The Outfield--What are the options??

[Savin Hillbilly]

clearly Adams and Dunn are crap in your eyes

 
No, they're both very capable LH hitters. The problem is, we already have a first baseman and a DH, so we'd have nowhere to put them.
 
I mean, seriously...the Cardinals put Allen Craig in RF so that Matt Adams could play first. This is not because Craig is a brilliant RF, but because 1B is the only place Adams can play. It's not rocket science. There might have been past Red Sox FOs that would have taken the approach of "grab the best available bat, stick him wherever there's an opening, and hope for the best". This is not that Red Sox FO, and I am happy about that.

 

[knucklecup]

Dunn has played 14 games in the OF since 2009.  Here is a link to his advanced stats on Baseball Reference.  
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dunnad01-field.shtml
 
Gomes
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gomesjo01-field.shtml

It's not all black and white here. The White Sox have had an opening at DH, which is his ideal position, but not the only position he's capable of playing.

 

[Cuzittt]

Yes... yes it is. Dunn is an atrocious outfielder. Dunn is a DH. Period. He is NOT an option for the Red Sox outfield no matter how much you may wish it to be.

 

[kieckeredinthehead]

Making a mockery of Dunn's defense in LF and being content with Gomes' seems hypocritical. I think Fenway masks many of his flaws.

And the point of the deal would be to have an Ortiz-Napoli-Dunn middle of the order.

Also best friends with Peavy.

What about Matt Adams? Seems like the odd man out with Tavares called up. He mashes righties.

Just seems like if Buch and Doubie come back solid, or De La Rosa and/or Workman replace that production, they have a team that can make the playoffs.

RHP:

Pedroia 2B
Boegarts 3B
Ortiz DH
Napoli 1B
Dunn/Adams LF
Nava RF
Pierzynski C
Drew SS
Bradley CF

Right now you have about 4-5 automatic outs in the line up. That line up has one. 

 
Even your arithmetic skills are off right now. Please explain how we put Napoli back in the line-up, acquire Dunn to play LF (literally the stupidest thing I can remember reading on here), and that changes the "automatic outs" from 5 to 1?

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Huh? I'm suggesting a strict Gomes/Dunn platoon. If you're resided to suck defensively with Gomes, it shouldn't be an issue to have the second part of the platoon also be a bad defensive LF'er.
Dunn has a career 896 OPS against righties, has been even better than that this season, can play 1B if needed, allows for Nava to get consistent at-bats in RF while Vic works his way back.
Just not ready to punt 2014.

Either way I don't see how he's far superior at the plate. He's Mark Reynolds but slower. No thanks.

 

[radsoxfan]

Huh? I'm suggesting a strict Gomes/Dunn platoon. If you're resided to suck defensively with Gomes, it shouldn't be an issue to have the second part of the platoon also be a bad defensive LF'er.
 

 
If you want to make an argument for Dunn in the outfield, the argument you should be making (which is sort of interesting actually), is how much harm can a left fielder do defensively? Dunn is not an OF. There is no rational argument otherwise. It sort of feels like you are trolling even trying to argue that Dunn and Gomes are similarly bad at defense.  There might be as big of a gap between JBJ and Gomes as there is between Gomes and Dunn. 
 
However, given the putrid production form the OF this year…. I suppose you could try to argue that having a .850 OPS LF is worth it, even if you have a David Ortiz-type player trying to play the OF.  If your other options are .600 OPS guys who aren't very good at D, then maybe taking the extreme defensive hit of playing a DH in the OF could make sense.  I doubt the Red Sox would ever do that, and I doubt it's a good strategy.  But that's the only argument you can try to make.  Arguing Dunn is simply a bad defender like Gomes is asinine.  

 

[knucklecup]

Ha. The overanalyzation is laughable.

How to solve the outfield woes, you must figure out where those woes are.

It's clearly in offensive production from the OF. The easiest decision would be to get fleeced by Miami (not even a true possibility) for Stanton but that doesn't seem likely.

So you think of alternatives... Dunn struck me as someone who in LF, is no way worse than Gomes, and is still elite offensively against RHP.

He would cost nothing to acquire.

But if you're content in throwing away a season, by all means, let's do it.

