The new net behind the plate

Harry Hooper

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So, if someone wants to pull out stats on how often someone is hit by a foul ball, is it good form to pull out a "fires in baseball stadium" stat now?
MANY more sports fans have been injured or killed by being crushed up against barriers around playing fields that by objects leaving those fields and entering the stands. It would be good if the new net had a "breakaway" design so that it would yield to a push of several humans.
 
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The Talented Allen Ripley

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The issue with crushes, particularly Hillsborough, is that it wasn't just a net acting as a barrier between the crowd and the field, but that there were literal pens separating sections of the stands from one another. To say nothing of how the barriers were constructed, being a lot less forgiving than netting. And the fact that Fenway isn't general admission.

Nobody's going to get crushed at Fenway. Yeesh.
 

Harry Hooper

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It's not just Hillsborough. Crowds will stampede in a panic over stuff as minor as a funky smell. I almost got crushed in the joyous mob greeting the Celtics at Logan after they won a title in the 80's. There was a fire in I believe the old Cleveland Stadium or Comiskey during a Sox game there years ago and fans spilled onto the field to get away from it.
 
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Buffalo Head

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Was that Logan Stadium? And how does extending netting a handful of sections change the calculus? Are you saying the fans behind the plate for the past zillion years are lucky to be alive? Do you understand the point Rip is making? The seating bowl at Fenway -- and all other ballparks -- are open to egress left and right, precluding a crush. Did you even think before you posted this silliness? Isn't there a Japan earthquake update you can focus on?
 

DJnVa

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MANY more sports fans have been injured or killed by being crushed up against barriers around playing fields that by objects leaving those fields and entering the stands. It would be good if the new net had a "breakaway" design so that it would yield to a push of several humans.
So fix every possible thing or fix nothing.
 

alwyn96

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I think people tend to overestimate the ability of a person to dodge a foul ball when they are A) seated B) not a professional athlete C) not 100% alert after having maybe a beer or two D) maybe super old or young. The fact that professional athletes, who are at the very level of human fitness and concentration, and who are highly selected to possess some of the fastest reaction times on earth, are often unable to escape being struck by a batted or thrown ball despite not being seated, mildly inebriated, elderly, or packed tightly with thousands of other people, makes me think that we give the average fan too much credit for being able to protect themselves, even at full attention. Hell, even the players themselves only have to pay attention 50% of the time.
 

SydneySox

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This thread is full of an appalling amount of false equivalence; hotdogs, fires, escalators. It shouldn't need to be explained to some of the idiots in this this thread why the 'hot dogs are dangerous we should ban hot dogs and also muslims and children' arguments undermine any of the actual logical reasons people can argue against the introduction of nets. But here goes.

Saying you don't like something because a completely different something represents a completely different outcome is a fallacy; if you're doing it on purpose you're an idiot. If you're doing it by mistake you need to further explain some basic things like, for instance, why hot dogs and netting can't both be made more safe. Or, why you think hot dogs have never been made safe and therefore spectator safety shouldn't be made safe either. Or, why escalators need more safety or not and why that is in any way applicable to netting on the field.

There are real, emotional arguments to be made about netting at Fenway; my then-two year old may or may not have had the experience of a young lifetime last year sitting on the fence pre-game near the Sox dugout and getting a high five from Papi. Losing a chance for that memory or other parents to have that memory is sad. And when I weigh that up it's probably about 2 per cent of the level of importance in my overall decision making on why I think the nets, if they help save one life or stop one injury, are already a win. Either way, that's an emotional personal decision. Not one based on awful logical idiocy.
 

Jettisoned

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People have forgotten how to evaluate and mitigate risk. I won't sit in those high risk seats with my wife or daughter because I know they won't keep a eye on the game constantly enough.
This doesn't make any sense. The nets mitigate the risk of fans being injured or killed by foul balls or bats. Your reluctance to let your loved ones sit in those seats is exactly why MLB has decided to put nets in front of them.


"America's biggest problem" as you put it, is not empathy, it's a lack of personal responsibility. Our cars have automatic braking systems because we can't keep our eyes in the road, and our children have leashes because we can't hold their hands.

