason though. 
 
After all of your 'inside source info' and this Damon story, it's funny reading you calling out people as wrong. 
 

Ralphwiggum

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I thought I had read that even on the encroachment they still went with the silent count. They had typically snapped the ball after two Stork head-bobs, on that play he looked back down an extra time. I have read so much stuff about this game that I easily could be wrong, though.
 

Carlos Cowart

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Only three pages? Come on, we're better than this! Do you think Phil Donahue would quit self-flagelating and imagining misogyny after just 3 pages if a Chicago Bear held up a shirt someone handed him with the word butch on it? No! No he wouldn't, and we shouldn't either! The time for celebrating is over and now is the time to take those classless assholes down a peg and force a twitter apology! I wish we could enjoy the moment a bit longer, but someone bullied Marshawn Lynch and perhaps hurt his feelings, so. I'm sorry, now we have to get serious.
 
I suggest we start a crowd funded-charity for bullied running backs. I'm going to throw out the first salvo and suggest "Words matter" for marketing purposes, and then we can all post ourselves saying "I'm just here so I don't get fined" on Facebook to show our solidarity to this bullied kid.
 
For fuck's sake, people, it's 2015! Why are we still allowing the hateful taunting of NFL running backs?!!
 

nattysez

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There was a time, I think it was the late 80s/early 90s, where crowd noise was a major issue in the NFL, to the point that teams actually got flagged if their fans were so loud that the opposing QB couldn't call his plays.  I could be making this up, but I feel like I remember Boomer Esiason trying to get the Pats flagged during a game because the crowd was too loud.  
 
Now it's considered this major competitive advantage for Seattle and the league isn't doing anything about it even though 20 years ago, Seattle's crowd noise would be considered cheating.  Funny how times change.  
 

TFP

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
I forget where I heard/read it, but Brady mentioned it in one of the million interviews. Something about usually going on 2, but knowing the situation - and using the silent count all game - he opted for going on three.
Its like this team is very well coached and executes perfectly, or something.
They stayed with the silent count. But they went with 3 head bobs from Stork rather than 2 for the first time all game.

It's even better than the hard count in my eyes. It ensures none of the Pats will jump and almost guarantees they will.
 

IdiotKicker

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The Four Peters said:
They stayed with the silent count. But they went with 3 head bobs from Stork rather than 2 for the first time all game.
It's even better than the hard count in my eyes. It ensures none of the Pats will jump and almost guarantees they will.
Three Head Bobs From Stork is either a great name for a punk band or someone's secret fantasy.
 

TrotWaddles

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Ralphwiggum said:
I thought I had read that even on the encroachment they still went with the silent count. They had typically snapped the ball after two Stork head-bobs, on that play he looked back down an extra time. I have read so much stuff about this game that I easily could be wrong, though.
Looking at my DVR copy (which will remain until the DVR is obsolete or the house burns down) on the encroachment play, it looks like Bennett is leaning forward trying to time it. Brady twitches his left hand appears to tap Stork on the left leg and that's when Bennett cheats forward. No way Bennett doesn't try that at any rate.
 

kotrp83

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TheoShmeo said:
I'd be interested in the opinions of other people who were at the game on following. 
 
My sense was that while the Seahawks fans clearly outnumbered Pats fans at the game, that the noise they were making had zero effect.  Meaning that it was never so loud as to provide any obstacle to the Patriots while on offense.  Whether having only, say, 60% of the Stadium as Seattle fans, or being in a stadium that is not configured like the one in Seattle, the "12" were not a factor in the way home fans often are -- by being so loud as to disrupt the other team.  Now admittedly I was sitting way upstairs so maybe I was too far away to know...but noise seemed like a nothing issue to me on Sunday night.    
As I was a guest of some Seattle folks I was right in the middle of Seahawk fans.  Myself and the woman in front of me (both of us with Bruschi jerseys) were the only Pats fans that I really saw until the whole section ran for the exits after the Butler pick.  It was very loud but I thought it was kind of cool to hear the 12's because you could tell it was having no impact on Brady as he drove the team down the field, so they kept ratcheting it up.   On the go ahead drive they started to turn on each other: louder!! scream louder!!! and admonishing anyone who wasn't  freaking out.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The Four Peters said:
They stayed with the silent count. But they went with 3 head bobs from Stork rather than 2 for the first time all game.

It's even better than the hard count in my eyes. It ensures none of the Pats will jump and almost guarantees they will.
Ah, there you go. I was almost right. Which is almost as good as being right.