 

[radsoxfan]

So you think of alternatives... Dunn struck me as someone who in LF, is no way worse than Gomes, and is still elite offensively against RHP.
 

 
As explained above to you by many others, this "epiphany" you had is completely incorrect.  Go back to the drawing board. 

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Ha. The overanalyzation is laughable.
He would cost nothing to acquire.
But if you're content in throwing away a season, by all means, let's do it.

Dunn would cost money (quite a bit) and a player or two.

Your first and last sentence are trying to kill each other in the logic octagon.

 

[snowmanny]

It's not all black and white here. The White Sox have had an opening at DH, which is his ideal position, but not the only position he's capable of playing.

Do you think it means anything that you've posted in support of Dunn's outfield abilities multiple times now and not one single other member has chimed in in agreement? If they put Dunn in LF they will have to find another starting pitcher because Lackey's head would explode.

 

[knucklecup]

 
If you want to make an argument for Dunn in the outfield, the argument you should be making (which is sort of interesting actually), is how much harm can a left fielder do defensively? Dunn is not an OF. There is no rational argument otherwise. It sort of feels like you are trolling even trying to argue that Dunn and Gomes are similarly bad at defense.  There might be as big of a gap between JBJ and Gomes as there is between Gomes and Dunn. 
 
However, given the putrid production form the OF this year. I suppose you could try to argue that having a .850 OPS LF is worth it, even if you have a David Ortiz-type player trying to play the OF.  If your other options are .600 OPS guys who aren't very good at D, then maybe taking the extreme defensive hit of playing a DH in the OF could make sense.  I doubt the Red Sox would ever do that, and I doubt it's a good strategy.  But that's the only argument you can try to make.  Arguing Dunn is simply a bad defender like Gomes is asinine.  

Well then fine. I'll agree to disagre on his LF defensive value because the numbers influencing your opinion are based off of entirely too small of sample sizes but that was never the point to begin with.

Dunn is an ELITE offensive player against RHP. Roughly a 900 OPS in thousands of at bats.

How on earth would this guy not help the current team?

 

[knucklecup]

Do you think it means anything that you've posted in support of Dunn's outfield abilities multiple times now and not one single other member has chimed in in agreement? If they put Dunn in LF they will have to find another starting pitcher because Lackey's head would explode.

Dunn's defense is entirely irrelevant.

Brock Holt in LF with no data, at 1B with no data... Heads should be exploding days ago.

 

[knucklecup]

Dunn would cost money (quite a bit) and a player or two.

Your first and last sentence are trying to kill each other in the logic octagon.

He would cost a middling prospect with the contract being subsidized or they would give him up for nothing.

Mujica for Dunn.

 

[radsoxfan]

How on earth would this guy not help the current team?

 
Rightly or wrongly, I had assumed your 2:07 am post on the virtues of Adam Dunn as a major league outfielder were probably alcohol induced. 
 
The fact that you are doubling down on this opinion today suggests you are either on quite a bender, or simply insane. 

 

[Toe Nash]

Well then fine. I'll agree to disagre on his LF defensive value because the numbers influencing your opinion are based off of entirely too small of sample sizes but that was never the point to begin with.

Dunn is an ELITE offensive player against RHP. Roughly a 900 OPS in thousands of at bats.

How on earth would this guy not help the current team?

The sample size is small because MULTIPLE MLB MANAGERS HAVE CONCLUDED HE CANNOT PLAY THE OUTFIELD AT A MAJOR-LEAGUE LEVEL.
 
Offensively: Most of those ABs came when he was younger. Players tend to perform worse as they age. Their defensive skills also deteriorate.
 
Dunn OPS v RHP:
2010: .965
2011: .646
2012: .817
2013: .786
2014: .906 (174 PAs thus far)
 
Even if he can magically play the outfield that doesn't look very good unless this year is the start of a renaissance at age 34.

 

[MakMan44]

Because he'd be the worst OFer on our team, by far and unless I'm missing something, you've only suggested he'd be playing in LF in Fenway. So you're suggesting, again unless I missed something, that they at least take on the rest of his contract (and maybe give up assets) for a guy who'd play in around a quarter of the remaining games. 

 

[knucklecup]

I see a 900 OPS against RHP. I see an anemic Red Sox offense. I see how Dunn's ability to platoon would be compelling.

