The NFL and the National Anthem

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MDLzera
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Gag orders on things like this are contrary to public interest. They should be obligated to tell us all the terrible shit that was said and done about him and players like him, even if they never suffer legal consequences about it. They should be unenforceable as a matter of public policy.
 

triniSox

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Gag orders on things like this are contrary to public interest. They should be obligated to tell us all the terrible shit that was said and done about him and players like him, even if they never suffer legal consequences about it. They should be unenforceable as a matter of public policy.
Good for Kaep but I'm very disappointed in the gag order. I was hoping this lawsuit would bring about real change in how the NFL handles social issues and empowering players to express opinions. With a settlement and gag order, I'm skeptical that will happen.
 

SMU_Sox

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needs a confederate flag background. Also that image + the curb your enthusiasm theme.
 

axx

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Spending $100M+ on this plus DFG sure looks awesome
Well, the Deflategate lawsuits was more about union wars more than anything else.

I'm still skeptical about the players kneeling genuineness in general in that it wasn't really union activity; especially once they got an unlikely "ally" in Trump (ironically enough).
 

Doug Beerabelli

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Gag orders on things like this are contrary to public interest. They should be obligated to tell us all the terrible shit that was said and done about him and players like him, even if they never suffer legal consequences about it. They should be unenforceable as a matter of public policy.
There probably isn't a settlement if gag orders/confidentiality are not part of it. Or it changes the numbers. Kaep didn't have to accept the settlment if he wanted to air this out. Or maybe he got an offer he couldn't refuse.

I'm all for making the NFL owners and officials look bad, so good for Kaep and Reid.
 

DourDoerr

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His kneeling had a real impact and spurred a lot of discussion on a worthy topic. Should he try to keep that discussion alive by trying to play in the AAF? It'd be a hell of a pay cut, but he could afford it now and it might be worth the injury risk to continue the messaging. Also, if he plays well, it puts additional pressure on NFL to bring him in. Right now, they can default to "he hasn't played in years - how could he help?" Also, would silence the yoyo's who think he doesn't want to play but just wants a payout.
 

axx

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His kneeling had a real impact and spurred a lot of discussion on a worthy topic. Should he try to keep that discussion alive by trying to play in the AAF? It'd be a hell of a pay cut, but he could afford it now and it might be worth the injury risk to continue the messaging. Also, if he plays well, it puts additional pressure on NFL to bring him in. Right now, they can default to "he hasn't played in years - how could he help?" Also, would silence the yoyo's who think he doesn't want to play but just wants a payout.
Actually there was talk this morning about someone from an AAF club reached out and Kaep kind of blew them off. I am guessing that as part of the agreement that Kaep agreed to retire and basically go away in general. Given how rough football is I doubt he's anywhere near playing shape.

There might have been an angle by the League that Kaep wanted to start (and more importantly wanted starter's money) but he would have to have taken a backup job.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Amazing day for America. Especially those fighting the good fight against 45 and social injustice. Hopefully Kaepernick gives a lot of his money to these causes that he championed. Now that this is finally over I'm hoping some team gives him the contract and the starting job that he rightfully deserves.
 

BaseballJones

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Amazing day for America. Especially those fighting the good fight against 45 and social injustice. Hopefully Kaepernick gives a lot of his money to these causes that he championed. Now that this is finally over I'm hoping some team gives him the contract and the starting job that he rightfully deserves.
Why does he "deserve" a starting job in the NFL?
 

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MDLzera
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Have you seen the bottom third of QBs in the league? Nevermind the backups?

I'm not saying Kaepernick would easily waltz into being his 2012 self again, but he's a far better bet to be useful than, say, Mark Sanchez.
 

BaseballJones

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Have you seen the bottom third of QBs in the league? Nevermind the backups?

I'm not saying Kaepernick would easily waltz into being his 2012 self again, but he's a far better bet to be useful than, say, Mark Sanchez.
I totally agree that he's more than qualified to be an NFL backup. But a starter? I grant the possibility, but DeJesus asserts it as if it's objective fact. His 2012 self was...7 years ago (by the time 2019 starts). His career passer rating is 88.9, which would put him 27th in the NFL this year, with the only guys behind him being guys with a track record of success (Alex Smith and Joe Flacco), a guy who very recently had a good year (Case Keenum), three rookies with promise (Darnold, Allen, and Rosen), and of course, the immortal Blake Bortles, who, while he kind of stinks, did manage to get to the AFC Championship game last year.

