The Shed: potential trade destinations for high-priced Sox players.

Savin Hillbilly

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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
I'm speculating on, the team's payroll going forward, the financial condition of a multi-billion dollar sports organization, and the relative impact of a Sox cost-reduction plan on the FSG as a whole. I do not know the #s, and as best as I can tell no one else here does either
So I don't understand why people who don't know the #s, and can only speculate, keep posting about the relative costs of keeping him vs. the collateral damage of losing him. If you don't know one quantity, how can you talk about how it compares to another?

Not to mention the fact that I think you're vastly overestimating the damage to the franchise if he walks or even if they trade him. People won't love it, but most fans will keep following the team and quickly find other people to root for.

2; No shit thanks for a blinding glimpse of the obvious. But they can pursue him aggressively and make him a good faith reasonable best offer as opposed to a low-ball Lester approach. And if he passes on a reasonable offer so be it. We will survive.
Fine, we agree on all of the above. (Well, maybe not the first part ;-)). But when people keep talking about the Sox "losing" Betts or "not letting him go" it perpetuates this frame where the Sox are in the driver's seat about his ultimate destination, and they just aren't. (The only real leverage they have in the situation is the power to trade him.)

3-He's 27, in great shape, with no reason to believe he can't be a very good player into his mid-30s. But I'll defer to you on the matter of a 27 YO guy's ability to play in the future.
Who said anything about his "ability to play in the future"? Of course there's no reason to think he won't be able to play very well in the future. You said he was entering his prime. I was responding specifically to that.
 

bankshot1

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Feb 12, 2003
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"So I don't understand why people who don't know the #s, and can only speculate, keep posting about the relative costs of keeping him vs. the collateral damage of losing him. If you don't know one quantity, how can you talk about how it compares to another?"

Well its good to know that you seem to indicate you don't know the #s either.
Yet it doesn't stop you from insisting others are wrong.

Fascinating stuff.

I know the approximate #s and the approximate impact, but am left to speculate the impact on the Sox and FSG

Not to mention the fact that I think you're vastly overestimating the damage to the franchise if he walks or even if they trade him. People won't love it, but most fans will keep following the team and quickly find other people to root for."

Could you be more specific?

Or are you the only poster who can speculate about the future?
 
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Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
"So I don't understand why people who don't know the #s, and can only speculate, keep posting about the relative costs of keeping him vs. the collateral damage of losing him. If you don't know one quantity, how can you talk about how it compares to another?"

Well its good to know that you seem to indicate you don't know the #s either.
Yet it doesn't stop you from insisting others are wrong.
I'm not claiming to have knowledge of ownership's finances that you don't. I'm saying I don't know what their financial situation is, or where they are in terms of long-term strategic planning for the economic health of the franchise, and so I don't have the information to gauge whether trying to get under $208M this year has a specific and non-trivial strategic purpose or is just Henry putting his foot down arbitrarily. Lacking that information, I tend to assume that they mean what they are saying. If you do have enough information to make that call, I'd like to hear what it is, but so far all I'm hearing is variations on the argument from personal incredulity fallacy.
 

67YAZ

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Yup, it's fWAR. I get that it's a fantasy, in that Betts would not get a 1/$61m offer were he on the market.

But the pool of just Free Agent players tend to get about $8m per projected WAR, and that's where those numbers come from. Remember that these are averages, and the average excludes pre-FA players and their salaries. So sometimes David Ortiz gets paid $16m to produce what Fangraphs thinks is $36m worth of WAR — amazing value! Sometimes Mitch Moreland gets paid $6.5m and produces $5.5m worth of WAR, and we got roughly what we paid for. Sometimes Pablo Sandoval gets $95m and produces -$8m worth of production — a total nightmare. It all goes into the average. These numbers used to rise steadily a few percent a year, but these days they seem to have plateaued.

Because they are averages, these $/WAR numbers do get a bit wonky at the extremes. Trout, for example, is an amazing value at a $36 AAV. If you, like me, think that Trout is likely to exceed 4.5 fWAR next season, he should produce a fair amount of surplus value for the Angels even at that steep salary. He is the best player, the best-paid player, and yet a surprisingly decent $/WAR value among players with 6+ years of service time. In my view, this is itself an argument for extending Betts even at huge dollars. Even if we pay him something outlandish like 8/$300 or 10/$350m, if he averages 5 fWAR over the life of the contract (a high bar, but not crazy for a player who has averaged 7.5 fWAR/162 games for his career), it would be a good FA value. That's why he's valuable. His market value — the money he can command through arb and eventually FA — is unlikely to match the value of his projected production (health allowing), simply because contracts don't go high enough. So yes, I know that Betts won't get paid $60m a year, and in that sense he isn't "worth" that amount. But that recognition itself helps make clear why he's a desirable player: he'll get paid ~$28m to produce an amount of WAR that would normally cost $61m in free agency.

And you're of course right that these values don't help explain what actual rosters look like, but only because real rosters aren't entirely made of free agents! An all FA team, with no pre-arb or arb players to get extra value, and average FA return would get ~25 WAR for $200m, and go 67-95. What that tells us is that you need to get surplus value out of your artificially cheap pre-arb and arb players to put a good team together. Even more than you want Mookie Betts to give you a 6.6 fWAR season for $20m, as he just did, you want a Rafael Devers to give you a 5.9 fWAR season for $500k.