I write in an intoxicated state this thought, probably around the time he hit his HR for the White Sox, because it's something the Red Sox lack immensely.

And the White Sox would give him up for nothing.

 

[keninten]

Dunn is beyond ridiculous. knucklecup are you his agent or what? This has got to stop. I feel like I`m being buried in the sandbox.

 

[knucklecup]

The sample size is small because MULTIPLE MLB MANAGERS HAVE CONCLUDED HE CANNOT PLAY THE OUTFIELD AT A MAJOR-LEAGUE LEVEL.
 
Offensively: Most of those ABs came when he was younger. Players tend to perform worse as they age. Their defensive skills also deteriorate.
 
Dunn OPS v RHP:
2010: .965
2011: .646
2012: .817
2013: .786
2014: .906 (174 PAs thus far)
 
Even if he can magically play the outfield that doesn't look very good unless this year is the start of a renaissance at age 34.

It really doesn't have much to do with managers not wanting to play him in LF. He just made sense at DH for those White Sox teams.

He did have a bad season to start. Some people credit playing DH when he truly wants to play the field. Who knows.

But he's been good ever since. And great this year. There's no long term commitment. Prospect you have to give up will be negligible.

Just a though.

Does anybody have any ideas? Or are you content? It'll turn?

 

[knucklecup]

Dunn is beyond ridiculous. knucklecup are you his agent or what? This has got to stop. I feel like I`m being buried in the sandbox.

Why is it ridiculous? This is the main board. Make a quality post with facts.

 

[MakMan44]

It really doesn't have much to do with managers not wanting to play him in LF. He just made sense at DH for those White Sox teams.

You're just pulling this out of your ass. 
 
Ironically I actually wouldn't mind Dunn, he'd be a decent fit IMO if Napoli was expected to miss some long period of time. Trying to suggest that he play the OF though, just takes away from your argument. 

 

[knucklecup]

You're just pulling this out of your ass. 
 
Ironically I actually wouldn't mind Dunn, he'd be a decent fit IMO if Napoli was expected to miss some long period of time. Trying to suggest that he play the OF though, just takes away from your argument. 

Fair enough on the second part.

Just disagree wholeheartedly on the first part and don't understand how you can possibly make that statement.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

But if you're content in throwing away a season, by all means, let's do it.

 
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
 
I don't think any of us is ready to "throw away the season" yet. There does come a point where realistically you need to do that, and focus on the future, but there's at least a month to play before the Sox need to go there.
 
We're not arguing against the proposition that the Sox could be improved by adding a good OF bat (though your fixation on a LH bat is a little odd considering that the Sox have been almost equally weak vs. LHP and RHP so far, and we just added a guy who hits only RHP). But Dunn makes no sense. He has no good role here. Adding him would be a panic move. It would be flailing. We're arguing against flailing.
 
Maybe "it'll turn," maybe it won't. But crossing our fingers that one of the current guys will step up makes more sense than adding somebody who would subtract as many runs with his glove as he'd add with his bat.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

And the White Sox would give him up for nothing.

You keep stating this as fact. Why exactly would the Pale Sox do this? Especially for a middling prospect or, as you mentioned, Mujica?

 

[MakMan44]

Just disagree wholeheartedly on the first part and don't understand how you can possibly make that statement.

Because you have no proof to support that? Are there articles suggesting that the White Sox wanted to play him in OF?
 
I mean, he has a positive UZR in the OF exactly ONCE in his career. You really think the Reds would have kept him in the OF if they had a DH spot open all season long?

 

[knucklecup]

Rios, Quention, De Aza, Lastings Milledge, Vicideo... They weren't ever planning on giving him the LF job outright in year one.

 

[MakMan44]

Rios, Quention, De Aza, Lastings Milledge, Vicideo... They weren't ever planning on giving him the LF job outright in year one.

Again, this is just conjecture. Do you have any solid proof to back your claim that managers WANTED Dunn out in the OF?

 

[keninten]

Why is it ridiculous? This is the main board. Make a quality post with facts.

You`ve been given the facts over and over. You`re beating the dead horse. The only solution here is to agree to disagree.

 

[Toe Nash]

Why is it ridiculous? This is the main board. Make a quality post with facts.

This is something you have yet to do.
 
