The Rosen Thread
- Thread starter Time to Mo Vaughn
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Rosen could be good; a team has to try to get a good QB every chance it gets.
The problem with Tannehill is that they kept him for so long, not that they drafted him. If the Dolphins had tanked rather than draft Tannehill and had a top 3 pick in 2013, 2014, 2015 they could have had the following QBs with their top pick:
-Ej Manuel
-Blake Bortles
-Teddy Bridgewater
-Johnny Football
-Jameis Winston
-Marcus Mariotta
None of these are bad picks but there are no franchise QBs either.
The problem with Tannehill is that they kept him for so long, not that they drafted him. If the Dolphins had tanked rather than draft Tannehill and had a top 3 pick in 2013, 2014, 2015 they could have had the following QBs with their top pick:
-Ej Manuel
-Blake Bortles
-Teddy Bridgewater
-Johnny Football
-Jameis Winston
-Marcus Mariotta
None of these are bad picks but there are no franchise QBs either.
Not sure how I feel being on an island with Armando lol
He’s actually one of the few guys where i’m usually 50/50 agreeing or being totally appalled by his takes...but maybe that means he’s doing something right.
Before reading that I had calmed quite a bit and come closer to the positive side of things.
My later post is where I’m currently at - i just want him to be spectacular - whether it’s good or bad. If that’s the case than it was “no lose”, as I’m not going to lose sleep over how they handled the 2nd round pick situation.
He’s actually one of the few guys where i’m usually 50/50 agreeing or being totally appalled by his takes...but maybe that means he’s doing something right.
Before reading that I had calmed quite a bit and come closer to the positive side of things.
My later post is where I’m currently at - i just want him to be spectacular - whether it’s good or bad. If that’s the case than it was “no lose”, as I’m not going to lose sleep over how they handled the 2nd round pick situation.
If NE made this move, it’s viewed as a masterstroke by BB. Getting Brady’s heir apparent for pennies on the dollar.
Miami does it and people are concerned that it might impact their ability to be terrible.
Using a second rounder on a QB is an investment, this talk about there being a no downside or no lose move for Miami is puzzling.
If he busts then you’ve absorbed the opportunity cost of getting an actual contributor with that pick.
The trade makes sense for MIA, or really any other team with an expected QB need in the short to medium term that tried this, don’t get me wrong.
If he busts then you’ve absorbed the opportunity cost of getting an actual contributor with that pick.
The trade makes sense for MIA, or really any other team with an expected QB need in the short to medium term that tried this, don’t get me wrong.
These two thoughts are related. The Pats can afford such a gamble because, while they do have needs, their needs aren't close to the level of the Dolphins. If Rosen busts then the Dolphins have potentially given up a useful player. And as has been talked about by our Fish Fan Friends, the worst case is if Rosen is mediocre like Tannehill and they manage to win 6 or 7 games and only end up in the 7-12 range of the draft.
Excellent. And shit - now a little part of me is rooting for the guy. (But maybe to the tune of just enough wins to take Miami out of the Tua sweepstakes.)
I'm with you on this one. The criticism seems reflexive/emotional rather than thoughtful.
I have no idea if Rosen is a great talent or not. But anyone considering him "damaged goods" after one season in Arizona would be the same folks who wrote off Jarred Goff after his rookie season in LA. It should also be noted that a lot of the folks in NFL front offices (and the media figures who uncritically report their whisperings) who didn't like Rosen's "makeup" or "couldn't get comfortable with him" last year are the kind of folks who disdain athletes who actually have a brain and aren't afraid to offer actual opinions rather than just spout pablum.
If he's got the talent, he simply needs to find an organization and coaching system that fits him. (Or, learn to adjust to the system he has.) If he doesn't have the talent, no amount of coaching/adjustment will help. It's obvious that a lot of folks recognize that he has the talent. If the Dolphins think they can bring it out of him, it's an impressively low-risk move to get that kind of upside.
The criticism IS reflexive/emotional. Nobody does good except the Patriots, esp division foes
The guy was highly regarded just a year ago year and thrown into a horrible situation. They are on the hook financially for a couple of million a year. Peanuts. Second round and lower picks routinely don’t work out.
This tanking business is rare and not particularly effective. Yeah, Polian did it for Luck. How many playoff victories, much less Championships? Routinely, we confer banners on them for “accomplishments.”
Added to this, they have a brand new regime in Miami to change the culture and fortunes of a franchise. So the first thing you’re going to do is ... not even try? While you’re asking people to buy in and risk their necks in the process??
