The number of cameras available to officials depends on who is broadcasting the game

[soxhop411]

I'm still wondering how the hell Fox didn't have a good camera angle on that. How many cameras do they have at a typical game, 14? More?

Using the above to breakout to a new thread.
View: https://twitter.com/footballzebras/status/1604633831587418112?s=46&t=KvE_I8Ayum_t4IR-9QbDFQ
Every game should use the exact same replay cameras regardless if its being broadcast by public access television or amazon.

The fact that its not standard is insane

how are we in 2022 and the number of cameras available to officials is dependent on who the hell is broadcasting the game?

What is the NFL’s excuse when FIFA and MLB have a standardized camera system that is not dependent on who is broadcasting?

 

[DeadlySplitter]

Yep, no argument from me. This is pretty stupid from the NFL it's not standardized. You're just admitting there are lesser games, screw you we don't care about getting it right against two mediocre teams that wouldn't draw enough on primetime.

I was wondering where the pylon camera view was as that is what was needed for this play. I did not realize it's "big game" only.

 

[soxhop411]

I mean BB was fighting for this all the way back in 2014

ORLANDO, Fla. -- New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick playfully suggested the NFL hold a "bake sale" to pay for the extra cameras it would take to cover all boundary lines to aid instant replay.

"We just spent however many millions of dollars on the replay system. I mean, there are 1,000 cameras in every stadium, so if somebody spills a beer on somebody, we have it on record, right?," Belichick said Tuesday at the NFL meetings. "Maybe we could have a bake sale to raise some money for the cameras. We could do a car wash."

The Patriots put the replay rule proposal on the table for consideration last week. Specifically, the rule would ensure fixed cameras would be added on all boundary lines -- sideline, end line and end zone -- to be made available to officials for instant replays. One of the gripes about the new rule is the added cost involved with adding the cameras.

Another of the Patriots' proposals would extend the goalposts five feet on each side. In speaking with one NFL general manager on Tuesday, the feeling is that it has momentum to pass at some point.

One of the big topics of conversation among owners, coaches and league executives was the engineering aspect behind a potential change, and ensuring the safety of fans. That appears to be the primary hurdle in play for the rule to pass.

"The goalposts, that's outdated, virtually every kicker at the combine can kick them over the top of the goalposts [and] some of those guys aren't even going to be in the league," Belichick said.

"I don't have a percentage, but I'm telling you, any kick that's not outside the 10-yard line or outside the 45-yard line goes over the top of the uprights. I mean, they all do. So to make the officials have to make that judgment, whether it is or it isn't, the angle and all that, I mean, I think we should try to take that judgment out of the game if we can and get it right."

https://www.espn.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/10673007/bill-belichick-new-england-patriots-suggests-nfl-hold-bake-sale

8 years later and the NFL still has this same damn problem

 

[ifmanis5]

Yup. And chips in the ball, which they still don't have. It's a Roger league, he's not smart.

 

[swiftaw]

Yup. And chips in the ball, which they still don't have. It's a Roger league, he's not smart.

Pretty sure they do have chips in the ball. At least from the tracking data I’ve seen.

 

[8slim]

The NFL is remarkably cheap. That’s why.

 

[ifmanis5]

Pretty sure they do have chips in the ball. At least from the tracking data I’ve seen.

They're not being used to figure out if the ball crossed the goal line plane, that's for sure.

 

[swiftaw]

They're not being used to figure out if the ball crossed the goal line plane, that's for sure.

True, because I don’t think they are accurate enough for that.

 

[CFB_Rules]

The NFL is remarkably cheap. That’s why.

You can end the thread, we have a winner

 

[soxhop411]

You can end the thread, we have a winner

Regardless. Thats a terrible excuse especially for a league that is heavily intertwined with sports betting

 

[Salva135]

I don't believe in NFL conspiracies at all, but I definitely don't believe that getting these calls perfect is part of their business model. Bad calls don't hurt this league financially no matter how much fans complain, I've never heard of any system that significantly punishes refs for making bad calls, and the ref standing under the booth or staring at a tablet for 5+ minutes with the entire game on the line is the height of sports drama. I think they like it.