But please continue with your spiteful, holier than thou drivel.
You ought to think about why improving car safety makes you so upset.
 

staz

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The cradle of the game.
You ought to think about why improving car safety makes you so upset.
Of the literally thousands of ways engineers could improve car safety, they chose to develop a system that prevents people
from colliding with objects directly in front of their faces. Because apparently, too many of us are colliding with objects directly in front of our faces. You ought to think about that.
 

OCST

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Of the literally thousands of ways engineers could improve car safety, they chose to develop a system that prevents people
from colliding with objects directly in front of their faces. Because apparently, too many of us are colliding with objects directly in front of our faces. You ought to think about that.
So engineers passed up thousands of other ways to improve car safety, just to focus on the one that unfortunately fails to punish dumb people for being dumb, because nanny state and get of staz' lawn?
 

SydneySox

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Staz, do you hate 'Engineers' or the people who don't understand that of they don't want to die at baseball they just shouldn't go to baseball more?
 

staz

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So engineers passed up thousands of other ways to improve car safety, just to focus on the one that unfortunately fails to punish dumb people for being dumb, because nanny state and get of staz' lawn?
No, Emergency Brake Assist is a response to the rising prevalence of distracted driving. This same lack of personal responsibility at the ballpark is the reason the Fenway's best seats are now shrouded by nets. It's really not that difficult to understand.
 

joe dokes

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No, Emergency Brake Assist is a response to the rising prevalence of distracted driving. This same lack of personal responsibility at the ballpark is the reason the Fenway's best seats are now shrouded by nets. It's really not that difficult to understand.

Do we know if the woman skulled by the bat at Fenway was engaging in lack of personal responsibility?

I thought that the brake assist feature applied maximum pressure faster than humans can? How is that a response to a lack of personal responsibility?

"Fenway's best seats are now shrouded by nets." Not exactly.
 

OCST

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No, Emergency Brake Assist is a response to the rising prevalence of distracted driving. This same lack of personal responsibility at the ballpark is the reason the Fenway's best seats are now shrouded by nets. It's really not that difficult to understand.
The idea of the Rugged Individualist 'Murican building the cabin he was born in with his own hands, boldly facing all danger with his Dan'l Boone bowie knife in his teeth, and shrugging aside slings and arrows with his Captin 'Murica shield is very easy to understand, I agree.

It's also dumb.

BTW, "rising prevalence of distracted driving?" Can you show your work?
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

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I have no experience sitting behind the net at Fenway, but I did sit behind the net in the lower level Monster Seats at JetBlue. You notice the netting for about 10 minutes and then your eyes adjust. As long as you show up before the first pitch, it's not an issue, at least for me. Fan safety is more important than your 10 minutes of sight line issues.
 

EastCoasterOutWest

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I've sat behind nets at games many times. It's a non-issue.

No, Emergency Brake Assist is a response to the rising prevalence of distracted driving. This same lack of personal responsibility at the ballpark is the reason the Fenway's best seats are now shrouded by nets. It's really not that difficult to understand.
FFS, shrouded? You mean, by definition: cover or envelop so as to conceal from view Yeah, they put up an opaque sheet all around home plate.

How many games have you not seen because you were sitting behind that net at Fenway so far? How about you go see one first before you decide that the sanctity of watching a game has been ruined by all those assholes sitting around you being irresponsible.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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The analogy with the car is closer to the scenario where you order a sports car from the dealership and when you show up to pick it up and they have replaced the car with a safer sedan without telling you.
 

RIFan

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No, Emergency Brake Assist is a response to the rising prevalence of distracted driving. This same lack of personal responsibility at the ballpark is the reason the Fenway's best seats are now shrouded by nets. It's really not that difficult to understand.
Except, there is also someone being victimized by the distracted driver. In your argument, the victim bears a level of responsibility for being in the way of the distracted driver. I guess the engineering solution is for the car to shoot a dart into the driver whenever the EBA is forced to engage. That way they assume a consequence for their lack of personal responsibility while sparing a victim.
 

Jettisoned

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No, Emergency Brake Assist is a response to the rising prevalence of distracted driving. This same lack of personal responsibility at the ballpark is the reason the Fenway's best seats are now shrouded by nets. It's really not that difficult to understand.
Do we actually know for sure that distracted driving is a new and serious problem? There certainly hasn't been an increase in the rate of traffic deaths since the introduction of cell phones, or even smart phones for that matter. Automobile manufacturers add safety features to cars not as a response to increasing levels of irresponsibility, but because operating heavy steel objects moving at high speeds is inherently dangerous.