Here are some of the first few results from a Google search for "adam dunn defense":
 
From 2010: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/eight-thoughts-on-adam-dunn/ This has a link to the tangotiger fan scouting project. Since he hasn't played significant time in the field since he's been in the AL, let's go back to the last time he was in the NL:

 
"Despite being a tremendous hitter, Dunn’s defense both in the outfield and at first base, according to defensive metrics as well as scouting reports, is so dreadful that it seriously compromises his overall value..."

2010: Ranked by fans as the worst defensive player on the Nationals: http://www.tangotiger.net/scout/2010/index4.php?teamid=120&team=Washington%20Nationals
2009: While mostly playing the outfield, again ranked as the worst defensive player on the Nats: http://www.tangotiger.net/scout/2009/index4.php?teamid=120&team=Washington%20Nationals
2008: Ranked as the second-worst player on the Red: http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults2008_CIN.html
 
OK, maybe the fans who visit Tangotiger's site just have it in for him. Let's see if we can find some professional opinions:
 
2010: "Report: Nationals unlikely to re-sign Adam Dunn because of his defense:" http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/09/28/report-nationals-unlikely-to-re-sign-adam-dunn-because-of-his-defense/

 
"today Ben Goessling of MASNSports.com writes that “sources familiar with the team’s thinking” believe “they’re likely to let him walk” as a free agent.
According to Goessling “the team continues to view Dunn’s defense at first base as a sticking point, and is reluctant to give him the four-year deal he prefers because of it.”

Here's his manager, Ventura, in spring training. If there was a time to see if he could get into game shape in the outfield, well, spring training would be it:

 
(http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-03-09/sports/ct-bits-white-sox-spring-training-spt-0310-20140310_1_dayan-viciedo-left-field-left-shin)

Ventura still insists Dunn will play outfield.
 
""That'll be in there," he said. "I haven't broken that out yet. Once the roster goes down a little bit, you'll have some flexibility to do that. But we have a lot of guys in the outfield right now. Just making sure they get their time in too. It's not a high priority to get him in the outfield right now."
 
Ventura said he doesn't plan to play Dunn in the outfield during the season."

It seems like Dunn himself realizes he is a bad defender (http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/adam-dunn-an-oscar-hopeful-as-partial-investor-in-dallas-buyers-club-1.7246577): 
 

"It seems," Dunn joked, "like it always happens to me. The Gold Glove, every year I get snubbed on that, so I'm used to it."
 

 

There is absolutely no one in the baseball universe except you who thinks Adam Dunn can play anything more than an emergency left field, even in the smallest park in the majors. He was a disaster when he was in his prime and gave back in the field most of what he gained at the plate. And now he is 5 years older, likely heavier, and certainly out of practice. Even Dunn himself thinks his defense is a joke.
 
You are making things up with nothing to back them up and when presented with contrary evidence you are doubling down on your incorrect opinions. That you asked for "facts" is laughable. This is an expert troll job or as others said, an insane opinion.

 

[williams_482]

Well then fine. I'll agree to disagre on his LF defensive value because the numbers influencing your opinion are based off of entirely too small of sample sizes but that was never the point to begin with.

Dunn is an ELITE offensive player against RHP. Roughly a 900 OPS in thousands of at bats.

How on earth would this guy not help the current team?

 
Adam Dunn, for his career, has played 8451.2 innings in LF and 798.1 innings in RF. He has accumulated exactly 85 of those innings since he turned 30, and he is currently 34. 
 
His career UZR/150 in the outfield is -13.4. His career DRS/150 (back of the napkin calculation from raw totals) is -14.6. 
 
UZR/DRS can have problems in small samples. 9,250 innings is not a small sample. Adam Dunn sucks at playing defense. 
 
EDIT: 
In fairness, Defensive stats don't have many good things to say about Jonny Gomes either. in 4506 innings between LF and RF he has an UZR/150 of -12.3 and a DRS/150 of -16.2. 

