The Nation's Tears: Volume II

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DJnVa

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I would assume the Pats somewhat know the blocking tendencies of the Falcons and had they assumed he'd flare out, someone else would have been tasked to that area.

You know, kinda like that play later where the RB caught the ball and NO ONE WAS WITHIN 20 YARDS OF HIM :)
 

Ed Hillel

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It's not even clear the author is interpreting the OPI rule correctly. Rule 8, Section 5, Article 3(e)(2) of the NFL rulebook notes the following:



This is followed by Article 4, which the author quotes:



The rule book seems contradictory. But it does not seem reasonable for a blocker to suddenly stop blocking 1 yard downfield when the ball is in the air. More likely, the intention of the 2nd note could be to prevent a blocker coming in and taking out a defensive player shadowing the intended receiver while the ball is in the air, even if the receiver is in the backfield (hence the "in the vicinity" quote). But that didn't happen here.
I'm also unclear on how "1 yard downfield" is defined here. Hogan is standing on the 1. If it's enforced like an illegal pass beyond the Line of Scrimmage, he's within a yard. If it's point of contact, he's probably like a foot or two past, since he's reaching forward. I mean whatever. We are in far from egregious hold that could be called 30 times a game territory.
 

Byrdbrain

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I would assume the Pats somewhat know the blocking tendencies of the Falcons and had they assumed he'd flare out, someone else would have been tasked to that area.

You know, kinda like that play later where the RB caught the ball and NO ONE WAS WITHIN 20 YARDS OF HIM :)
Well there was someone tasked to be there, he just fell down. :)

Also on the Hightower strip sack Ryan was looking deep and there was a guy coming wide open that he was going for and almost certainly would have connected with. I assume when the all-22 comes out there will be better views of it available.
 

Al Zarilla

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I don't know if this was even a thought, but Freeman looked wide open after missing the block. If Ryan sees that and dinks a pass over Hightower's head to Freeman, it's off to the races.
Have to look at it again, but once Freeman totally fanned on Hightower (I didn't think it was my job to block him, LOL) High must have looked like a very large storm coming in on Ryan and I don't know if he had a chance to do anything.

Ed, covered by DrewDawg.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Regarding the 3 rushes and kick a FG, don't you think that Quinn remembered what Shea McClellin did earlier in the game (successfully, even though it was called a penalty) and feared that would happen again? I haven't seen anyone bring this up, but he could have blocked that kick and given the Pats great field position (or even returned it for a TD). Quinn and Shanahan might have been trying to avoid that.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Regarding the 3 rushes and kick a FG, don't you think that Quinn remembered what Shea McClellin did earlier in the game (successfully, even though it was called a penalty) and feared that would happen again? I haven't seen anyone bring this up, but he could have blocked that kick and given the Pats great field position (or even returned it for a TD). Quinn and Shanahan might have been trying to avoid that.
Additionally, the Pats had brought significant pressure off their left side on each kick.
 

GregHarris

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To me they are an aggressive high scoring team. They were thinking TD.
Agreed.

And it's the "that's what we do" mentality that has teams losing games like this. Don't do what you do, do what you need to do. They needed to run the ball, or hell, kneel on it and attempt a FG. It's why BB is so much better than everyone else out there. Is there any doubt that he'd run,run,run kick in Quinn's place, or if he did pass it be a quick out or some safe WR screen - at the very least let the clock tick to 1 before hiking it.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah--a variation in the snap count or something. But everyone needs to the on the same page for that.
 

kelpapa

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Yeah--a variation in the snap count or something. But everyone needs to the on the same page for that.
Can't the center just stand up quickly if they know it's coming, or could that mess with the snap?
 

Dollar

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Can't the center just stand up quickly if they know it's coming, or could that mess with the snap?
Much easier said than done when you're trying to make a perfect snap in a high pressure situation. Just ask Brian Kinchen.
 

RetractableRoof

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Much easier said than done when you're trying to make a perfect snap in a high pressure situation. Just ask Brian Kinchen.
But he isn't going over the center - that's the rule they were falsely penalized for. He is leaping through the center/guard gap. Could the guards get a hand up and trip him?
 

DJnVa

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Yes, but aren't they watching the ball? The whole idea is to time it before the guard gets his head up.
 

kelpapa

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Much easier said than done when you're trying to make a perfect snap in a high pressure situation. Just ask Brian Kinchen.
Yea, you're probably right. Priority #1 - and probably the only priority in that situation - is the snap.
 

Hoodie Sleeves

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Is there any doubt that he'd run,run,run kick in Quinn's place, or if he did pass it be a quick out or some safe WR screen - at the very least let the clock tick to 1 before hiking it.
Yes. I've seen plenty of late game situations like this where the Patriots throw the ball. And convert, and run the clock out.