 

[ifmanis5]

They should at least standardize the camera coverage.

 

[soxhop411]

I don't believe in NFL conspiracies at all, but I definitely don't believe that getting these calls perfect is part of their business model. Bad calls don't hurt this league financially no matter how much fans complain, I've never heard of any system that significantly punishes refs for making bad calls, and the ref standing under the booth or staring at a tablet for 5+ minutes with the entire game on the line is the height of sports drama. I think they like it.

As i said above. With pretty much every league being so intertwined with sports gambling they SHOULD be getting every call right. And that starts with standardizing the replay cameras used during games. I mean for fucks sake, your iphone or a gopro could have given you that angle. NFL has no leg to stand on by claiming poverty.

They should at least standardize the camera coverage.

BB has been fighting this battle for a 8 freaking years. And the NFL has done zilch. MLB is literally going to have a more advanced and standardized system before the NFL and MLB was the last league to implement a review system

 

[soxhop411]

Yup. And chips in the ball, which they still don't have. It's a Roger league, he's not smart.

And the owners. If they wanted to spend money on this they would have this done in one off season. But every time a team like NE bring this up during their yearly meeting for the rule changes it gets shot down.
its going to take multiple teams being screwed out of a playoff spot (looking at you NYG) due to the lack of standardized replay for more owners to give a shit
View: https://twitter.com/RochieWBZ/status/1604686949242920960

 

[ifmanis5]

I'm surprised the betting infrastructure of this sport hasn't chimed in yet. They might be the only hope to nudge this in the right direction.

 

[lexrageorge]

And the owners. If they wanted to spend money on this they would have this done in one off season. But every time a team like NE bring this up during their yearly meeting for the rule changes it gets shot down.
its going to take multiple teams being screwed out of a playoff spot (looking at you NYG) due to the lack of standardized replay for more owners to give a shit
View: https://twitter.com/RochieWBZ/status/1604686949242920960

Clearly shows him inbounds. out of bounds

EDIT: Saw that the black tip of his shoe gets confused with the black paint in the end zone. He was out.

To be fair, my perfect replay system is to show full speed replays anyway rather than the frame-by-frame nonsense, in which case the call probably would have stood anyway. But if there was insufficient evidence to overturn this TD, there was also insufficient evidence to overturn Hunter Henry's TD against the Vikings.

 

[Pablo's TB Lover]

Nevermind

 

[DeadlySplitter]

Wow, that image is like an optical illusion. On top of the major black on black issue, field is in tough shape too...

 

[Bongorific]

True, because I don’t think they are accurate enough for that.

Corrupt FIFA was able to develop a ball chip that can tell us whether a player was offside 40 yards down the field. I don’t think lack of technology is the hold up.

 

[soxhop411]

Corrupt FIFA was able to develop a ball chip that can tell us whether a player was offside 40 yards down the field. I don’t think lack of technology is the hold up.

Yah and its not a $$$ issue. Hell the blown call in NO didnt change anything. Feels like it would take a Tim Donaghy Level scandal for the NFL to actually try and change anything

 

[djbayko]

And the owners. If they wanted to spend money on this they would have this done in one off season. But every time a team like NE bring this up during their yearly meeting for the rule changes it gets shot down.
its going to take multiple teams being screwed out of a playoff spot (looking at you NYG) due to the lack of standardized replay for more owners to give a shit
View: https://twitter.com/RochieWBZ/status/1604686949242920960

I said this earlier in the other thread, but this picture confirms what I was talking about. The first replay we were shown on TV clearly showed white paint being tossed up by the planted foot, which is only possible if his foot is out of bounds. Between that side view plus the bird's eye showing his foot was probably out of bounds, that should have been more than enough evidence to make the correct call.