But not.
 

Leather

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I bet these "12" people also continuously hit the "up" elevator button in the lobby until the door finally opens, and then congratulate themselves.
 

Carlos Cowart

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I used to be upset about the '85 Bears crushing the Pats in the SB but am now OK with it because nobody had the chance to call Refrigerator Perry a sissy, (which is derivative of "sister" and misogynistic), Had the Pats won, that would have been a very hurtful thing to say. Sissy. Imagine.
 

CaptainLaddie

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Seattle's "12th man" is supposed to have a major effect on the game, right?  Causing problems with pre-snap offensive calls?
 
# of False Start penalties on opposing offense:
2014 - 14 (t-27th with 4 teams) (8 at home)
2013 - 17 (17th) (12 at home)
2012 - 23 (t-8th with 3 teams) (10 at home)
2011 - 17 (t-24th with 4 teams) (8 at home)
2010 - 21 (t-15th with 4 teams) (12 at home)
2009 - 21 (t-15th with 3 teams) (17 at home, which is actually kind of impressive)
 
# of Delay of Game penalties on opposing offense:
2014 - 3 (t-20th with 7 teams) (2 at home)
2013 - 6 (t-7th with 8 teams) (5 at home)
2012 - 6 (t-2nd with 7 teams) (4 at home)
2011 - 3 (t-17th with 8 teams) (2 at home)
2010 - 12 (1ST!!!!!! OH MY GOD!!!! WE DID IT!!!!!!!) (7 at home)
2009 - 5 (t-10th with 6 teams) (3 at home)
 
So fucking stupid.  SO FUCKING STUPID.
 
(Unless I somehow misread "beneficiary of penalties wrong on nflpenalties.com", and in that case, I'm the fucking stupid one.)
 
And yes, these are season-long stats.  I'm not going to break it down, but unless road offenses are just INCREDIBLE against Seattle's D about not drawing penalties...
 
EDIT: did the math.  In general?  Slightly above 56% for home false starts and about 65% for delay of game.  Maybe I'll get bored later and break that out against the rest of the league.
 

Leather

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...hitting the "walk" button at intersections over and over again...
 

Reverend

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
I forget where I heard/read it, but Brady mentioned it in one of the million interviews. Something about usually going on 2, but knowing the situation - and using the silent count all game - he opted for going on three.

Its like this team is very well coached and executes perfectly, or something.
 
The Four Peters said:
They stayed with the silent count. But they went with 3 head bobs from Stork rather than 2 for the first time all game.

It's even better than the hard count in my eyes. It ensures none of the Pats will jump and almost guarantees they will.
 
Wow. This is like the declared in/eligible sequence they broke out when they needed it. So, they apparently had this in their back pocket in case they absolutely needed a few yards on a penalty.
 
This is crazy level of preparation and planning. Even by the standards to which we have become accustomed.
 

K.C.R.E.A.M.

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pappymojo said:
Has any other professional sports team in America retired a number that didn't correlate directly to an actual player?
One basketball team did so twice...

Edit; I meant the Celtics.
http://www.nba.com/celtics/history/RetiredNumbers.html
I was trying to be clever about it but apparently underestimated Miami's lameness. In fairness, retiring non-player numbers due to death and winning 15 (at the time) rings is vastly more defensible than as a marketing gimmick.
 

phrenile

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K.C.R.E.A.M. said:
One basketball team did so twice...
Sure, but lots of NBA teams have retired numbers for coaches and owners.

If you want special, the Magic and the Kings have both retired #6 for "the fans". It's the Magic's only retired number, and it isn't even for an identifiable human being.
 

TheoShmeo

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Dogman2 said:
 
 
Ok.  Damon jerseys are not the same as Damon shirts. Mea culpa.  
 
I do have a PM from you calling it treason though. 
 
After all of your 'inside source info' and this Damon story, it's funny reading you calling out people as wrong. 
I don't recall that PM but if I used that word, it was meant as shorthand.  My views on Damon are as described above. 
 
As to what I was passing on, call it what you wish.  I was relaying what I was hearing and thought others might be interested.  I don't actually think that many people are calling me out for being wrong.  But if they are, no problem here as I have nothing invested in being right.
 
CaptainLaddie said:
Seattle's "12th man" is supposed to have a major effect on the game, right?  Causing problems with pre-snap offensive calls?
 