So maybe Kaepernick could start in the NFL in 2019. Maybe. But to assert it as if it's objective and obviously the case seems to me to be quite the stretch.
 

Kliq

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I totally agree that he's more than qualified to be an NFL backup. But a starter? I grant the possibility, but DeJesus asserts it as if it's objective fact. His 2012 self was...7 years ago (by the time 2019 starts). His career passer rating is 88.9, which would put him 27th in the NFL this year, with the only guys behind him being guys with a track record of success (Alex Smith and Joe Flacco), a guy who very recently had a good year (Case Keenum), three rookies with promise (Darnold, Allen, and Rosen), and of course, the immortal Blake Bortles, who, while he kind of stinks, did manage to get to the AFC Championship game last year.

So maybe Kaepernick could start in the NFL in 2019. Maybe. But to assert it as if it's objective and obviously the case seems to me to be quite the stretch.
It should be noted that it’s Tyrone Biggums and not beloved forum member Dejesus Built My Hotrod.
 

JayMags71

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Gag orders on things like this are contrary to public interest. They should be obligated to tell us all the terrible shit that was said and done about him and players like him, even if they never suffer legal consequences about it. They should be unenforceable as a matter of public policy.
I agree with you, but that raises the question what would such a law look like? How do you determine what’s “in the public interest”?
 

jose melendez

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I’m actually kind of dissapointed in him. I thought he was suing to shine a light. Maybe he thought he could do more good with the money, but I think having this public would have done some real good.
 

Spelunker

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I totally agree that he's more than qualified to be an NFL backup. But a starter? I grant the possibility, but DeJesus asserts it as if it's objective fact. His 2012 self was...7 years ago (by the time 2019 starts). His career passer rating is 88.9, which would put him 27th in the NFL this year, with the only guys behind him being guys with a track record of success (Alex Smith and Joe Flacco), a guy who very recently had a good year (Case Keenum), three rookies with promise (Darnold, Allen, and Rosen), and of course, the immortal Blake Bortles, who, while he kind of stinks, did manage to get to the AFC Championship game last year.

So maybe Kaepernick could start in the NFL in 2019. Maybe. But to assert it as if it's objective and obviously the case seems to me to be quite the stretch.
The blacklisting of him didn't start in 2019.
 

DourDoerr

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Actually there was talk this morning about someone from an AAF club reached out and Kaep kind of blew them off. I am guessing that as part of the agreement that Kaep agreed to retire and basically go away in general. Given how rough football is I doubt he's anywhere near playing shape.

There might have been an angle by the League that Kaep wanted to start (and more importantly wanted starter's money) but he would have to have taken a backup job.
Well, then that sounds like it's the NFL or bust. Not that I'd blame him as the NFL facilities must be like Disneyland for athletes, but he's going to disappear fast if he doesn't play. Maybe he has a 2nd act that doesn't involve football and just wants to get on with it.
 

nattysez

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Bob McNair remained in good standing with the NFL after calling the players on his team "inmates." Roger Goodell suspended one of the biggest stars in the league for something that had at best questionable impact on the game (if Brady did it at all). The NFL's record with regard to hiring GMs and coaches of color shocks the conscience. The idea that exposing the NFL owners as a bunch of rich, racist assholes would change anything is belied by all evidence.

However, taking $60m of their money and using a significant portion of it to uplift your community -- that's all but guaranteed to cause some meaningful change.
 
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singaporesoxfan

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I’m actually kind of dissapointed in him. I thought he was suing to shine a light. Maybe he thought he could do more good with the money, but I think having this public would have done some real good.
No he was kneeling to shine a light. He was suing for the lost wages he deserved for being blackballed. As @nattysez said, what would confirming that there was collusion and that racism might have played a role in it actually have achieved? Sunlight may be the best disinfectant, but it doesn’t mean everything can be disinfected.
 

pappymojo

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Bob McNair remained in good standing with the NFL after calling the players on his team "inmates." Roger Goodell suspended one of the biggest stars in the league for something that had at best questionable impact on the game (if Brady did it at all). The NFL's record with regard to hiring GMs and coaches of color shocks the conscience. The idea that exposing the NFL owners as a bunch of rich, racist assholes would change anything is belied by all evidence.

