The Poll: Is Wyc burning Brad- Should CBS be torched at season's end?

Should Brad be fired as Celtics HC?

  • Yes, no ifs and or buts

  • Yes, but only if they miss the post-season

  • Yes , and I'd fire Danny too

  • No

  • Other Yes-specify

  • Other No-specify

  • Other


Results are only viewable after voting.

128

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I hope the Celtics find a market for Kemba. I hope his resurgence is enough to convince some team desperate for offense to take him on. Because I honestly do not expect it to continue. Wrong side of 30, knee injury, small guard. The cliff is right there, and all it will take is a little push.
I hope so, too. Just not sure another team would be willing to deal for Kemba without knowing if his knee can hold up through both nights of a back-to-back.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I hope so, too. Just not sure another team would be willing to deal for Kemba without knowing if his knee can hold up through both nights of a back-to-back.
I hope we can find an upgrade for Kemba but I don’t see that happening so I’m not necessarily a proponent of moving him to downgrade. Decades ago you could always find a team with a young stud PG on the bench behind an established star so that team was always going to be looking to move one of them (Nash behind Kidd, Strickland behind Mark Jackson, etc etc) but today these teams are more likely to play these young guys together (Lowry/VanVleet, Sexton/Garland, etc) so it is next to impossible to steal one of these young PG’s to start for the next decade simply because that team doesn’t have to trade one of them as they did back then. You are pretty much limited to getting lucky in the draft or having cap space for a PG who is a FA.....but why would a team let the latter go via FA? So you’re stuck overpaying a flawed veteran like Kemba. Ainge is in a tough spot on this one.
 

sezwho

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I hope we can find an upgrade for Kemba but I don’t see that happening so I’m not necessarily a proponent of moving him to downgrade. Decades ago you could always find a team with a young stud PG on the bench behind an established star so that team was always going to be looking to move one of them (Nash behind Kidd, Strickland behind Mark Jackson, etc etc) but today these teams are more likely to play these young guys together (Lowry/VanVleet, Sexton/Garland, etc) so it is next to impossible to steal one of these young PG’s to start for the next decade simply because that team doesn’t have to trade one of them as they did back then. You are pretty much limited to getting lucky in the draft or having cap space for a PG who is a FA.....but why would a team let the latter go via FA? So you’re stuck overpaying a flawed veteran like Kemba. Ainge is in a tough spot on this one.
interesting, I’m coming to the opinion that you go all In on dumpingKemba.

We cannot have Kemba pounding the rock and crapping his pants on defence any longer...even though he tries. Some crappy team will love his empty calorie scoring if we package enough pics, you just have to get me a real honest to God PG. Lowry, or CP3 or even a Ball.

Would love to know what the coaches think but to my eyes the entire team (and Js in particular) works so much harder on offence because he just hurtles around and isn’t able to put guys in good positions and on defense because he’s tiny and broken.
 

Cellar-Door

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interesting, I’m coming to the opinion that you go all In on dumpingKemba.

We cannot have Kemba pounding the rock and crapping his pants on defence any longer...even though he tries. Some crappy team will love his empty calorie scoring if we package enough pics, you just have to get me a real honest to God PG. Lowry, or CP3 or even a Ball.

Would love to know what the coaches think but to my eyes the entire team (and Js in particular) works so much harder on offence because he just hurtles around and isn’t able to put guys in good positions and on defense because he’s tiny and broken.
I think we should keep Kemba in part because I generally disagree with your assessment of him.

His defense is honestly fine so long as he's not sharing a backcourt with Smart. He'll never be good on D, but he's not a particularly big negative when not paired with Smart, and he's a significant offensive weapon for us, basically every heavily used grouping with him is much better on offense than the ones without.

He definitely is the best playmaker for others on the roster... I don't know at all what you are seeing to think that the offense works better without him, because to me both the data and the eye test agree that he makes the offense far more efficient.

Kemba is not a defense breaker... he's a better defender than a number of other PGs around the league (Dame is an obvious one).
 

HomeRunBaker

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interesting, I’m coming to the opinion that you go all In on dumpingKemba.

