The Open Championship - St. Andrews (Old Course)

fletcherpost

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I was talking to a caddymaster at work today who'd been talking to someone who works on the course at St Andrews and he said 'the course was fucked' - i knew exactly what he meant. Other than the wind the only defense the course has is the pin positions. I just watched John Daly's post round interview and he said the pin positions were like Sunday positions. Can they do that for all 4 days?

We've just not been getting much rain at all. The Old Course isn't like Carnoustie where you need to tame the rough to make the course playable, the old course is pretty benign. I dunno what they can do, it is what it is. I think Turnberry is the best course in Scotland on the Open rotation. Here's the view from just inside the road on the 17th. The rough was starting to dry out even then.fairway 17.jpg
 

cshea

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The R&A tends to not really care as much about protecting par as the USGA does with the US Open. The last 5 winning scores at the Old Course are -19, -14, -16. -15. They may keep the pins tucked more than normal but I don't think the scores are going to get outrageously low and would expect something in the -15 to -20 range win.

I still think it's fun. They aren't hitting it 350 yards and then spinning a wedge to 5 feet every hole. They have to think their way around, create the right angle, hit the right type of shot.
 

cshea

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I will say I thought Tiger looked good physically. The body held up, the game just wasn't there. For whatever reason, his short game and putting is terrible.
 

TFP

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I will say I thought Tiger looked good physically. The body held up, the game just wasn't there. For whatever reason, his short game and putting is terrible.
Likely just a lack of practice time with his leg.
 

fletcherpost

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Interesting article; could go in the general golf thread but it relates to the R&A and this week at the Open. I wondered why i wasn't seeing MIckelson in any of the videos on the Open Championchip website. I've not thought too much about this LIV thing, or what the R&A think about it. Been too busy with my own life but this is Open week so i think more about the gowf.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/open-championship-2022-liv-players-cold-shoulder-randa

The R&A is a decorous bunch, officials strategic when they speak and careful with their words when they do...Telling, then, that chief Martin Slumbers rebuked LIV Golf as firmly as he did on the eve of the historic 150th Open Championship at St. Andrews.

“Professional golfers are entitled to choose where they want to play and to accept the prize money that’s offered to them,” Slumbers said Wednesday during his annual press conference ahead of the championship. “I have absolutely no problem with that at all. But there is no such thing as a free lunch. I believe the model we have seen at Centurion and at Pumpkin Ridge is not in the best long-term interest of the sport as a whole and is entirely driven by money. We believe it undermines the merit-based nature and the spirit of open competition that makes golf so special.

Their not-so-subtle stiff-arming of the defectors—there are 23 players in the field who have either played in a LIV event or committed to doing so in the future—began before the week even started, when they asked Greg Norman not to attend the the ceremonial festivities being held in conjunction with the 150th playing of the event. Their justification: this week should be about the 150th Open, and his presence would be a distraction. Essentially: this is our party, and you’re not invited.

It continued into the early part of the week, when the press conference schedule did not feature a single LIV player. Not Phil Mickelson, an Open Champion and legend of the game, and not Louis Oosthuizen, a runaway winner at St. Andrews in 2010. Not Dustin Johnson, a two-time major winner who’s had plenty of close calls at the Open. Not Bryson DeChambeau, a U.S. Open champion with a massive following. And not Brooks Koepka, the best major championship player of the last half-decade.

Next came the release of the opening-round pairings, which included your usual dose of “supergroups.” Rory McIlroy, Collin Morikawa, Xander Schauffele. Tiger Woods, Matt Fitzpatrick, Max Homa. Justin Thomas, Viktor Hovland, Shane Lowry. Will Zalatoris, Tony Finau, Hideki Matsuyama. The thing is, none of these loaded threesomes include any LIV Golfers.

Perhaps the most egregious: Phil Mickelson, six-time major champion, will play his first two rounds alongside Lucas Herbert and Kurt Kitayama, the latter of whom only got into the field with a runner-up finish at the Genesis Scottish Open last week. At the U.S. Open, Mickelson was paired with Oosthuizen and Shane Lowry. rick, Max Homa. Justin Thomas, Viktor Hovland, Shane Lowry. Will Zalatoris, Tony Finau, Hideki Matsuyama. The thing is, none of these loaded threesomes include any LIV Golfers.