The guy was highly regarded just a year ago year and thrown into a horrible situation. They are on the hook financially for a couple of million a year. Peanuts. Second round and lower picks routinely don’t work out.
This tanking business is rare and not particularly effective. Yeah, Polian did it for Luck. How many playoff victories, much less Championships? Routinely, we confer banners on them for “accomplishments.”
Added to this, they have a brand new regime in Miami to change the culture and fortunes of a franchise. So the first thing you’re going to do is ... not even try? While you’re asking people to buy in and risk their necks in the process??
Just for the record, I think this was an excellent move by the Dolphins. I’d much rather have Rosen than the Bills guy and I still think there’s a good chance Rosen ends up better than Jets guy.
^
I liked Rosen more than Darnold or Allen too, but I like Tua, Fromm and Herbert more than that entire group.
That’s why the “tank for Tua” was always a misnomer and the idea for waiting until next year for a QB always made complete sense, it isn’t Tua or bust. There’s likely to be 3 or 4 legitimate Top 10 prospects, all thought more highly than the recent groups of 1st round picks.
And “tanking” may not be a thing, also a misnomer, but everything the Dolphins have done, outside Rosen continues to say this year is a throw away in terms of record and was all about resetting the roster and allowing young players to develop.
They traded out of rounds this year,got rid of solid veteran players - they now have a trove of picks next season, tons of salary cap, and it’s pretty clear 2020 is when the rebuild really kicks into gear...and I love that. It makes sense, it greatly mirrors the Browns model that seems to have got them out of NFL purgatory.
This year was a much needed year down. 2020 is when the true building begins...Rosen’s third year of his rookie deal. I’m a year better options will be available. So again, it’s always going to lead me back to...why bother?
(I’ll try to make that my final point on the subject, as I’m sure I’m repeating stuff at this point, but after having a couple days to think, this post kind of summarizes everything...so his is my final answer lol)
I liked Rosen more than Darnold or Allen too, but I like Tua, Fromm and Herbert more than that entire group.
That’s why the “tank for Tua” was always a misnomer and the idea for waiting until next year for a QB always made complete sense, it isn’t Tua or bust. There’s likely to be 3 or 4 legitimate Top 10 prospects, all thought more highly than the recent groups of 1st round picks.
And “tanking” may not be a thing, also a misnomer, but everything the Dolphins have done, outside Rosen continues to say this year is a throw away in terms of record and was all about resetting the roster and allowing young players to develop.
They traded out of rounds this year,got rid of solid veteran players - they now have a trove of picks next season, tons of salary cap, and it’s pretty clear 2020 is when the rebuild really kicks into gear...and I love that. It makes sense, it greatly mirrors the Browns model that seems to have got them out of NFL purgatory.
This year was a much needed year down. 2020 is when the true building begins...Rosen’s third year of his rookie deal. I’m a year better options will be available. So again, it’s always going to lead me back to...why bother?
(I’ll try to make that my final point on the subject, as I’m sure I’m repeating stuff at this point, but after having a couple days to think, this post kind of summarizes everything...so his is my final answer lol)
Would be kind of amazing from an outside observer’s standpoint if it turns out that Rosen and/or the team underperform to the point of being in position to draft one of those guys and Rosen is again put on the block in favor of a rookie.
What boggles my mind is people complained about never challenging Tannehill. Bringing him in and handing him the job and never drafting anyone to truly push him.
Miami finally makes a move to address the position, and not only did they not take themselves out of position for 2020, they strengthened it by trading down and getting an extra second.
If they only get two legit years of Rosen before they have to sign him to a second contract, who cares? It means they fleeced Arizona and found a franchise QB. They have the draft capital and money next year to significantly overhaul the roster. If he stinks, he’s at the very worst a backup QB on a cheap contract that they move on from.
Again, I can’t fathom how some Miami fans are managing to talk themselves into this being a bad move.
Miami finally makes a move to address the position, and not only did they not take themselves out of position for 2020, they strengthened it by trading down and getting an extra second.
If they only get two legit years of Rosen before they have to sign him to a second contract, who cares? It means they fleeced Arizona and found a franchise QB. They have the draft capital and money next year to significantly overhaul the roster. If he stinks, he’s at the very worst a backup QB on a cheap contract that they move on from.
Again, I can’t fathom how some Miami fans are managing to talk themselves into this being a bad move.
Rosen is never gonna be anything because he just doesn't love Football. He also has a lot of on the field issues (evidenced by his play last year) that were ignored when people focused on his off field issues. My guess is, he'll never get better because he'll never put in the work to be a good QB.