We cannot have Kemba pounding the rock and crapping his pants on defence any longer...even though he tries. Some crappy team will love his empty calorie scoring if we package enough pics, you just have to get me a real honest to God PG. Lowry, or CP3 or even a Ball.

Would love to know what the coaches think but to my eyes the entire team (and Js in particular) works so much harder on offence because he just hurtles around and isn’t able to put guys in good positions and on defense because he’s tiny and broken.
I haven’t looked recently but as of 3-4 weeks ago our offense performed better when Kemba was on the floor with the defense a wash which left him as a net positive. Now I don’t place a ton of weight on these numbers but they certainly don’t show that he’s been the killer that many on here feel that he is. It also passes my particular eye test in that our offense runs smoother with the ball getting to advantageous spots with Kemba probing and initiating the offense opposed to when PP, Smart, Edwards, or Teague (when he was here) as they do not possess the ability to break down a defense off the dribble or by requiring help on the dribble.

Defensively it’s pretty much a layup line when Kemba shares the backcourt with Fournier but overall not nearly as bad as he’s made out to be.....still below avg and more exposed in the postseason and moving forward though.
 

SteveF

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The Js problem on offense is probably mostly spacing. I'd pin that on Smart and Thompson (and well, the bench obviously). Smart can't shoot and so doesn't need to be defended and Thompson has limited value beyond screening. He's not even an effective roll man like Theis could be (even apart from the Gortat screens). He just seems to clog up the lane. I mean, Theis could catch a pass after all.

My only issue with Kemba is that I'm increasingly certain the best player on the next Celtics' championship team isn't on the roster yet, so they'll need Kemba's salary space to add that player. Plus, I'm out on basketball players under 6'3" not named Chris Paul. (I'm sure someone will be able to name a player I like under 6'3", so don't take that last bit too seriously.)
 

sezwho

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I'm willing to grant that Kemba may make the offense run better than the rest of the roster, I just think that's damning with faint praise. I'd likely also yield to any on/off stats demonstrating it, SSS notwithstanding. My point is that an actual pass first PG would be vastly superior and 'force multiply' the Js and probably Fournier. My eyes also sees that, when it works, yes his hurtling around can create opportunities...but that's hard to build an offense around and the half step he's likely lost has him equally lost in the trees at the basket.

The fact his D seems worse with Smart and Fournier makes me more concerned. In his heart the next great Celtics team run by Brad will always want to be led by Defense and as long as Kemba is on the court it won't be. He raises the bar for everyone else just to be average...and I don't see the big plus on the offense, especially as Brad wants to play with ball movement.

Sure, if he's 100% and playing every game you can build an offense around his dribble drive game and create a defense to minimize his many weaknesses. Perhaps I see Kemba with the opposite of rose colored classes, but think that caps you as a team and I don't want to invest in it. At the $$$ its just painful.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm willing to grant that Kemba may make the offense run better than the rest of the roster, I just think that's damning with faint praise. I'd likely also yield to any on/off stats demonstrating it, SSS notwithstanding. My point is that an actual pass first PG would be vastly superior and 'force multiply' the Js and probably Fournier. My eyes also sees that, when it works, yes his hurtling around can create opportunities...but that's hard to build an offense around and the half step he's likely lost has him equally lost in the trees at the basket.

The fact his D seems worse with Smart and Fournier makes me more concerned. In his heart the next great Celtics team run by Brad will always want to be led by Defense and as long as Kemba is on the court it won't be. He raises the bar for everyone else just to be average...and I don't see the big plus on the offense, especially as Brad wants to play with ball movement.

Sure, if he's 100% and playing every game you can build an offense around his dribble drive game and create a defense to minimize his many weaknesses. Perhaps I see Kemba with the opposite of rose colored classes, but think that caps you as a team and I don't want to invest in it. At the $$$ its just painful.
If I made it sound like I’m pro-Kemba my apologies. I was never a fan of the signing from the get go but I could understand the theory behind it......which I outlined above in that it is damn near impossible to acquire a better PG than Kemba over the next 2-3 years and creating that large salary slot had value.