No one is having difficulty understanding your argument. People are disagreeing with you because your argument doesn't make any sense.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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I've sat behind nets at games many times. It's a non-issue.
You mean for you, personally. Because I've sat behind the plate several times and I can't stand it. The net distracts me the whole time. So much so that I wouldn't even take free tickets in row 1 behind home.
 

Moviegoer

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Can I have them? I've only sat behind the net a couple of times, mostly during rain soaked late innings when everyone else had left. I honestly can't remember even noticing it at all.
 

DJnVa

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A loser who doesn't see well through nets, thank you very much
Then why'd you do it more than once? It sounds like a horrible horrible experience.


Can I have them? I've only sat behind the net a couple of times, mostly during rain soaked late
innings when everyone else had left. I honestly can't remember even noticing it at all.
Welcome back Kilgore!
 

joe dokes

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I didn't like my couple of experiences behind the plate because every non-ground ball looked like a home run off the bat. It was like some sort of Trup-ian hell. A game where both pitchers strike out 25 could be good from there, though. The net wasn't an issue.
 

joe dokes

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Alcohol&Overcalls

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The net is cheap and nearly 100% effective, and that exceptionally low cost would be Exhibit 1 in a lawsuit against the team should, say, a 9 year old take one to the face and die. The potential liability is a real, tangible cost to the operations budget of the team. Saying "but it would affect our fans' ability to reach onto the field and harass the players pregame!" is going to be an ineffective defense. The math is incredibly easy here - we each pay nickels in an obstruction we won't even notice after half an inning to prevent a larger liability disaster that's more or less just waiting to happen.

So yeah - pine for the good ol' days of personal responsibility in leisure choices if you want, but realize you're asking the team to intentionally hamstring itself when you're doing so. We applaud alternative revenue streams for the team all the damn time - it's what lets it keep a $20mm bench. This is just another in that line, and that's ok. In fact, doing anything else would probably be wrong.
 

OCST

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FWIW, haven't taken Lil OCST to Fenway yet, but have been to a few minor-league games. Have always sat behind the net by choice to eliminate the chance of a line drive hitting her (and because it means shelling out $14 instead of $10).
 

MuzzyField

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I didn't realize this was going to turn into an abortion-level good-vs-evil debate. Everyone appears to be dug in deep.
I'm pretty sure each team has been paying liability insurance for decades to deal with fan injuries from foul balls. What's the current count on MLB foul ball deaths?.
It's not like the bottom line of any franchise is on the line here.
I'm not rooting for foul ball deaths. We each analyze and assume risk every day.
If the screen view was so awesome, why do so many players fold a towel and stick their faces above the dugout railing?
My main point in my 'idiotic' contribution here is the top 100 list of safety improvements in the world, including many at sports facilities, don't include this.
Thanks to aluminum bats (thank goodness they dialed down the tech), I'd be more concerned that a fan at a college or high school game would be seriously injured by a screaming line drive.
In spite of the increased netting, the risk remains.
This whole initiative is just another step in the evolution of sports venues becoming entertainment destinations. The game is a secondary activity.
PGA Tour events, including the one I go to in Ponte Vedra, are nothing more than a party enveloping a golf course.
Hell, the NFL team here opted for pools and bars to mask the inept on-field product and increase revenue.
The new season is about to begin and I want everyone to enjoy it and be safe with or without nets.
 

Buffalo Head

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Why do you assume the only concern is about foul balls? The woman at Fenway wasn't hit with a foul ball. Players, especially infielders, have been voicing concern about broken maple bats for years now. You can sit it your seat with your head and eyes forced to look at the game like Clockwork Orange and still get pretty seriously injured by a broken shard of bat flying at you at an odd angle. I think that woman getting impaled was a huge wake-up call for MLB that its only a matter of time until someone takes a shard of bat in the jugular and the nets serve to deter that as well.
 