The big difference is that when Brady sees pressure like that, he's going to go down and eat the ball. He's not going to run backwards another 10 yards.


Not exactly the same, but similar - late in a game, with a lead, and a chance to kick the field goal to increase the number of scores the opponent needed (and significantly reduce the opponents available time):


HOU:16, NE:31
  1. 1-10-HOU 24(7:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 33-D.Lewis.
  2. 2-10-HOU 24(7:44) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right [59-W.Mercilus]. thrown away from outside the pocket
  3. 3-10-HOU 24(7:37) (Shotgun) 33-D.Lewis left end to HOU 24 for no gain (21-A.Bouye). FUMBLES (21-A.Bouye), recovered by NE-62-J.Thuney at HOU 24.
  4. 4-10-HOU 24(6:40) 3-S.Gostkowski 43 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-49-J.Cardona, Holder-6-R.Allen.



    And you'll notice that when they did decide to "go safe" and rush, they fumbled.
 

tims4wins

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Flying to Atlanta right now. Overheard someone saying they hate the Patriots Brady cheaters spygate etc. The C word will never die. I just smiled. Delicious, salty tears.
 

Reverend

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Yeah, nit-picking is something for the media and fans to do.

I have a feeling that if anything's keeping Snyder and the rest of the staff up at night, it's blowing a 25 point lead.
 

RedOctober3829

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Caller on Mad Dog: "I'm so sick of Belichick and Brady. I played golf with a HOFer from St. Louis and all he could talk about was that they knew their plays. Brady is lucky he could have lost 5 Super Bowls if it wasn't for idiot coaches."

Tears are tasting so, so sweet.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Caller on Mad Dog: "I'm so sick of Belichick and Brady. I played golf with a HOFer from St. Louis and all he could talk about was that they knew their plays. Brady is lucky he could have lost 5 Super Bowls if it wasn't for idiot coaches."

Tears are tasting so, so sweet.
Marshall Faulk can't even enjoy a round of golf without the salt coming out.
 

dbn

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Who was Ryan throwing to in that play? It looks to me like it was JJ on a drag route, but people keep saying he was going deep.
 

BigSoxFan

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Who was Ryan throwing to in that play? It looks to me like it was JJ on a drag route, but people keep saying he was going deep.
Looked like Aldrick Robinson on a deep post over the middle per Inside the NFL.
 

Byrdbrain

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Who was Ryan throwing to in that play? It looks to me like it was JJ on a drag route, but people keep saying he was going deep.
There isn't a great shot of it but you in one of the shots from behind Ryan you can see #19 just breaking free.
I've heard from a couple of the media people who were there saying that he had just beaten Butler and was wide open. I assume we will get a better look when the all22 comes out.

Edit:BSF is correct #19 is Robinson
 

dbn

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Looked like Aldrick Robinson on a deep post over the middle per Inside the NFL.
There isn't a great shot of it but you in one of the shots from behind Ryan you can see #19 just breaking free.
I've heard from a couple of the media people who were there saying that he had just beaten Butler and was wide open. I assume we will get a better look when the all22 comes out.

Edit:BSF is correct #19 is Robinson
Thanks. There are sooo many plays in this game that are going to be interesting to re-watch in all-22.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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There isn't a great shot of it but you in one of the shots from behind Ryan you can see #19 just breaking free.
I've heard from a couple of the media people who were there saying that he had just beaten Butler and was wide open. I assume we will get a better look when the all22 comes out.

Edit:BSF is correct #19 is Robinson
On the Inside the NFL show they showed the play and highlighted Robinson, and if Ryan had another second he'd have had a TD because Robinson was home free.
 

DJnVa

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HOU:16, NE:31
  1. 1-10-HOU 24(7:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 33-D.Lewis.
  2. 2-10-HOU 24(7:44) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right [59-W.Mercilus]. thrown away from outside the pocket
  3. 3-10-HOU 24(7:37) (Shotgun) 33-D.Lewis left end to HOU 24 for no gain (21-A.Bouye). FUMBLES (21-A.Bouye), recovered by NE-62-J.Thuney at HOU 24.
  4. 4-10-HOU 24(6:40) 3-S.Gostkowski 43 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-49-J.Cardona, Holder-6-R.Allen.

    And you'll notice that when they did decide to "go safe" and rush, they fumbled.
I'm sorry, I don't think this is similar enough to be of any help. In that game it's already 2 scores, which creates a huge margin of error, and there's 7 minutes left. The Super Bowl was to the point where they could have bled off all of NE's TOs and had a FG that Bryant hits 90% of the time, and taken the clock to around 3 minutes.
 