 

[SoxLegacy]

I think that Eck's observation that knucklecup's thoughts are at odds with each other in the "logic octagon" is both deserving of significant love, and also appropriate for several other people here. Look, presently the season is going badly and none of us are happy about it, but I used to read a lot of thoughtful and thought provoking posts here. Now amongst the good posts we get people suggesting trading Pedey and Lester (among others), citing the talent of Betts and pick-a-starter at Pawtucket. Come on folks, really? Let's swap our potential HOF 2B and face of the franchise for an outfielder because Mookie Betts is right on his heels? What could go wrong? Or let's trade Lester and go with one of the hot arms from AAA because he is 31 and will cost a lot and probably isn't that good after all and why worry about our pitching staff from 2015+?
 
Last time I checked, the baseball season is a marathon not a sprint. The Sox had a season for the ages last year, and have been one of the most consistently good franchises in MLB over the last 16 years. Does these panicked members of RSN recall Cherington talking about building the "next great Red Sox team"? Tell me, how does trading Pedroia or Lester or Koji do that? And don't get me started on trading for Dunn...

 

[Plympton91]

I'm not in favor of trading any of Koji, Lester, or Pedroia, but whether trading them helps in building the "next great Red Sox team" depends on your timeframe and what you target in return. If you can get a Micheal Choice type and you have 2017 as a target, then you're good.

If you think I'm paying for MLB extra innings between now and 2017 with that strategy in place, you're mistaken. If the Sox go that route, I'll just get season tickets to the minor league team around the corner or play a lot more golf.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

I think that Eck's observation that knucklecup's thoughts are at odds with each other in the "logic octagon" is both deserving of significant love, and also appropriate for several other people here. Look, presently the season is going badly and none of us are happy about it, but I used to read a lot of thoughtful and thought provoking posts here. Now amongst the good posts we get people suggesting trading Pedey and Lester (among others), citing the talent of Betts and pick-a-starter at Pawtucket. Come on folks, really? Let's swap our potential HOF 2B and face of the franchise for an outfielder because Mookie Betts is right on his heels? What could go wrong? Or let's trade Lester and go with one of the hot arms from AAA because he is 31 and will cost a lot and probably isn't that good after all and why worry about our pitching staff from 2015+?
 
Last time I checked, the baseball season is a marathon not a sprint. The Sox had a season for the ages last year, and have been one of the most consistently good franchises in MLB over the last 16 years. Does these panicked members of RSN recall Cherington talking about building the "next great Red Sox team"? Tell me, how does trading Pedroia or Lester or Koji do that? And don't get me started on trading for Dunn...

Oh come on, there's some quality creative thinking going on in this thread!  I'm all on board the Dunn/Adams in LF train - let's get both and maybe one can play short after we throw Drew into a trade for Stanton! (Personally, I think Drew + Workman might get it done)  Can anyone find a quote from Tony Larussa proving that Adams couldn't handle short?  Think of our lineup then!!!1!!
 
I don't know about Betts replacing Pedroia though.  We've already got Holt to play there after we find some sucker to take Pedroia's albatross contract off our hands.   Maybe Betts could play some catcher!  He couldn't be any worse than AJP and it would add to his value as a Ben Zobrist play-all-nine-positions-in-one-game sort of player!  If Craig Biggio can move from catcher to second, why couldn't Mookie go the other way!?
 
Come on people, we're desperate!  We can't rule anything out!

 

[kieckeredinthehead]

Oh come on, there's some quality creative thinking going on in this thread!  I'm all on board the Dunn/Adams in LF train - let's get both and maybe one can play short after we throw Drew into a trade for Stanton! (Personally, I think Drew + Workman might get it done)  

 
The only reason that Dunn hasn't played shortstop is that all of his teams have found other people to play shortstop instead of him.

 

[radsoxfan]

 
 
In fairness, Defensive stats don't have many good things to say about Jonny Gomes either. in 4506 innings between LF and RF he has an UZR/150 of -12.3 and a DRS/150 of -16.2. 

 
I'm not sure 25 year old Jonny Gomes or 23 year old Adam Dunn really have much to do with the current versions of these players.  
 
Gomes has settled in as a below average, but playable outfielder over the past handful of seasons.  Dunn was rapidly declining, and in 2009 (!!!) it was determined he was no longer capable of playing OF in the major leagues.  Trends matter. 

 

[knucklecup]

Have yet to see one other suggestion for how to improve other than A. bring up Betts or B. live and die with Nava.

If you're looking to punt 2014, these are fantastic plans.