Phil's post round interview got a bit snippy in parts. I hadn't noticed that he wasn't wearing his usual KPMG sponsored cap. Man i coulda pasted the enture article it was a bloody interesting read. I respect the R&A, stuffy bastards, but they really do care about the game.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ekyVNHjps8&ab_channel=IrishGolfCourseGuide
 
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cshea

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LIV is going to be a storyline all weekend. The broadcast has amusingly danced around saying "LIV." Wonder how long they keep it up.

DJ -8 thru 16
Gooch -7 finished
Abe -4 thru 11
Poulter -4 thru 1
Westwood -4 hasn't started
Garcia -3 thru 17
Bryson -3 hasn't started

They weren't covering a ton of the LIV guys on the broadcast, until DJ and Gooch forced their way in by rising up the leaderboard. Interestingly, Poulter is the only one I've noticed getting a smattering of boos from the crowd.
 

joe dokes

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LIV is going to be a storyline all weekend. The broadcast has amusingly danced around saying "LIV." Wonder how long they keep it up.

DJ -8 thru 16
Gooch -7 finished
Abe -4 thru 11
Poulter -4 thru 1
Westwood -4 hasn't started
Garcia -3 thru 17
Bryson -3 hasn't started

They weren't covering a ton of the LIV guys on the broadcast, until DJ and Gooch forced their way in by rising up the leaderboard. Interestingly, Poulter is the only one I've noticed getting a smattering of boos from the crowd.
Lots of low scores so far, I think we have to wait to see how good the above actually turn out to be.
 

cshea

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Tiger's going to shoot 72-74 most likely. +1 through 14. Still think he looks stronger than he has all year, which is probably to be expected and encouraging. Looked like the leg gave him some trouble around 5/6 but that's probably his new normal. It'll creep up. Otherwise he's moving quicker, less limp, full crouch to read putts. Short game needs a lot of work.
 

Dave Stapleton

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I totally agree with the Saudi angle and feel taking that blood money is very problematic. However, I find the rest of all this sanctimoneous BS and feel the PGA, R&A, DP Tour and others are being exremely petty and obviously scared. I agree that those like like Reed and Keopka should keep their mouths shut with the cry baby stuff but the way that the others are being villified is a bit much.

Were Jim Kelly, Doug Flutie, Steve Young, Julius Erving, Artis Gilmore, Spencer Heywood and others made out to be bad guys who were destroying institutions?

It's all a bit much and reeks of desperation at this point.
 

Senator Donut

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Were Jim Kelly, Doug Flutie, Steve Young, Julius Erving, Artis Gilmore, Spencer Heywood and others made out to be bad guys who were destroying institutions?
Were any of these athletes attempting to leaving player-owned leagues to despot-owned organizations? That's a hell of a false equivalence.

Like a lot of others here, I don't care for the PGA Tour like I care for the NBA and its teams. It's a pretty mediocre product compared to the majors, Ryder Cup, or even some USGA events and there aren't any brand names like "Boston Celtics" that I'm attached to. It would suck to lose Sawgrass, but that's about it.

Players aren't getting their full market value right now and that's a sad state of things. However, the remedy is not get as much as you can right now then screw over the next generation of golfers once LIV establishes a monopoly and the petroldollars stop flowing.

EDIT: Doug Flute continues to get flack for endearing himself to odious people like Donald Trump, so you're not even correct.
 
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Dave Stapleton

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Players aren't getting their full market value right now and that's a sad state of things. However, the remedy is not get as much as you can right now then screw over the next generation of golfers once LIV establishes a monopoly and the petroldollars stop flowing.

EDIT: Doug Flute continues to get flack for endearing himself to odious people like Donald Trump, so you're not even correct.
Who says? I don't know why these guys are being held to a different standard compared to other athletes. Criticize them for chasing the money if you want but the over the top sanctimony is really nauseating. And I did acknowledge that I do criticize them for the Saudi angle. My point is that this idea of holding professional golf as something more than it is, a sport played by millionaires trying to make as much money as they can while still winning championships, is silly. This is a branding thing, as we can see this weekend. You really think the Old Course is Tiger's favorite course in the world?

And I am correct, Doug Flutie is villified for the reasons you state and also for being a scab during the strike. I said villified for playing in a competing startup league. Whether he is hated for his politics and related points is irrelevant to my point. Add Herschel Walker if you want. Absolutely despicable but not because he played for the USFL.

Edit: I do understand that there are a large number of those on tour grinding it out and playing each week for survival. I just don't buy that it is these guys are the primary focus of all of this.
 