It wasn’t ever a perfect solution, and still isn’t one......but until someone can make a case for a better solution than Kemba being our PG next year I’m in the camp that he’s probably going to remain here until we go full blown tank mode which I don’t see happening.
 

mcpickl

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If I made it sound like I’m pro-Kemba my apologies. I was never a fan of the signing from the get go but I could understand the theory behind it......which I outlined above in that it is damn near impossible to acquire a better PG than Kemba over the next 2-3 years and creating that large salary slot had value.

It wasn’t ever a perfect solution, and still isn’t one......but until someone can make a case for a better solution than Kemba being our PG next year I’m in the camp that he’s probably going to remain here until we go full blown tank mode which I don’t see happening.
This is where I'm at on Kemba, and Smart to a lesser degree.

I don't think any team out there is clamoring to acquire Kemba. At best I think you'd get a lesser player with a better contract, which is unlikely to help the Celtics.

I love Smart, and even I don't see him bringing back some kind of haul that would really help the team. He's probably just valued mostly by contenders, so you're unlikely to get immediate help for him unless it's some kind of multi-team deal. Would he have a much bigger market than Evan Fournier did this year? I'd guess probably based on his defensive reputation, but I don't think it would be a much bigger return.

Unless the Celtics have some kind of chemistry issue among the players that we don't know about, I think the best course of action is having these core guys take a breather this summer, get healthier(I'm hoping some of Smarts issues are from the calf strain he missed time with)and try to add a veteran or two to the bench so they're not relying on so many young players.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You left out the last paragraph.

“During the strife, Stevens was seen in his office unwrapping his post-game bologna and cheese sandwich from the paper bag that his wife made for him.”
 

lexrageorge

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You left out the last paragraph.

“During the strife, Stevens was seen in his office unwrapping his post-game bologna and cheese sandwich from the paper bag that his wife made for him.”
Rumor has it that he's since transitioned to edibles as this season has gone on.
 

TripleOT

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Rumor alert: Danny Ainge conveniently sitting next to Sam Cassel at the Hall of Fame festivities. Sam is a well regarded NBA assistant who should be a head coach soon.
 

benhogan

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Rumor alert: Danny Ainge conveniently sitting next to Sam Cassel at the Hall of Fame festivities. Sam is a well regarded NBA assistant who should be a head coach soon.
File this under not happening, but I wonder what the Indiana Pacers would give up for Brad?
 

Carbo Loading

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Simmons had Jackie Mac on his podcast yesterday and they talked a lot about the Celtics. Simmons believes that these are the people who will be definitely with the team next year - ownership (Wyc/Pags), Brad, Tatum, and probably Brown. Jackie somewhat agreed but noted that Danny is very close friends with Pags so it would be a difficult situation if they decided to move on from Danny. They did not think Brad was on the hot seat at all, and you know Simmons has some contacts in that front office.
 

reggiecleveland

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. He's not even an effective roll man like Theis could be (even apart from the Gortat screens). He just seems to clog up the lane. I mean, Theis could catch a pass after all.
I really don't know which nba forwards guys are watching to be so down in TT. Theis was not very good this year. He has played much better the last month, close two months than Theis did this year. Neither get starter money. Kanter, according to SOSH, was shit . Somehow he is shooting. 60% averaging a double double for a better team than the Celtics. Whoever replaced TT in your scenario, unless he's an all star will quickly be SOSH's whipping boy.

Perhaps our lovely guys with the ball are not good at using bigs. We are all emotionally invested in Tatum and Brown, we blame others for bad plays involving them.

As a big I would hesitate to sign here. Tatum, Brown are bad at hitting the roller, they tend to take an extra beat or 6 to see which shot they have before looking at the roller. Flipping around I saw Theis slip a screen get a quick pass for a dunk and remembered he basically quit trying that here. It took perhaps the GOAT of lob catchers getting minutes until the roll game was used at all.
 

Fishy1

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I really don't know which nba forwards guys are watching to be so down in TT. Theis was not very good this year. He has played much better the last month, close two months than Theis did this year. Neither get starter money. Kanter, according to SOSH, was shit . Somehow he is shooting. 60% averaging a double double for a better team than the Celtics. Whoever replaced TT in your scenario, unless he's an all star will quickly be SOSH's whipping boy.

Perhaps our lovely guys with the ball are not good at using bigs. We are all emotionally invested in Tatum and Brown, we blame others for bad plays involving them.