MuzzyField

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I don't, I agree with you, and I'm in favor of eliminating maple bats.
The live baseball experience that made me fall in love with the game is being reduced.
I'm seeing the end game of this being nets from foul pole to foul pole and 'fans' watching their 8k iPads to see the game. Without nets.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I'm a little surprised that no one's been hurt or concussed in one of those court side seats in the NBA.

I think hockey was the king of hurt before screens. Car Racing has a bad history (made even worse because so many go for the crashes). Soccer manages to kill a shitload of people (albeit not with soccer balls). Tennis, golf, volleyball, badminton and football are pretty benign.

There's certainly an argument that baseball is dangerous. I'm curious what the criteria was for height and extent of the screen. Seems arbitrary.
 

MuzzyField

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I'm a little surprised that no one's been hurt or concussed in one of those court side seats in the NBA.

I think hockey was the king of hurt before screens. Car Racing has a bad history (made even worse because so many go for the crashes). Soccer manages to kill a shitload of people (albeit not with soccer balls). Tennis, golf, volleyball, badminton and football are pretty benign.

There's certainly an argument that baseball is dangerous. I'm curious what the criteria was for height and extent of the screen. Seems arbitrary.
I watched Shaq crush a few people during his Magic days, and the NBA seats are even closer now. He was a 300-pound flying wall of pain.
 

YTF

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Why do you assume the only concern is about foul balls? The woman at Fenway wasn't hit with a foul ball. Players, especially infielders, have been voicing concern about broken maple bats for years now. You can sit it your seat with your head and eyes forced to look at the game like Clockwork Orange and still get pretty seriously injured by a broken shard of bat flying at you at an odd angle. I think that woman getting impaled was a huge wake-up call for MLB that its only a matter of time until someone takes a shard of bat in the jugular and the nets serve to deter that as well.
This one was, right between the eyes about 5 weeks after the woman who was hit by the broken bat. She says she saw the ball coming and couldn't react. Her SIL is a coworker of mine and recounted the story to me last summer, confirming the same. I look at that photo and marvel at the fact that she is still alive.

http://wgntv.com/2015/07/12/woman-hit-by-a-foul-ball-at-fenway-park/
 

EastCoasterOutWest

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I don't, I agree with you, and I'm in favor of eliminating maple bats.
The live baseball experience that made me fall in love with the game is being reduced.
I'm seeing the end game of this being nets from foul pole to foul pole and 'fans' watching their 8k iPads to see the game. Without nets.
What? They're not playing baseball anymore at baseball games?

If nets impeding your view of the game from up close reduces the 'live baseball experience' for you, is it reduced when you sit in the bleachers or nosebleeds?

If the screen view was so awesome, why do so many players fold a towel and stick their faces above the dugout railing?
You fail to recognize why the screen is part of the dugout in the first place, but this is perhaps one of the most ridiculous arguments in this thread that has nothing to do with anything involved in the reasoning behind having either net.

I also love the emphasis on fans you use to imply that real fans don't want nets. Bravo.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Paywall - can you highlight what they said?





Actually, they said they've offered season ticket holders the chance to preview the net and nearly 40 have taken advantage of this chance, and a few have asked to be reseated, pending how it looks during a game. There seem to be seats past the dugouts available for these folks.

Some anecdotal info from players and management (Pedroia got hit in the eye by a bad hop in 2002) that don't really apply but do reinforce that getting hit by a ball can hurt.
 

MuzzyField

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Paywall - can you highlight what they said?
I somehow didn't get paywall blocked.
According to the Sox, no ticket cancellations, some fans want to test a few games before potentially moving.
The main fan featured in the article appeared to have front row near the visitors dugout. He's happy, but doesn't care for some of the seams and supports in the screen and a mesh access door.
Players and JF were quoted about keeping fans safe and an 80-year-old usher getting whacked by a Hanley line drive in spring training at Jet Blue was used as an illustration. The usher went to the hospital with a concussion, Hanley's batting gloves, and a Papi bat.
 

SoxinSeattle

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I sat ten rows behind the plate in 1989. I remember not loving the net but it wasn't a deal breaker by any means. Interestingly enough Nick Esasky fouled one straight back through the net (was it/is it metal?) and the ball hit a woman in the head. Looked real bad. Blood everywhere. Let's hope for all the anger the new net is at least effective.