However, taking $60m of their money and using a significant portion of it to uplift your community -- that's all but guaranteed to cause some meaningful change.
I kind of buy that McNair was talking about Troy Vincent and NFL staff with that comment and not the players.
 

DanoooME

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His kneeling had a real impact and spurred a lot of discussion on a worthy topic. Should he try to keep that discussion alive by trying to play in the AAF? It'd be a hell of a pay cut, but he could afford it now and it might be worth the injury risk to continue the messaging. Also, if he plays well, it puts additional pressure on NFL to bring him in. Right now, they can default to "he hasn't played in years - how could he help?" Also, would silence the yoyo's who think he doesn't want to play but just wants a payout.
Given that the AAF is trying to establish itself as a feeder league, if the NFL won't sign him, he won't go there.

The XFL might be a possibility if Vince McMahon isn't still up Trump's ass. But I'd doubt it given his wife is a Trump appointee. It would generate a lot of interest for the league if he did though. And a lot of times money talks for Vince.
 

johnmd20

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I’m actually kind of dissapointed in him. I thought he was suing to shine a light. Maybe he thought he could do more good with the money, but I think having this public would have done some real good.
This is such an unfair take.
 

reggiecleveland

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This is such an unfair take.
No kidding. He made it the NFL and was as good as he was because he loved to play and competition burned inside him. He not only lost money, but the chance to do what he loved. The fact they paid anything shows the NFL, nondisclosure or not, is admitting wrongdoing.
 

Spelunker

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I never suggested it did. 2019 is the next season he could play. Three full years removed from his previous season in the league (2016).
The point was that the calculation of damages wouldn't be based just on his QB standing for this upcoming season: it's based on the time he missed.

I agree that he wouldn't necessarily be able to come back and start now.
 

axx

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I doubt he is in football shape but if he was serious about playing another position (now that he got paid) the Patriots would make sense in a vacuum.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Belichick’s favorite restaurant plays the anthem every noon. But I have no idea what he thinks about social justice issues. They seem like they would be strange bedfellows, but BB probably would view it solely as a football decision.

Add me to the list that doesn’t agree with Jose’s thought. Kaep has walked the walk when it comes to having principles. The dollars wont make him whole for the price he paid for his principles.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Belichick’s favorite restaurant plays the anthem every noon. But I have no idea what he thinks about social justice issues. They seem like they would be strange bedfellows, but BB probably would view it solely as a football decision.

Add me to the list that doesn’t agree with Jose’s thought. Keep has walked the walk when it comes to having principles. The dollars wont make him whole for the price he paid for his principles.
One thought that occurs to me is that maybe coming back to the NFL was part of his deal. And maybe Kraft is stepping up to do the league a solid.
Have you seen the bottom third of QBs in the league? Nevermind the backups?

I'm not saying Kaepernick would easily waltz into being his 2012 self again, but he's a far better bet to be useful than, say, Mark Sanchez.
I think it’s noteworthy that if you rank active QBs with over 1500 attempts by career passer rating, CK would be #12.
Another way Kaepernick stands out statistically is this:

NFL career leaders in passer interception percentage
1. Aaron Rodgers, 2005-2018: 1.5%
2T. Tom Brady, 2000-2018: 1.8%
2T. Colin Kaepernick, 2011-2016: 1.8%
 

Mystic Merlin

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I would personally enjoy the exasperated outrage that would emanate from some corners of the fan base, and even other teams’ fan bases, if Kaepernick was on the Pats’ depth chart.

Anyways, if Bill and Caserio think he can offer something then Kraft won’t stand in their way. Carrying three QB is a bit tough, but they’ve done it before.
 

cornwalls@6

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Despite some earlier false start reporting to the contrary, it appears CK did not agree to a permanent separation clause, and is free to continue to pursue a job in the NFL. Echoing others above, I'd love to see him land in New England. He'd be an immediate upgrade over Hoyer, and I would love to see Kraft and BB make the FU statement to the league, and Trump. And it would be a good, and just thing to do. I don't think this organization would have any trouble managing whatever short/medium term "distraction" that would come along with signing him.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/02/16/geragos-kaepernick-absolutely-wants-to-play/
 

kenneycb

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Brian Hoyer has been in the NFL for the last two years. In the rooms, training, learning etc. Kaep has not but, as a back end QB in the league who got benched for Gabbert, he has somehow gotten significantly better over that time period without playing a down. People are delusional over his current abilities.
 