As a big I would hesitate to sign here. Tatum, Brown are bad at hitting the roller, they tend to take an extra beat or 6 to see which shot they have before looking at the roller. Flipping around I saw Theis slip a screen get a quick pass for a dunk and remembered he basically quit trying that here. It took perhaps the GOAT of lob catchers getting minutes until the roll game was used at all.
I think you're conclusions about Brown and Tatum's current passing are fair, but everything else here ignores the facts. First of all, the Celtics have attracted plenty of free agents lately. Horford, Kemba, Hayward... I don't think there's a single NBA center with talent who wouldn't want to play with these guys.

You're also ignoring the fact that Tatum and Brown have improved and will likely continue to improve as passers. Both of them are young and have made huge strides. Tatum is way ahead of Brown, and flashes excellent passing. I think next year he averages over 5 assists and wouldn't be surprised to see him settle in around 6 or 7 as he gets into his prime.

As for Kanter and TT - neither of them are great in the pick and roll, and Kanter is better than TT. TT got mediocre hands, needs a perfect lob, and gets tunnel vision under the basket. Theis was a better roller, Horford is probably still better, TL is obviously the best of the bunch. Kornet, for all the shit he gets on this board, is better. Kanter was not lamented for his offense, anyway. He's a bad defender and he'll get hunted in the playoffs, just as he always has. And Portland will see another quick exit, if I had to guess - why? Their terrible defense, anchored by Kanter.

And TT is not playing forward, he's playing center, and he does only one or two things well as a center: switch and rebound. He rarely makes mistakes on defense, but almost everyone can score over him. He's not an NBA starting center anymore, not on a good team. He just doesn't provide the rim protection you need to anchor a great defense or the vertical spacing that would open up the offense. I like him fine, but I'd almost prefer to see Kornet out there. At least he can get a block.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think you're conclusions about Brown and Tatum's current passing are fair, but everything else here ignores the facts. First of all, the Celtics have attracted plenty of free agents lately. Horford, Kemba, Hayward... I don't think there's a single NBA center with talent who wouldn't want to play with these guys.
Two of those three bit their tongue when they were here then couldn’t opt-out to get out of dodge fast enough. The third, well it only took $140m to convince Kemba to sign.
 

lexrageorge

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Two of those three bit their tongue when they were here then couldn’t opt-out to get out of dodge fast enough. The third, well it only took $140m to convince Kemba to sign.
In both cases for a lot more money than the Celtics were willing to offer. Both of them knew exactly what Danny would have offered in an extension. Money does matter.
 

Fishy1

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Two of those three bit their tongue when they were here then couldn’t opt-out to get out of dodge fast enough. The third, well it only took $140m to convince Kemba to sign.
I have to agree with lexrageorge. The bottom line is the bottom line. For the most part: veterans with plenty of money in the bank are the one group who regularly settle for less money for a ring-chasing situation. And even that doesn't always work out for them.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, there was zero chance that Boston was giving Horford $97 million guaranteed and up to $109 million overall. Hayward tried to go play for his hometown team, but it didn’t work out after that GM reneged on his deal.
 

TripleOT

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The “no one wants to play with Brown and Tatum” take is off base. They are two of the most popular players with their peers. I expect them to be a draw for good players in the coming years.
 

lexrageorge

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There is one issue in that any veteran teaming w/ Brown and Tatum knows they will likely be the #3 or even #4 option on offense, and offense = $$$$ when it's time for the next contract. The NBA season is not necessarily any less of a grind being the #3 option than it is being the #1; still a lot of minutes to play, and still a chance of injury when the clock hits 33 years of age.

I'll start with Horford. If Horford's agent is at all worth his commission, he knew exactly how much Boston was willing to offer if Al opted out, and he also knew what Philly (and possibly other teams) were willing to offer that offseason. If Horford opted in, he would have taken a risk of a drop in usage leading to a drop in stats and subsequently a drop in dollars. $97 million guaranteed is a lot more than the $30 million guaranteed or whatever his opt-in amount would have been. He would have been really rolling the dice had he opted in, and there was no way Danny was going to come close to matching Philly's offer, and everyone knew it (players, agents, GMs, etc.). Turns out that he made the right decision; he probably would have cost himself $20-40M in career earnings had he opted in.