 

[Salva135]

As i said above. With pretty much every league being so intertwined with sports gambling they SHOULD be getting every call right. And that starts with standardizing the replay cameras used during games. I mean for fucks sake, your iphone or a gopro could have given you that angle. NFL has no leg to stand on by claiming poverty.

BB has been fighting this battle for a 8 freaking years. And the NFL has done zilch. MLB is literally going to have a more advanced and standardized system before the NFL and MLB was the last league to implement a review system

What they should do and what they are incentivized to do are very different things. Like I said, I think they like the drama of refs under the booths. If this problem is obvious to you, it's obvious to them. They could easily fix it. They won't.

 

[Salva135]

I mean, eventually this will all get fixed, and chips and all that will replace such calls. But this will be super slow for adoption. Lots of economics will have to happen before we get there.

 

[CFB_Rules]

The NFL doesn’t really care if it’s right, but they DO care if people think it’s right. As the logic goes, if you can’t see the bad call on TV, it didn’t happen. If you can see it on TV, replay should be able to fix it.

 

[mauf]

I think the overhead angle should’ve been enough to overturn the call, but I can’t kill an official operating under intense time pressure for seeing a still image like the right-hand photo in that Dan Roche tweet above and affirming the call on the field. This stuff is harder than it looks.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I think the overhead angle should’ve been enough to overturn the call, but I can’t kill an official operating under intense time pressure for seeing a still image like the right-hand photo in that Dan Roche tweet above and affirming the call on the field. This stuff is harder than it looks.

No it isn't.

That image is showing AFTER his foot had landed out of bounds and he kicked up the white chalk with his toes - airborne white powder - which was the only point of contention on the broadcast.

Because all common sense visual evidence showed he was out of bounds. It wasn't close and was plenty enough evidence to overturn the result.

 

[BigJimEd]

The NFL doesn’t really care if it’s right, but they DO care if people think it’s right. As the logic goes, if you can’t see the bad call on TV, it didn’t happen. If you can see it on TV, replay should be able to fix it.

Exactly. NFL is about optics and optics only. They don't care about making the right call or being fair or any of that. They care about how things look and pocketing every last penny they can.

 

[BigJimEd]

No it isn't.

That image is showing AFTER his foot had landed out of bounds and he kicked up the white chalk with his toes - airborne white powder - which was the only point of contention on the broadcast.

Because all common sense visual evidence showed he was out of bounds. It wasn't close and was plenty enough evidence to overturn the result.

I think if that play happened in the middle of the 2nd quarter in some random game, it gets overturned before the kicker makes it halfway onto the field.

 

[Prodigal Sox]

The NFL is remarkably cheap. That’s why.

I assume the league doesn't have to pay for the cameras if the network provides them for the broadcast. And you would think there should be some standard since replays are now an integral part of the game. And this is a league, albeit the teams, that owes 800M to terminated coaches and staff. But won't pay for a standard cameras setup for replays.

 

[Bongorific]

Exactly. NFL is about optics and optics only. They don't care about making the right call or being fair or any of that. They care about how things look and pocketing every last penny they can.

Yes. And gambling, the sin that was too dangerous for the integrity of the professional sports leagues for decades, is the most likely savior at this point. It was one thing when a relatively small percentage of people were betting with a local bookie. It’s quite another when the majority of Americans watching 10 of hours of football on Sunday have money on the players/games. As the leagues take hundreds of millions from their new gambling partners, more consumers are demanding accurate officiating.

 

[BigJimEd]

Yes. And gambling, the sin that was too dangerous for the integrity of the professional sports leagues for decades, is the most likely savior at this point. It was one thing when a relatively small percentage of people were betting with a local bookie. It’s quite another when the majority of Americans watching 10 of hours of football on Sunday have money on the players/games. As the leagues take hundreds of millions from their new gambling partners, more consumers are demanding accurate officiating.