InstaFace

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Kap's abilities require a certain offensive system to maximize the value you get out of him. The Patriots do not run that system. The Patriots' system requires a lot of experience with it to run it well; Kap does not have any of that experience. Has never even run Erhardt-Perkins. I actually think Hoyer is a better fit for the Patriots today, as a backup.

If however god forbid Brady's arm or knee gets turned to hamburger, I wouldn't rule out them re-tooling the way they do things to take advantage of an under-priced asset in the market.
 

BaseballJones

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The point was that the calculation of damages wouldn't be based just on his QB standing for this upcoming season: it's based on the time he missed.

I agree that he wouldn't necessarily be able to come back and start now.
Yeah we're talking about two different things then. I'm not talking about the legal stuff or financial damages. I'm talking about a team signing him to start (or play) for them in 2019.
 

Super Nomario

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Brian Hoyer has been in the NFL for the last two years. In the rooms, training, learning etc. Kaep has not but, as a back end QB in the league who got benched for Gabbert, he has somehow gotten significantly better over that time period without playing a down. People are delusional over his current abilities.
And then Gabbert got benched for Kaepernick, who started the final 11 games that year. And Gabbert is still in the league, still starting games.

Some of the fixation on 2012 Kaepernick or his TD / INT ratio in 2016 (when the rest of his numbers were awful) is misguided, but he was still a top, I dunno, 25-45 QB when we last saw him, with the potential to be more in a better environment (let's be real: those Niners were an absolute organizational tire fire). The Pats wouldn't be signing him to start. They might not even be signing him to back up. But Brady's not going to play forever, Hoyer isn't a long-term answer, and we've seen teams turn "extra" QBs into assets in the preseason (like NYJ did with Bridgewater last year). I'm skeptical they can find a financial compromise that reflects his uncertainty to make the Patriots and his upside to be a starter elsewhere, however.
 

HomeRunBaker

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His kneeling had a real impact and spurred a lot of discussion on a worthy topic. Should he try to keep that discussion alive by trying to play in the AAF? It'd be a hell of a pay cut, but he could afford it now and it might be worth the injury risk to continue the messaging. Also, if he plays well, it puts additional pressure on NFL to bring him in. Right now, they can default to "he hasn't played in years - how could he help?" Also, would silence the yoyo's who think he doesn't want to play but just wants a payout.
There is no reason to play in the AAF when he'll be signed by an NFL team within a matter of months or maybe even weeks. The team that keeps coming up is Carolina which is where Reid landed. It pains me to read the ignorant social media posts about Kaep not believing in his cause by settling......freakin idiots. This lawsuit has ZERO to do with the cause and all to do with the NFL owners colluding to keep him out of the league which any reasonable person could recognize occurred. This country is filled with way too many people who don't fall under that "reasonable" tag....but I digress...….by settling now it also opens the door for Kaep to be signed by a team asap to go through their offseason program and a full camp. Had this went to trial that would never have occurred this year and he'd be missing 3 seasons instead of 2.

Brian Hoyer has been in the NFL for the last two years. In the rooms, training, learning etc. Kaep has not but, as a back end QB in the league who got benched for Gabbert, he has somehow gotten significantly better over that time period without playing a down. People are delusional over his current abilities.
This is more garbage that continues to be repeated. Kaep wasn't "benched for Gabbert"...….he was playing injured then was shutdown/replaced for the purpose of having shoulder surgery. Gabbert also didn't "beat out Kaep" in training camp the following year as Kaep was recovering from said surgery and not yet cleared to play. Once Kaep was cleared to play he took over as the QB and had a relatively good year under the dire circumstances of playing on such an awful team. Even his decision making seemed to improve with a 17/4 TD/INT ratio after he returned from the injury.