DJnVa

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Truly just asking... no snark. Isn't that the point of the snap count?
Sometimes road teams don't rely on verbal cues, they rely on visual. And, in this case, I think the crowd was mostly NE.

No idea what exactly they'd rely on. And either way, the defender still has to guess right. You switch it from 2 count to 3 count and he's offside.
 

E5 Yaz

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Wasn't sure where to put this one. Someone smarterer than me will have to tell me wtf Blandino is talking about, or why he's bringing it up

Kevin Seifert NFL Nation
NFL SVP of officiating Dean Blandino noted what could have been a major play late in the second quarter of Super Bowl LI. On this play, the Falcons' Vic Beasley Jr. hits Patriots QB Tom Brady as he throws a pass that was caught by TE Martellus Bennett for a 15-yard gain.
Brady's arm had just started moving forward, making it a legal pass. If it had been ruled a fumble, however, the ball would have been moved back by rule to the spot of the fumble. Inside of two minutes, only the player who fumbled can advance the ball.
So the Patriots would have faced third-and-12 at the 23-yard line instead of having a first-and-10 at the 43 with 1:43 left. That would have made it much more difficult for the Patriots to drive for the 41-yard field goal they eventually got out of the drive.
 

rodderick

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Wasn't sure where to put this one. Someone smarterer than me will have to tell me wtf Blandino is talking about, or why he's bringing it up

Kevin Seifert NFL Nation
NFL SVP of officiating Dean Blandino noted what could have been a major play late in the second quarter of Super Bowl LI. On this play, the Falcons' Vic Beasley Jr. hits Patriots QB Tom Brady as he throws a pass that was caught by TE Martellus Bennett for a 15-yard gain.
Brady's arm had just started moving forward, making it a legal pass. If it had been ruled a fumble, however, the ball would have been moved back by rule to the spot of the fumble. Inside of two minutes, only the player who fumbled can advance the ball.
So the Patriots would have faced third-and-12 at the 23-yard line instead of having a first-and-10 at the 43 with 1:43 left. That would have made it much more difficult for the Patriots to drive for the 41-yard field goal they eventually got out of the drive.
So it wasn't a fumble and was correctly called a complete pass, but if it were a fumble, the Pats would've been screwed? Thanks for the insight, Dan.
 

Kliq

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Sounds like a complete non-story; Brady's arm was moving forward so it wasn't a fumble. It's like saying if James White hadn't broken the goal line it wouldn't have been a touchdown.
 

RetractableRoof

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Wasn't sure where to put this one. Someone smarterer than me will have to tell me wtf Blandino is talking about, or why he's bringing it up

Kevin Seifert NFL Nation
NFL SVP of officiating Dean Blandino noted what could have been a major play late in the second quarter of Super Bowl LI. On this play, the Falcons' Vic Beasley Jr. hits Patriots QB Tom Brady as he throws a pass that was caught by TE Martellus Bennett for a 15-yard gain.
Brady's arm had just started moving forward, making it a legal pass. If it had been ruled a fumble, however, the ball would have been moved back by rule to the spot of the fumble. Inside of two minutes, only the player who fumbled can advance the ball.
So the Patriots would have faced third-and-12 at the 23-yard line instead of having a first-and-10 at the 43 with 1:43 left. That would have made it much more difficult for the Patriots to drive for the 41-yard field goal they eventually got out of the drive.
Sounds like Blandino should stick to how to screw up catch/no catch decisions and not simply posting to hear himself type...
 

Leather

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I mean, if his arm wasn't moving forward, the ball would have traveled 1-2 yards upfield, max, not the 7-8 that it did.

File this one under the "If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle" file.
 

E5 Yaz

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I mean, if his arm wasn't moving forward, the ball would have traveled 1-2 yards upfield, max, not the 7-8 that it did.

File this one under the "If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle" file.
Agree, but why talk about it in the first place?
 

Leather

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No idea. I suppose "Let's discuss some 'What Ifs'!" Could be the Super Bowl coverage equivalent of the Good N Plentys at the bottom of the bowl a week after Halloween.
 

Super Nomario

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I'm sorry, I don't think this is similar enough to be of any help. In that game it's already 2 scores, which creates a huge margin of error, and there's 7 minutes left. The Super Bowl was to the point where they could have bled off all of NE's TOs and had a FG that Bryant hits 90% of the time, and taken the clock to around 3 minutes.
One sketchy clock management situation I can think of is in the divisional round last year against the Chiefs. Pats recovered the onside kick with ~1:15 left and a seven point lead, but KC had all three timeouts. Pats could have run three times and punted deep, burying KC with about a minute left and no TOs, but instead they passed on second down and Brady was lucky that Hali deflected the pass right to Edelman.
 