What these $/fWAR surplus value calculations are really good for is comparing trades. The Fangraphs guys have now put $ values on tiers of prospects by projected future value, which makes it possible to estimate how good a prospect you can expect to get back for a given veteran.



FWIW, I started this thread and I agree with every word of this post. I don't think any of these trades are as smart as giving something like the 2018-19 roster another spin in the hope that Sale, Price and Eovaldi can each make 25+ healthy starts. Hell, we've even developed a bullpen since April 2019.

If you read my initial post — which I don't mean to suggest you didn't — I don't actually endorse any of these trades. I actually think all of them would be bad ideas.

I can squint and imagine it making sense to deal JD Martinez to Chicago, if they will actually send us Reynaldo Lopez in return to be our fifth starter. Then we could either find a cheaper positionless slugger — Eric Thames? — or else promote Bobby Dalbec. If we then spent some or all of the saved money upgrading the right side of the infield, we might even be a better team after such a trade. That I think it would actually make sense to deal Martinez to Chicago for Lopez suggests to me that Chicago would not accept such a deal.

(The Trade Simulator also suggests that Martinez-Lopez is extremely tilted towards the Red Sox, but that maybe we could get CWS' #4 prospect Dane Dunning, a 23 y/o RHSP coming off TJS after a very nice 2018 between high-A and AA, and buy low on their #8 prospect, The Good Basabe, after a so-so season in AA. If we actually needed to shed payroll, I might do that deal. It hurts us in 2020, but adds a decent CF prospect and a good SP prospect to the high minors.)
Abreu signs his $17.8m qualifying offer. While this might not slam shut and lock the door for a JDM trade, it makes it that much less likely. The White Sox can explore 1B and 1B/DH platoon options with a focus on getting a left handed bat. They really need an everyday lefty in the lineup.
 

johnnywayback

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I'd say if anything it makes them a potential dark horse for Betts. I assume they don't want to lock themselves into playing Abreu in the field every day, so Martinez seems like a weird fit, but they could use another outfielder. I'm guessing they wouldn't move any of Robert, Jiminez, Kopech, etc. for a one-year Betts rental, but Nick Madrigal would look pretty good leading off and playing second for us for the next decade or so.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Jul 10, 2007
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The wrong side of the bridge....
I'd say if anything it makes them a potential dark horse for Betts. I assume they don't want to lock themselves into playing Abreu in the field every day, so Martinez seems like a weird fit, but they could use another outfielder. I'm guessing they wouldn't move any of Robert, Jiminez, Kopech, etc. for a one-year Betts rental, but Nick Madrigal would look pretty good leading off and playing second for us for the next decade or so.
The problem with this is, unless I'm missing something, it would leave the White Sox with a giant 2B hole going forward. They're deep in young talent on the mound and in the outfield, but in the middle infield, not so much. So I would think they'd be more interested in talking Kopech than Madrigal, actually. (Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.)
 

jon abbey

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I don’t understand the appeal of madrigal. Other that not striking out he doesn’t seem to have an above average skill.
I don't actually think there is a match with the White Sox, but Madrigal has a 65 grade hitting, a 60 running, and a 60 fielding on his mlb.com profile (#40 prospect in MLB).

"Scouting grades: Hit: 65 | Power: 40 | Run: 60 | Arm: 50 | Field: 60 | Overall: 55

The Pacific-12 Conference player of the year as a sophomore in 2017, Madrigal saw his chances of repeating end when he broke his left wrist early in his junior season. He still lived up to his reputation as the best player and hitter in college baseball and became the second-highest-drafted second baseman ever when the White Sox picked him at No. 4 overall (two spots lower than the Brewers took Rickie Weeks in 2003). After helping Oregon State win the College World Series, he signed for $6,411,400 and batted .303 in his pro debut while advancing to Class A Advanced.

Madrigal's introduction to pro ball reinforced why scouts considered him the best pure hitter in the 2018 Draft. Unfazed by advanced competition, he used his controlled right-handed swing to spray line drives all over the field while striking out just five times in 173 plate appearances. He's small and doesn't have a lot of raw strength, but his ability to barrel the ball and his plus speed should produce a healthy amount of doubles and maybe 12-15 homers per season.

Recruited by Oregon State as a shortstop, Madrigal wound up playing second base for the Beavers in deference to Cadyn Grenier, an Orioles supplemental first-rounder who was rated as the best college defender in the 2018 Draft. Madrigal has the hands and actions to play shortstop, though his average arm makes him a better fit at second base. Chicago planned on trying him at short but he has spent almost all of his pro career at second, where he could develop into a Gold Glover."
 

chawson

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I don’t know, Betts to the White Sox does actually make some sense. They’re ready to go, have prospects and young players at positions we need, and still have money to spend after whiffing on Machado.