Hayward was even more vocal that he did not want to be the #3 or #4 option. If he's healthy and scoring in a high usage role for Charlotte, he's looking at a very nice payday again in 2 years. If that doesn't work out, he's still got himself $120 million guaranteed. Had he opted in and was the #3/4 option for the Celtics, and battled injuries again, he likely wouldn't be looking at that money this offseason at age 31.
 

lovegtm

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Making a point to praise Brad when he does stuff well, since I was vocal in being down on him:

The team is playing hard and showing some resilience, and he did a good job game-planning to work switches and actions to get Durant off Tatum, which really made a big difference.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Making a point to praise Brad when he does stuff well, since I was vocal in being down on him:

The team is playing hard and showing some resilience, and he did a good job game-planning to work switches and actions to get Durant off Tatum, which really made a big difference.
Anyone know where to find defensive matchup results for individual games? When I look at NBA.com, it only has totals for the entire series not game by game.

I ask this because Nichols (I think) said that JT was 5-6 at halftime when guarded by Durant.

NBA.com says that JT is shooting 8-13 when guarded by Durant this series. It looks to my eye that KD can contest JT's shots fine but can't guard JT when KD has to move laterally.
 

lovegtm

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Anyone know where to find defensive matchup results for individual games? When I look at NBA.com, it only has totals for the entire series not game by game.

I ask this because Nichols (I think) said that JT was 5-6 at halftime when guarded by Durant.

NBA.com says that JT is shooting 8-13 when guarded by Durant this series. It looks to my eye that KD can contest JT's shots fine but can't guard JT when KD has to move laterally.
I don't always trust those numbers, because you don't see the shots that a guy wasn't able to get off at all.

The eye test had Durant as a bad matchup for Tatum the first 2 games, but I could be wrong.

The main data point I'm going off here is that the Celtics were making an obvious effort to get Durant switched off Tatum on most 2nd half possessions; that can be easily confirmed by watching the tape.
 

Eddie Jurak

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What a difference an opportunity to practice can make. The Celtics defense was just way more connected, with way better rotations.

The strangest eye test matchup I noticed was Romeo repeatedly singled up on Durant. I don't know if that was Brooklyn hunting that matchup or something the Celtics wanted, but I saw it happen 3 straight trips down the court with Durant getting 3 shots off and hitting 2. I don't think Romeo's super long arms are quite enough to offset the 6 inches he gives up in height. I saw this matchup happen one other time later in the game and Durant scored again.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Making a point to praise Brad when he does stuff well, since I was vocal in being down on him:

The team is playing hard and showing some resilience, and he did a good job game-planning to work switches and actions to get Durant off Tatum, which really made a big difference.
Game result be damned.....Brad’s inability to properly utilize his challenges is maddening and could have cost us the game last night that would be 4 page thread by now if not for Tatum’s heroics. This continues to be an ongoing issue.

1. Didn’t challenge the goaltending call that would have been reversed.
2. Challenged the Smart foul when their was obvious lower body contact that can never be reversed.
3. Didn’t have challenge available (see #2) for Tatum foul that would have been overturned.
 

lovegtm

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Game result be damned.....Brad’s inability to properly utilize his challenges is maddening and could have cost us the game last night that would be 4 page thread by now if not for Tatum’s heroics. This continues to be an ongoing issue.

1. Didn’t challenge the goaltending call that would have been reversed.
2. Challenged the Smart foul when their was obvious lower body contact that can never be reversed.
3. Didn’t have challenge available (see #2) for Tatum foul that would have been overturned.
I mean, after the Durant offensive foul overturn, I can't really take challenges seriously, so it's hard to criticise their utilization.

But yeah, that initial goaltend was an obvious challenge.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I mean, after the Durant offensive foul overturn, I can't really take challenges seriously, so it's hard to criticise their utilization.