BigMike

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Post match interview says he absolutely plans to play more British Opens, but isn't sure he'll be physically able to play again, when the Open returns to St Andrews
 

yeahlunchbox

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Who says? I don't know why these guys are being held to a different standard compared to other athletes. Criticize them for chasing the money if you want but the over the top sanctimony is really nauseating. And I did acknowledge that I do criticize them for the Saudi angle. My point is that this idea of holding professional golf as something more than it is, a sport played by millionaires trying to make as much money as they can while still winning championships, is silly. This is a branding thing, as we can see this weekend. You really think the Old Course is Tiger's favorite course in the world?

And I am correct, Doug Flutie is villified for the reasons you state and also for being a scab during the strike. I said villified for playing in a competing startup league. Whether he is hated for his politics and related points is irrelevant to my point. Add Herschel Walker if you want. Absolutely despicable but not because he played for the USFL.

Edit: I do understand that there are a large number of those on tour grinding it out and playing each week for survival. I just don't buy that it is these guys are the primary focus of all of this.

The different standard is the entire point of LIV golf. These golfers aren't moving to some humble little startup company that's trying to do right by the players or offering a real alternative to the current tour. They're moving to a league that is giving out money not based in any reality on how much revenue is coming in for the sole purpose of sportswashing a brutal monarchy. You want to get in bed with the Saudi monarchy you get all the money, and flack, that comes with it.
 

Dave Stapleton

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The different standard is the entire point of LIV golf. These golfers aren't moving to some humble little startup company that's trying to do right by the players or offering a real alternative to the current tour. They're moving to a league that is giving out money not based in any reality on how much revenue is coming in for the sole purpose of sportswashing a brutal monarchy. You want to get in bed with the Saudi monarchy you get all the money, and flack, that comes with it.
My last comment on the topic. I have said, if the issue is Saudi money and all that, then say so. The head of the R&A was specifically asked this and he refused to comment. My guess is because both the PGA and Equropean Tour frquently engage with the Saudi's and accept their money for sanctioned events. My point, again, is that this isn't what the organizations are saying, they are talking about golf in hallowed terms as if this is an affront to the sport. Noone has addressed my principal point.

If the issue was politics, I don't think we want to go down that road given that by all available information, 90+% of these guys are hardcore GOP/Trumpistas.
 

Catcher Block

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Xander currently in a cluster of gorse bushes, trying to get relief from a grandstand on his line when there's no chance he'd get it out of the bushes.

Along with the divot rule, they really should change this whole song and dance that holds everyone else up. If you want to take your stance and you manage to hit the ball and it strikes the grandstand you were worried about, then go back and get your free drop. Like a reverse-provisional.
 

cshea

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I think he's going to have to take an unplayable, go back on a line, then the TIO from the grandstand. Spiethian.
 

johnmd20

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Xander currently in a cluster of gorse bushes, trying to get relief from a grandstand on his line when there's no chance he'd get it out of the bushes.

Along with the divot rule, they really should change this whole song and dance that holds everyone else up. If you want to take your stance and you manage to hit the ball and it strikes the grandstand you were worried about, then go back and get your free drop. Like a reverse-provisional.
It is ridiculous that Xander gets free relief after hitting the ball into a needle infested bush.
 

cshea

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He didn't. He tried to argue he could get a club on it and thus hit the grandstand but two rules officals overuled him. He took an unplayable.
 

joe dokes

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Old guy update......John Daly shot himself out of the weekend with bogeys on 16, 17 & 18.
Ernie Els shot 3 over on the last 3 holes yesterday and made no birdies (3 bogeys today) to miss the cut by 1.
 

tbrep

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Kevin Kisner with an absolute putting clinic so far. He’s -7 through 10 (and a few inches away from being -9).
 

BigMike

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The announcers just called this the hardest course in the world to caddy. This definitely doesnt seem right to me
 

Senator Donut

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The announcers just called this the hardest course in the world to caddy. This definitely doesnt seem right to me
The claim makes sense to me. There are a many blind greens, landing areas, and bunkers, so caddies are always needing to find and select the appropriate targets on the horizon. Of course they are also are constantly adjusting for wind.

EDIT: I think the large greens and pin position variety also can dramatically change tee shot strategy from day to day.
 

E5 Yaz

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I know it's a major you have to qualify for, but this leaderboard is something else. No real outliers to speak of up there