Nobody is claiming that Kaep is the second coming but he clearly was a starting NFL caliber QB when he was blackballed and the settlement number that the NFL agreed upon reflects the FA contracts that similar level QB's signed prior to damages being tacked on. The more I think about it the more that Carolina makes so much sense for him and his career.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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Some of the fixation on 2012 Kaepernick or his TD / INT ratio in 2016 (when the rest of his numbers were awful) is misguided, but he was still a top, I dunno, 25-45 QB when we last saw him, with the potential to be more in a better environment (let's be real: those Niners were an absolute organizational tire fire).
As long as we are thinking about Hoyer and how Kaepernick might fit on the Pats, a couple of other data points:

  • With the Niners, Kaepernick was better in his 11 starts in 2016 than Hoyer was in his 6 starts the following year. Kaepernick was also better than his competition (Gabbert) while Hoyer was about equal to one other guy who played with the Niners (Beathard) and worse than the other (Garoppolo)
  • I don't think there is any arguing the general idea that Hoyer is a better fit in the Pats' system, but that only goes so far. The gap between Hoyer and Kaepernick, while there, is likely far narrower than the gap between Garoppolo and rookie Jacoby Brissett, but they managed, even as Brissett played with an injured thumb that would land him on IR.
The Pats wouldn't be signing him to start. They might not even be signing him to back up. But Brady's not going to play forever, Hoyer isn't a long-term answer, and we've seen teams turn "extra" QBs into assets in the preseason (like NYJ did with Bridgewater last year). I'm skeptical they can find a financial compromise that reflects his uncertainty to make the Patriots and his upside to be a starter elsewhere, however.
On the financial side, I wouldn't be shocked if that is somewhat covered in Kaepernick's settlement with the NFL. Time out of the game will be an issue for him no matter where he goes.

I don't really expect him to sign with NE, but unless the Pats invest a high draft pick in a QB of the future type, I'd be thrilled to have him on board as a #3.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't really expect him to sign with NE, but unless the Pats invest a high draft pick in a QB of the future type, I'd be thrilled to have him on board as a #3.
I was surprised to see NE's name come up since BB has traditionally had pocket type backups to Brady over the years to best fit the current system should he be forced to get snaps. Cassel, Mallett, Jimmy G, Huard, and Hoyer. I'm guessing he wants to sign in a place where he has the best chance to get some game action prior to hitting the FA market for a starting gig the following spring. The obvious match with Carolina is Reid and also Newton's health which may give him some opportunities. One thing this settlement certainly does is eliminate the Kesslers, Driskels, and Petermans of the world to have jobs which he doesn't receive an offer again.

Some of the fixation on 2012 Kaepernick or his TD / INT ratio in 2016 (when the rest of his numbers were awful) is misguided
You have to account for how awful his offensive personnel was that season though too. Jeremy Kerley was forced to be targeted 115x that season......he's been targeted 31x the last two years combined elsewhere.
 
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Van Everyman

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I kind of buy that McNair was talking about Troy Vincent and NFL staff with that comment and not the players.
Not that I have any problem with him and the owners being killed over that statement, but I think I agree.

As for CK on the Pats, I wouldn't be surprised or shocked either -- yes he hasn't played since 2016 but he was very good that year. But I wouldn't dump Hoyer for him -- as he showed in the run up to the SB, he's valuable to the planning process and having played on a number of squads over the years clearly can bring an institutional knowledge of offensive systems to the table.
 

kenneycb

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There is no reason to play in the AAF when he'll be signed by an NFL team within a matter of months or maybe even weeks. The team that keeps coming up is Carolina which is where Reid landed. It pains me to read the ignorant social media posts about Kaep not believing in his cause by settling......freakin idiots. This lawsuit has ZERO to do with the cause and all to do with the NFL owners colluding to keep him out of the league which any reasonable person could recognize occurred. This country is filled with way too many people who don't fall under that "reasonable" tag....but I digress...….by settling now it also opens the door for Kaep to be signed by a team asap to go through their offseason program and a full camp. Had this went to trial that would never have occurred this year and he'd be missing 3 seasons instead of 2.