CFB_Rules

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Gerry Austin speculated that refs are usually looking for a chop block in scrums and when players are engaged. That play happened quickly in the open field, Andrews and Mason hit Jones simultaneously so the officials arent primed to look for a chop block. Think it was a foul though.
In the old days, this play would have been right in the Umpire's wheelhouse to pick up. With the NFL moving the U behind the QB, there's no such luck. Ordinarily the LJ would have the best shot at getting it, but he had to drift 5 yards into the backfield to make a very tight ruling on whether the pass was forwards or backwards (You can see him punch forward, indicating he ruled a forward pass). That takes him out of the play. The back judge is the next most likely, but his key is Hogan the slot receiver and he goes out into the flat on the other side. He possibly could have moved off his key by this point in the play (Hogan isn't threatened) and see the chop in time, but obviously didn't. The field judge is watching Edelman's block all day long and has no responsibility for this.

The NFL knows that there are holes in 7-man coverage, which is why the NFL is adding another official next year (probably...it may be 2018). This play would be right in his/her wheelhouse as they're expecting to line them up 15 or so yards off the line of scrimmage and they are solely looking for blocks in the second level.
 

Stitch01

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In the old days, this play would have been right in the Umpire's wheelhouse to pick up. With the NFL moving the U behind the QB, there's no such luck. Ordinarily the LJ would have the best shot at getting it, but he had to drift 5 yards into the backfield to make a very tight ruling on whether the pass was forwards or backwards (You can see him punch forward, indicating he ruled a forward pass). That takes him out of the play. The back judge is the next most likely, but his key is Hogan the slot receiver and he goes out into the flat on the other side. He possibly could have moved off his key by this point in the play (Hogan isn't threatened) and see the chop in time, but obviously didn't. The field judge is watching Edelman's block all day long and has no responsibility for this.

The NFL knows that there are holes in 7-man coverage, which is why the NFL is adding another official next year (probably...it may be 2018). This play would be right in his/her wheelhouse as they're expecting to line them up 15 or so yards off the line of scrimmage and they are solely looking for blocks in the second level.
Cool insight, thanks.
 

staz

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The cradle of the game.
Steelers had years of unmitigated misery, pre-Noll/Bradshaw. Ted Marchibroda q/backed them for a while. They drafted Johnny Lattner (ND), he ripped up his knee. They cut Unitas. They were the last team to drop the single wing. They had guys like Sid Watson (Northeastern) and George Sulima (BU) on the roster. The Bell family deserves all the credit in the world for sticking with it.

Digression: I began watching NFL in roughly 1947, post Boston Yanks and long before the AFL. First, it was the old Cleveland Browns. Then, the Giants with the insufferable Chris Schenkel in the booth. I'd hung around lots of NYC kids growing up, and it was constant bragging and chest pounding. Chris made it worse. Then, out of nowhere, a bedraggled Steeler team came in and pounded the Giants 63-7, with the late Jim Finks at QB. IIRC, towards the end of that game, Schenkel sounded like he had a peach-pit caught in his larynx. I reveled in NY misery. From that point on, till the AFL and the Pats surfaced, the Steelers were my team. I still provide secondary support for them, except when playing NEP.
This is tremendous. Your perspective on the game must be off the charts.
 

dhappy42

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Wasn't sure where to put this one. Someone smarterer than me will have to tell me wtf Blandino is talking about, or why he's bringing it up

Kevin Seifert NFL Nation
NFL SVP of officiating Dean Blandino noted what could have been a major play late in the second quarter of Super Bowl LI. On this play, the Falcons' Vic Beasley Jr. hits Patriots QB Tom Brady as he throws a pass that was caught by TE Martellus Bennett for a 15-yard gain.
Brady's arm had just started moving forward, making it a legal pass. If it had been ruled a fumble, however, the ball would have been moved back by rule to the spot of the fumble. Inside of two minutes, only the player who fumbled can advance the ball.
So the Patriots would have faced third-and-12 at the 23-yard line instead of having a first-and-10 at the 43 with 1:43 left. That would have made it much more difficult for the Patriots to drive for the 41-yard field goal they eventually got out of the drive.
Is it too paranoid to read this as Blandino keeping a close eye on situations where some in-game ref whispering on "the correct application of the rules" could screw over that Patriots?

Of all the "close calls" in that game, he picked that one (not close at all) to highlight and comment on? Weird.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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I was just watching highlights of the final drive of the game and to me it seems like the refs may have missed a chop block on the James White swing screen to the ATL 15. Looks like Andrews and Mason clearly go high low on an ATL defender. Maybe it's legal if the blockers are downfield? Some rules expert here can probably shed some light.

 
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