But yeah, that initial goaltend was an obvious challenge.
We’ve learned that when there is any type of contact and your challenging that there was none.......it isn’t being being overturned. Yet there Brad was, pacing the sideline like an NFL Head Coach before finally throwing his red hanky onto the field as we are all watching the replay multiple times in our living rooms. Maddening.
 

lovegtm

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We’ve learned that when there is any type of contact and your challenging that there was none.......it isn’t being being overturned. Yet there Brad was, pacing the sideline like an NFL Head Coach before finally throwing his red hanky onto the field as we are all watching the replay multiple times in our living rooms. Maddening.
Unless you are Kevin Durant and out-of-control plow a guy over, then there is no choice but to overturn.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Brad is 37.89% more likely to challenge a call if the player involved in the play confidently twirls his finger at him after the play (unless it's Grant).

Ironically, he often gets killed for hanging on to the challenge too long and now he'll get shit for not holding on to it long enough to challenge the more obvious play. I think the least likely calls to get overturned are the ones that involve hands swiping at the ball. Challenging that play was a poor decision.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Game result be damned.....Brad’s inability to properly utilize his challenges is maddening and could have cost us the game last night that would be 4 page thread by now if not for Tatum’s heroics. This continues to be an ongoing issue.

1. Didn’t challenge the goaltending call that would have been reversed.
2. Challenged the Smart foul when their was obvious lower body contact that can never be reversed.
3. Didn’t have challenge available (see #2) for Tatum foul that would have been overturned.
Team came out incredibly flat too. Seems to happen often, starting a half slow. That and not being able to close out quarters.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The NBA should just lose the challenge anyway. The threshold to overturn makes no sense ND is arbitrary
It’s here to stay. Many times it’s still subjective but 80-90% seem to be the correct call from my seat. I would like to hear from the review official his description of the Smart/Durant play or that of Javie in the box.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don't always trust those numbers, because you don't see the shots that a guy wasn't able to get off at all.

The eye test had Durant as a bad matchup for Tatum the first 2 games, but I could be wrong.

The main data point I'm going off here is that the Celtics were making an obvious effort to get Durant switched off Tatum on most 2nd half possessions; that can be easily confirmed by watching the tape.
No I agree with you that the Cs were trying to switch JT onto just about anyone else, although at the end, they switched JT onto Bruce Brown a couple of times and I'd pick someone else if it were up to me.

I was just surprised when someone said that JT was 5-6 against KD (maybe I misheard?). Although it seems to me that KD is not moving all that well laterally.
What a difference an opportunity to practice can make. The Celtics defense was just way more connected, with way better rotations.

The strangest eye test matchup I noticed was Romeo repeatedly singled up on Durant. I don't know if that was Brooklyn hunting that matchup or something the Celtics wanted, but I saw it happen 3 straight trips down the court with Durant getting 3 shots off and hitting 2. I don't think Romeo's super long arms are quite enough to offset the 6 inches he gives up in height. I saw this matchup happen one other time later in the game and Durant scored again.
I was watching Romeo on KD and it seemed intentional to me. After all, after JT, who else that played last night had a better chance guarding KD on the Cs?

I counter Romeo forcing 2 misses, including an important one down the stretch when KD tried the one-foot Dirk fadeaway. I thought Romeo was credible given that he's giving up at least 6 inches, maybe more.
 

bsj

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It’s here to stay. Many times it’s still subjective but 80-90% seem to be the correct call from my seat. I would like to hear from the review official his description of the Smart/Durant play or that of Javie in the box.
I dont see it.

My problem with this challenge is exactly the same issue I have with challenge mechanisms in all sports. The threshold to overturn is too high.

It seems like in each sport, if the replay shows the call more likely than not to be wrong...say 60-70%...they refuse to overturn it. I don't get that and never will.

Replay should be about getting every single call as right as can be. Instead it's about only overturning egregious errors and being perfectly fine with games being decided by more likely than not errors

I'm tired of seeing the technology wasted to benefit the officiating unions.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I dont see it.

My problem with this challenge is exactly the same issue I have with challenge mechanisms in all sports. The threshold to overturn is too high.

It seems like in each sport, if the replay shows the call more likely than not to be wrong...say 60-70%...they refuse to overturn it. I don't get that and never will.