This is more garbage that continues to be repeated. Kaep wasn't "benched for Gabbert"...….he was playing injured then was shutdown/replaced for the purpose of having shoulder surgery. Gabbert also didn't "beat out Kaep" in training camp the following year as Kaep was recovering from said surgery and not yet cleared to play. Once Kaep was cleared to play he took over as the QB and had a relatively good year under the dire circumstances of playing on such an awful team. Even his decision making seemed to improve with a 17/4 TD/INT ratio after he returned from the injury.

Nobody is claiming that Kaep is the second coming but he clearly was a starting NFL caliber QB when he was blackballed and the settlement number that the NFL agreed upon reflects the FA contracts that similar level QB's signed prior to damages being tacked on. The more I think about it the more that Carolina makes so much sense for him and his career.
Kaep was cleared to play in 2016 and dressed in the five games Gabbert started. He never showed up on the injury report any week in 2016 and lost the camp competition to Gabbert largely because Gabbert had a decent end of 2015 and Kaep missed two weeks in August with arm fatigue.

I never claimed anyone is saying that he is a second coming. I don’t believe, however, he’s automatically better than Brian Hoyer given he hasn’t stepped in an NFL facility or practiced against NFL competition for two years. Which counts for something.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Kaep was cleared to play in 2016 and dressed in the five games Gabbert started. He never showed up on the injury report any week in 2016 and lost the camp competition to Gabbert largely because Gabbert had a decent end of 2015 and Kaep missed two weeks in August with arm fatigue.
Again, this isn't what actually happened. Kaep missed all of spring and summer team workouts. He was cleared for individual work as training camp began and wasn't ready at the start of preseason games.....Chip Kelly acknowledged that Kaep wasn't at 100% so he wasn't going to play in these games until he was. The team wasn't going anywhere so it didn't make sense to rush back an injured QB until he was healthy. This was all documented at the time.

I never claimed anyone is saying that he is a second coming. I don’t believe, however, he’s automatically better than Brian Hoyer given he hasn’t stepped in an NFL facility or practiced against NFL competition for two years. Which counts for something.
Hoyer is pretty bad but not "that" bad in McDaniels offense where he certainly would be a better "fit" than Kaep but he was REALLY terrible for SF in 2017 after Kaep was the far better QB with the same flawed personnel a year earlier.
 

Super Nomario

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On the financial side, I wouldn't be shocked if that is somewhat covered in Kaepernick's settlement with the NFL. Time out of the game will be an issue for him no matter where he goes.

I don't really expect him to sign with NE, but unless the Pats invest a high draft pick in a QB of the future type, I'd be thrilled to have him on board as a #3.
I just think it's a hard needle to thread financially. The Pats aren't going to want to pay Kaepernick $5 MM (which is what Bridgewater got) to be the #3, and Kaepernick isn't going to want to play for the veteran minimum (which is more than Danny Etling will make). The fairest thing would be having a low salary and guarantees and a healthy roster bonus that would compensate Kaep more the more he plays, but that provides a financial disincentive to playing him more, which isn't conducive to carving out a role as a starter. He makes more sense in a place that has more cap room and / or gives a clearer path to playing time.

I was surprised to see NE's name come up since BB has traditionally had pocket type backups to Brady over the years to best fit the current system should he be forced to get snaps. Cassel, Mallett, Jimmy G, Huard, and Hoyer.
Belichick has flirted with mobile guys a little bit. There was Flutie, Tebow, Kevin O'Connell (who ran a 4.61), and he carried Michael Bishop for a year even though he didn't draft him. Garoppolo and Cassel were both West-Coast-type mobile; they weren't going to run 40-yards but you could do all the rollouts and bootlegs with them. Brissett was sort of early-career Big-Ben-y in his ability to make plays with his legs / outside of structure without being fast. The way Belichick defends mobile QBs, it's pretty clear he's aware of the unique challenges they pose to a defense.

You have to account for how awful his offensive personnel was that season though too. Jeremy Kerley was forced to be targeted 115x that season......he's been targeted 31x the last two years combined elsewhere.
Agreed ... that's what I was getting at with the "potential to be more in a better environment" note. In hindsight, Kaepernick was probably not as good as he looked in 2012-2013 surrounded by an excellent supporting cast, but also not as bad as he looked in 2015-2016 surrounded by crap. It is amazing how quickly that franchise slid downhill. One reason I will never take Robert Kraft for granted.