I think it's a very good move for them---I have no idea if Rosen will work out or not, but getting a couple year look at a guy everyone agreed a year ago was a top-tier talent for the cost of a second round pick is a good bet to place.
I've seen 2 negative takes on this:
1. That he might make them too good to get a high enough pick to draft a top QB next year.
2. That he'll be decent and they won't draft a QB and he'll just be a bottom half QB.
I think they're both misguided.
If 1 happens..... congrats you just stole an elite QB, because this roster is garbage on purpose and only a truly top end QB is getting them out of the 5 worst records in the league.
And 2 is predicated on making a dumb decision, you can't not make great deals because you don't trust yourself not to make good decisions going forward.
1. That he might make them too good to get a high enough pick to draft a top QB next year.
2. That he'll be decent and they won't draft a QB and he'll just be a bottom half QB.
I think they're both misguided.
If 1 happens..... congrats you just stole an elite QB, because this roster is garbage on purpose and only a truly top end QB is getting them out of the 5 worst records in the league.
And 2 is predicated on making a dumb decision, you can't not make great deals because you don't trust yourself not to make good decisions going forward.
Well said. Another way of looking at this is the Dolphins traded in 2019 a second round pick and a fifth rounder in 2020 for the tenth pick in the 2018 draft. So at a cap cost of $2 million a year, they doubled their chances of hitting on a franchise QB — which matters because the failure rate of QBs taken high probably is no better than 50%. And as you noted, if Rosen performs well enough to cost them 8 to 10 places in the first round next year, the search is likely over and you can redirect the #1 to other purposes.
I’m straining to remember a more professional and classy departure.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/28/josh-rosen-gets-standing-ovation-at-larry-fitzgeralds-softball-game/
From being all-in on OTAs despite handwriting on the wall, to his video released yesterday, to the above.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/28/josh-rosen-gets-standing-ovation-at-larry-fitzgeralds-softball-game/
From being all-in on OTAs despite handwriting on the wall, to his video released yesterday, to the above.
Maybe he’s not the guy people assumed he was while he was going through the draft process last year. Everything I’ve seen and read suggests he handled this with maturity, class, and professionalism, and I’ve seen many teammates and some coaches echo the exact same thing.
Except for Steve Smith, who apparently thinks unfollowing the team on Twitter and Instagram makes you soft and a baby.
More than that, the Dolphins traded a 2019 second round pick and a fifth rounder in 2020 for the tenth pick in the 2018 draft with Arizona agreeing to pay the signing bonus for the 10th pick
Steve Smith proved that the old saying about assumptions is only half-true, because Rosen looks dignified and professional while Smith came out of this looking like a world-class asshole.
This SI piece, with quotes from Rosen, is gold:
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/29/josh-rosen-cardinals-dolphins-trade-quotes-mmqb
If you want to feel better about yourself, read that piece, because any one of us could apparently be GM of the Cardinals. I mean, it's the day before the draft and you're texting Rosen's agent and saying, "hey, feel free to help us look for a deal?" What the fuck else do you have to do if you're the Cardinals GM other than explore trades that will directly impact your upcoming FIRST OVERALL PICK IN THE DRAFT?
I mean, "hey, do you think the Pats are interested"?!?! From the GM of the team? Does he not have Bill's number? That's insane.
Rosen comes off like a good dude to me. He's clearly a smart guy - and maybe football wasn't his life coming into the NFL, but it sounds like year one wised him up to what it takes to succeed. Miami could have done really well here.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/29/josh-rosen-cardinals-dolphins-trade-quotes-mmqb
If you want to feel better about yourself, read that piece, because any one of us could apparently be GM of the Cardinals. I mean, it's the day before the draft and you're texting Rosen's agent and saying, "hey, feel free to help us look for a deal?" What the fuck else do you have to do if you're the Cardinals GM other than explore trades that will directly impact your upcoming FIRST OVERALL PICK IN THE DRAFT?
I mean, "hey, do you think the Pats are interested"?!?! From the GM of the team? Does he not have Bill's number? That's insane.
Rosen comes off like a good dude to me. He's clearly a smart guy - and maybe football wasn't his life coming into the NFL, but it sounds like year one wised him up to what it takes to succeed. Miami could have done really well here.
I got the exact impression you did. Keim comes off like an absolute buffoon. Completely botched the handling of the entire situation.
Also the same guy that signed an extension last season through 2022 and promptly went out and got a DUI and a 5 game suspension from the league.