Replay should be about getting every single call as right as can be. Instead it's about only overturning egregious errors and being perfectly fine with games being decided by more likely than not errors

I'm tired of seeing the technology wasted to benefit the officiating unions.
As we evolve it will improve but the coaches know what the parameters are to get a call overturned. Brad should know that when Smart has contact with an off balance Durant that sends him to the ground it isn’t getting overturned. I’m not saying 80-90% getting the call correct as correctness doesn’t exist with subjective calls......I’m saying we know what the parameters are today and can easily decipher 80-90% of what the replay officials ruling will be.
 

Jimbodandy

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Team came out and played their balls off and won, especially after Saint Spoelstra's (with Jimmy Butler) Heat prostrated themselves before Milwaukee. And we're talking about how Brad utilizes his ONE challenge that the league often fucks up anyway? Ok.
 

lexrageorge

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Team came out and played their balls off and won, especially after Saint Spoelstra's (with Jimmy Butler) Heat prostrated themselves before Milwaukee. And we're talking about how Brad utilizes his ONE challenge that the league often fucks up anyway? Ok.
Shhh, you'll blow the "Spoelstra is a genius while Stevens is an amateur" narrative that this thread relies upon. If the Heat lose their series 4-0, it will be due to the talent discrepancy. If the Celtics lose this one in 5 or 6 or 7, it will be because Stevens was outcoached, despite the obviously flawed roster that was there for everyone to see all season.
 

PedroKsBambino

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It’s here to stay. Many times it’s still subjective but 80-90% seem to be the correct call from my seat. I would like to hear from the review official his description of the Smart/Durant play or that of Javie in the box.
Anything they say other than "we intensely dislike Marcus Smart and wanted to stick it to him" is a flat-out lie as an explanation, imo. Well, to be fair, unless there is some sneaky hand action which I have not yet seen on a replay that overturn should get several people a vacation for the rest of the playoffs and a note in their performance review that if they can't keep their personal feelings out of the game they will be unemployed soon. Remember this is all after that technical foul overrule a couple weeks ago where the replay demonstrated Smart couldn't possibly have had intent. There's not much of a case that he is getting a fair shake, and while his own actions have absolutely contributed to that situation the NBA needs to do better to level the playing field in the playoffs.

I agree with HRB that whether or not the review gets the call 'right' we do have a pretty good sense of what will and won't be overturned/changed. For example, contact wtih the head is always open to being changed in either direction; block/charge is open to being changed. A foul which is challenged where any contact occurred (even if incidental/not normally called) is highly unlikely to be changed.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Marcus earlier drew an offensive foul against Kyrie, when Kyrie actually put his hand palm out on Smart's chest, prompting Smart to throw himself backwards.
 

Five Cent Head

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But yeah, that initial goaltend was an obvious challenge.
Was it? The call was obviously wrong, but do you want to spend a challenge in this case? People must have run the numbers on these sorts of situations.

- If you win, you take 2 points off the board, obviously a good thing.
- Then there is a jump ball (I think?), and they should have statistics about how that's going to come out given the people on the floor. Let's say it's 50%.
- If the Nets lose the jump ball, the analysis is over, you're +2 points.
- If the Nets win the jump ball, they'll get 0-3, maybe even 4 points, with probabilities attached to each. Say it's 50% that they get at least 2 points. (Given the Nets' personnel on the floor, what is their actual expected points per possession? That would be better to use.)

So you're spending a challenge to take two points off the board but with a 25% chance of adding at least 2 points, so you're gaining at most 1.5 points. Are there more valuable challenges? Is it worth more to challenge to try to prevent foul 4 on some player? Foul 6? What about impact on the flow of the game? Is it better to wait until some "crucial" moment later in the game? Where are the analyses of what plays are best to challenge, how much a challenge is likely to gain if successful?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Marcus earlier drew an offensive foul against Kyrie, when Kyrie actually put his hand palm out on Smart's chest, prompting Smart to throw himself backwards.
Yeah, Smart’s reputation as a flopper probably didn’t help him any in the minds of Secaucus.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yeah, Smart’s reputation as a flopper probably didn’t help him any in the minds of Secaucus.
Probably true, but an indictment of the NBA for sure as well. Worrying about reputations is and has been a big issue in officiating---Harden draws several fouls a game on reputation alone. It's part of the game, but it shouldn't be. Once you have super-slow mo replay you should be doing things on the merits. Shame on the NBA for continuing not to do so.