Yes that is a good point. Increased gambling certainly changes the optics. We'll see how quickly it makes the NFL move.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Does gambling matter? Just as many people won because of that call as lost because of it.

I made a crazy bet at the beginning of the year for Jets and Giants over 14.5 wins. I won last night on a ridiculous no PI call. I know I got lucky and I doubt I will complain much when the next one goes against me.

 

[soxhop411]

Yes. And gambling, the sin that was too dangerous for the integrity of the professional sports leagues for decades, is the most likely savior at this point. It was one thing when a relatively small percentage of people were betting with a local bookie. It’s quite another when the majority of Americans watching 10 of hours of football on Sunday have money on the players/games. As the leagues take hundreds of millions from their new gambling partners, more consumers are demanding accurate officiating.

Yes that is a good point. Increased gambling certainly changes the optics. We'll see how quickly it makes the NFL move.

Im not getting my hopes up re the bolded, and that's for all sports not just the NFL. there is almost no accountability for officials in all North American sports.. Especially relating to officials who make mistakes, yet face almost no repercussions (at least publicly)

 

[djbayko]

Yes. And gambling, the sin that was too dangerous for the integrity of the professional sports leagues for decades, is the most likely savior at this point. It was one thing when a relatively small percentage of people were betting with a local bookie. It’s quite another when the majority of Americans watching 10 of hours of football on Sunday have money on the players/games. As the leagues take hundreds of millions from their new gambling partners, more consumers are demanding accurate officiating.

I think gambling barely registers here, and I wouldn’t be waiting on it to be the savior. Where are the calls coming from to clean things up? Officiating, good and bad, is all part of the game. No one is going to stop gambling because of a bad call, which has happened ever since they can remember watching sports. No one quits watching sports, right? So they obviously feel that the competition is “fair enough”. If anything, gambling gets just as much publicity and social media engagement from a bad call as the league does. Also, as studies have shown, gamblers can get just as much “pleasure” out of losing as they do winning - it’s all about the thrill.

Finally, for every bettor who got unlucky from a a bad call, there’s a bettor who got lucky from that same call. And the guy who got unlucky this week was lucky a few weeks ago.

 

[soxhop411]

I think gambling barely registers here, and I wouldn’t be waiting on it to be the savior. Where are the calls coming from to clean things up? Officiating, good and bad, is all part of the game. No one is going to stop gambling because of a bad call, which has happened ever since they can remember watching games. No one quits watching sports, right? So they obviously feel that the competition is “fair enough”. If anything, gambling gets just as much publicity and social media engagement from a bad call as the league does. Also, as studies have shown, gamblers can get just as much “pleasure” out of losing as they do winning - it’s all about the thrill.

Finally, for every bettor who got unlucky from a a bad call, there’s a bettor who got lucky from that same call. And the guy who got unlucky this week was lucky a few weeks ago.

by gambling I am more referring to tim donaghy type scandal. Not fans gambling..

 

[djbayko]

by gambling I am more referring to tim donaghy type scandal. Not fans gambling..

Hmmm...okay. But it appears I was replying to a separate sub-thread which was talking about fans gambling. None of the replies connect to your post, but I do see where you mentioned it upthread. Frankly, if a Tim Donaghy type scandal is going to happen, it's going to happen regardless of whether there's an extra sideline camera or a chip in the ball. There are so many subjective ways that a ref can influence a game that you can't prevent it without turning the job over to AI robots.

 

[CFB_Rules]

Im not getting my hopes up re the bolded, and that's for all sports not just the NFL. there is almost no accountability for officials in all North American sports.. Especially relating to officials who make mistakes, yet face almost no repercussions (at least publicly)

Think of officiating as operating like the EPL. Every season the bottom 5-6% get fired and move down (or out entirely), and the top 5-6% of the lower leagues move up. That's the "accountability" piece, you need to not end up in that bottom percentage.