I also think making Mookie Betts the face of the franchise in the South Side of Chicago could have some significance to them. Mookie could and should be the face of any franchise, and it ought to be in New England — but it might also be compelling to the White Sox and MLB both for a superstar black athlete to demonstrate stardom in a 93 percent African American area of a city.

If trading Madrigal gives them fits about second, Chavis could also go the other way.

White Sox get
Betts
Chavis (FA ‘26)

Red Sox get
RHP Lopez (FA ‘24)
UTIL Garcia (FA ‘21, $4m proj. salary)
2B Madrigal (#25 overall)
CF Steele Walker
RHP Andrew Dahlquist

I hate that, but only because it’s a trade scenario that has Betts leaving Boston. It seems like an overpay for both teams, which means it’s probably fine.
 
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EvilEmpire

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I don't think the CWS are competing for a championship next year. I also don't think they can count on Mookie signing an extension. Maybe he won't want to stay in Chicago after being traded for. If they're interested, they're better off taking their shot after Mookie becomes a FA.
 

chawson

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I don't think the CWS are competing for a championship next year. I also don't think they can count on Mookie signing an extension. Maybe he won't want to stay in Chicago after being traded for. If they're interested, they're better off taking their shot after Mookie becomes a FA.
I’m inclined to agree, but dyou think they’re that far off? Anderson, Grandal, Moncada, Eloy and Giolito could all be 5-win players next year. They’ll get above-average years from Abreu and Cease, and may get full ones from Robert, Kopech and Dunning.

I agree they should not count on extending Mookie, but a tight pennant race leading a young core is a pretty good pitch. And they have a good shot in 2020. Cleveland is as vulnerable and may have to trade Lindor. The Twins will be good again but aren’t exactly a dynasty, and I could see a case that Chicago’s core is already better.
 

jon abbey

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Yeah, but not at the cost of giving up long-term pieces. They will spend in FA as they have been, see how their young kids develop, and can take a crack at Mookie for just (a ton of) money next winter as EE said. CLE and MIN will be just as vulnerable in 2021 if not more.
 

EvilEmpire

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I don't know how far off they are, but I think at least a year, depending on how much their young pitching develops. Giving up talent would compromise that goal. They should have a much better sense of where they are after 2020. Can Giolito sustain success? Can Lopez improve on what he did in 2018 or will he backslide even more like he did in 2019? How much progress will there be from the other guys in the rotation? Lots of ways their pitching can go.

It totally makes sense for them to go after Mookie or other elite talent in 2021 if those other pieces are solid. They need to find out. Who knows, maybe the big money they can spend needs to go to pitching. A quality catcher like Grandal should help them figure it out.

edit: I type slow. JA said it more succinctly.
 

mauf

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I don’t see the team that’s going to give us a blue-chip prospect for a 1/30 Mookie rental.

Bloom needs to decide (1) whether 2020 or 2021 is the right year to reset the CBT, and (2) whether Mookie is part of the long-term future. If his answers are 2020 and no, then Mookie should go, almost irrespective of the return. If his answers are something else, then Mookie will probably stay, even if the plan is to let him walk after next season.
 

nvalvo

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I don’t see the team that’s going to give us a blue-chip prospect for a 1/30 Mookie rental.

Bloom needs to decide (1) whether 2020 or 2021 is the right year to reset the CBT, and (2) whether Mookie is part of the long-term future. If his answers are 2020 and no, then Mookie should go, almost irrespective of the return. If his answers are something else, then Mookie will probably stay, even if the plan is to let him walk after next season.
Good post. This is a smart way to look at it IMO.

Betts’ return will depend on how many teams are seriously interested. There are a number of teams for whom adding a 6-8 win player could take them into contention, or else separate them from the pack. And some of those teams need OF help, and have deep farm systems. If two or more teams decide that Betts is Plan A, we could get a pretty good return — maybe not a blue chip, but a valuable prospect package comparable to what Goldschmidt returned. (Yes, Goldschmidt was cheaper and amenable to an extension; Mookie is a much better player.)

I’d also point out that we’re one of those teams for whom a 6-8 win OF is the difference between contention and no.
 

Plympton91

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First, I admit I really don't understand what "worth" means... in relation to what? fWAR?
This entire "worth" system... has to be recalculated. There has to be some better way to make this ridiculous number fit into an average team's average roster salary per year. He might be "worth" that number in a vaccuum, but obviously there's not one team in baseball that can pay that and also put a competitive roster of actual ML players. Whenever I see numbers of a players "worth" or "value" per season put into dollar amounts it never makes sense in the context of him on a roster of other players.
You’ve hit on 2 of the problems. First, these “worth” metrics assume linearity and additivity, and neither of those assumptions is right. Second, they are unconstrained optimal values, not accounting for the fact that a roster can only ha e 26 players, only 9 can be in the lineup simultaneously, and there are kink points in the payroll structure where taxes kick in and make the salary of one player interact with the salaries of others.
 

johnnywayback

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Well, I was going to say that the White Sox could trade Madrigal because they seem to like Yolmer Sanchez, but they just outrighted him today, so who knows.

EDITED TO ADD: Similarly, I'd thought that Luis Urias would be an interesting target in a Betts-to-San-Diego trade, but he just got traded to Milwaukee.
 
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