Dunn's lack of playing time defensively in LF has far more to do with the OF depth the White Sox have had, and their future Hall of Famer Paul Konerko.

That isn't to say he's some fantastic LF'er, but he provides a skillset that the team currently doesn't have.

If we want to stick with Nava/Gomes in LF, something I'm completely content with, then an elite RF/CF needs to be acquired. JBJ/Victorino/superstar who will cost an arm and a leg to do so.

There are all sorts of ways to improve this squad. If Dunn was slightly more competent in LF defensively, any rebuttal that you guys have had would be completely null and void. His offensive skillset is precisely what the Red Sox need in the outfield.

 

[knucklecup]

 
I'm not sure 25 year old Jonny Gomes or 23 year old Adam Dunn really have much to do with the current versions of these players.  
 
Gomes has settled in as a below average, but playable outfielder over the past handful of seasons.  Dunn was rapidly declining, and in 2009 (!!!) it was determined he was no longer capable of playing OF in the major leagues.  Trends matter. 

Who determined in 2009 he wasn't capable of playing the OF? Explain this portion of your post.

 

[Sprowl]

Who determined in 2009 he wasn't capable of playing the OF? Explain this portion of your post.

No, don't. This discussion has passed from the idiotic to the obsessive. Any more mention of the DH who shall not be named, and the thread will be locked.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

Have yet to see one other suggestion for how to improve other than A. bring up Betts or B. live and die with Nava.

 
Brentz, Hassan, C. Brown, Wilkerson et. al have all been mentioned in this thread. And that's just the guys they have. Denorfia among others have also been mentioned. Please re-read the thread.

 

[knucklecup]

The backhanded comments come with the territory but if you don't think I've ready every post in this thread, you don't know me.

Chris Denorfia? There are 3-4 players on the roster who are better than him.

Edit: Oh, he's as a local kid. Now the Denorfia thing makes sense. He might be 33, below average, and as replaceable as they come but don't worry, he was born and raised in Bristol CT.

 

[Eck'sSneakyCheese]

The backhanded comments come with the territory but if you don't think I've ready every post in this thread, you don't know me.

Chris Denorfia? There are 3-4 players on the roster who are better than him.

Edit: Oh, he's as a local kid. Now the Denorfia thing makes sense. He might be 33, below average, and as replaceable as they come but don't worry, he was born and raised in Bristol CT.

 
Then stop saying you've yet to see other suggestions. Be more clear. In your opinion you've yet to see other suggestions you like. Fair?

 

[bosockboy]

The backhanded comments come with the territory but if you don't think I've ready every post in this thread, you don't know me.
Chris Denorfia? There are 3-4 players on the roster who are better than him.
Edit: Oh, he's as a local kid. Now the Denorfia thing makes sense. He might be 33, below average, and as replaceable as they come but don't worry, he was born and raised in Bristol CT.

And an 850 OPS outside of Petco.

 

[radsoxfan]

Edit: Oh, he's as a local kid. Now the Denorfia thing makes sense. He might be 33, below average, and as replaceable as they come but don't worry, he was born and raised in Bristol CT.

 
 
But the real question is, how close is Denorfia with Jake Peavy?

 

[benhogan]

The backhanded comments come with the territory but if you don't think I've ready every post in this thread, you don't know me.

Chris Denorfia? There are 3-4 players on the roster who are better than him.

Edit: Oh, he's as a local kid. Now the Denorfia thing makes sense. He might be 33, below average, and as replaceable as they come but don't worry, he was born and raised in Bristol CT.

Hey Knucklehead,
 
Why Denorfia?
Has speed so he can pinch run.
Can play rf/cf so he can come in late for defense
He bats RH so he could platoon in CF with JBJ this season
He can be the back up RF for the oft injured Victorino
He is cheap on a 1 year deal.
He gets away from Petco.
If he performs well we look to replace Gomes with Denorfia for next season.
 
He is SD 4th or 5th OFer so they would be looking to deal him if SF continues to run away with the West. We will have a 40 man crush this offseason so we can off load Lavernaway and Steven Wright for him.

 

[Sprowl]

Enough! No more D***. That conversation is finished, ovah.

 

[Puffy]

nm.

 

[Cuzittt]

I'm closing the thread. We can start a new one later. This one has gone off the rails and cannot be saved.