From what I've read, the impact of crowd noise is a general intimidation factor that pushes referees to call more penalties in favor of the home team. There was a research paper demonstrating this for (the other kind of) Football in the UK (link), but I would imagine the concept applies to any sport where a loud, boisterous home crowd could influence the ref (basketball, football, baseball).

Where did you get those penalty stats? I imagine the way to test this hypothesis would be to look at the total number of penalties called for/against the Seahawks, broken down to compare home games vs. away games
 

Freddy Linn

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The single game that really fueled the now outsized ego of the 12th man was this one, where the Giants had 11 false start penalties, three missed field goals, and lost in OT.  Seahawks go on to be the #1 seed, win a playoff game for the first time in twelve years, and reach the Super Bowl.
 
In that opening half, the Giants' slanting and scheming defense throttled the Seahawks' top-ranked offense. New York followed Dallas' successful script of last month by shoving as many as nine defenders close to the line of scrimmage against NFL rushing leader Shaun Alexander, daring Seattle to win through the air.
 
But New York led only 10-7 at that point, largely because of 11 penalties. The Giants ended with 16 flags for 114 yards, their most in 56 years. That included an amazing 11 flags for false starts -- five against left tackle Luke Petitgout and three against left guard David Diehl.
 
Diehl said the raucous crowd at sold-out Qwest Field made him do it.
 
"This is the loudest it's been [on the road]," Diehl said.
 
 
The place is ridiculously loud, but the effectiveness of silent counts after years of practice has drastically reduced the potentially devastating impact of crowd noise.
 

Dehere

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I think the whole 12s thing with Seattle traces back to some of the teams they had under Holmgren that won a lot but were boring as hell. Those Matt Hasselbeck/Shaun Alexander teams had no personality at all and no national following and so the networks seized on the volume in the stadium and the 12s as a narrative. If you can't promote the players, promote the fans. Now of course Seattle has one of the most colorful teams in the league but the whole mythology of the 12s is entrenched and disconnected from their actual impact on games.
 

Devizier

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During my time in Seattle, my impression was the "12th man" was just a hokey thing to promote fan interest in a team that historically didn't have much.
 
Keep in mind that until Rick Neuheisel got busted for gambling, UW was the big fucking deal in football.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Pxer said:
You should see them organize a soccer game.
 
If you're being serious, I agree.  Sounders fans are fantastic, and marching to the match up there is about as good as it gets in the U.S. for a soccer game, rivaled really only by Portland.
 
My wife and I were driving through the pac northwest in the fall of 1995, and happened to be near Seattle when the Mariners were playing the Yankees in the playoffs.  We scalped tickets for a couple of games, and I came away with a really positive view of Seattle sports fans, just in hanging around with them and stuff.  The "12" is hokey, and their rationalization of things like the Sherman antics, Baldwin's crapping a ball, and starting a fight while acting all hurt about the Patriots' supposed "class" is silly.  But I chalk that up to just being disappointed.  
 
Clearly, their popularity has risen dramatically, with Paul Allen's involvement and moving from the awful Kingdome to Century Link, but I kind of like their fans.  All of the post-merger expansion teams have not had the greatest success in establishing solid roots and building a dedicated fan base (unless you count the Ravens), but the Seahawks have done the best.  Three Super Bowls under their belt and the kind of heartache they just had is the sort of thing that really matures a team and its fans.  Once I get over some of the "12" bullshit in the aftermath of this game, I think there aren't too many not-Patriots AFC teams I could see myself rooting for over the Seahawks in a Super Bowl.
 

moly99

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Once I get over some of the "12" bullshit in the aftermath of this game, I think there aren't too many not-Patriots AFC teams I could see myself rooting for over the Seahawks in a Super Bowl.
 
Sorry to necro this thread, but I am on a late night caffeine high and this touched on an argument I had with a Niners fan recently. A lot of the new NFL stadiums have absolutely terrible atmosphere. I think Levi's Stadium is the absolute worst (for a full stadium, anyway), but even Gillette isn't great.
 
The Seahawks "12th Man" thing is annoying as hell . . . but it absolutely gets the message across to casual fans that they are there to make noise. The design of the stadium and the bars in Pioneer Square are a big help, but they drive the "12" thing into you from the moment you walk in the stadium. Even the stereotypical wine and cheese crowd (obviously, there are a ton of hipsters and white collar workers in Seattle) joins in the screaming.
 
I really think it would be great if the Pats could find some way to emulate this without being quite so obnoxious about it. Are there any gimmicks the Chiefs use at Arrowhead to get the crowd so loud?