The Nation's Tears: Volume II

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joeflah

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Feb 1, 2015
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Was it always this way with dynasties and greatness? I feel like anytime a team or a player is great, a sizable amount of people want to hate them for no good reason. Yet, looking back so many people became fans of dynastic teams like the Niners or Cowboys or Steelers precisely because they were great and people still speak about those teams reverently. Same with individuals - Mayweather, LeBron, Kobe - any time there's a historic talent, people want to shit all over them instead of being grateful for the opportunity to watch greatness. I'm not saying everyone has to go all Vision Quest, but I don't get why people aren't embracing the opportunity to watch teams and athletes that are historic, achievements they can tell their grandkids about.

Maybe it was always this way, or maybe it's the need for 24 hour content driving naysayers whose hot takes are picked up by idiots and contrarians, but it's the freaking Player Haters Ball in sportsland.
When they speak “reverently” of Mayweather is it because they aren’t aware he beat up women out of the ring more often than he beat up men in the ring? Or is it because they’re more in favor of the former than the latter?
 

joeflah

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Feb 1, 2015
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ehh

as a non pats fan i am plob a littie jealous not at the pats at other nfl teams by being so briandead at times like jax has 3 TO and 55 Sec left and they kneel when they couild got a fg

to beat NE u have to outsmart them by playing the sitchion

to me the only thing u can get NE on is shouild had fran jimmy and let brady go after 18 by doing that u wouild had gave BB 6 more legit super bowl shots after the 2018 season now at best its over after 19 or 20

and now u couild be state at being the mid 1980's pitt steelers after brady leaves
No fan of the English language either, eh? How the fuck do you put the letter “i” in the word could over and over again? HOW????
 

SumnerH

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No fan of the English language either, eh? How the fuck do you put the letter “i” in the word could over and over again? HOW????
Leave the moderation to the moderators. They typically know what they're doing.

And they often have information you don't have, such as when a member like j-man has a physical condition like cerebral palsy which makes posting a lot more arduous for him than it is for you.
 

uk_sox_fan

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Montana is definitely one of the three best quarterbacks ever whose last name starts with "M"
Not saying he's not, but whom are you not considering possibly Top 3 when you say Montana 'definitely' is?
  • Dan Marino
  • Warren Moon
  • Peyton Manning
As for other M's he's clearly ahead of the following but it's still impressive how many excellent M QBs there are:

  • Don Meredith
  • Donovan McNabb
  • Steve McNair
  • Earl Morrall
  • Craig Morton
  • Jim McMahon
  • Eli Manning
  • Archie Manning
  • Todd Marinovich (ok, I'll stop now...)
Oh - and he's never played QB as far as I'm aware and he's only 5'7" tall but I wouldn't bet against Lionel Messi...
 

singaporesoxfan

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It’s so rediculous. That guy talks about how rare it is to get so few penalties, and then goes on to say that the patriots have done it multiple times. It’s like, how many stats like that are there? Penalties, comebacks, 50+ pass games, etc. etc.
Not that statistics-based arguments would deter motivated reasoning, but if you wanted to distinguish between a team getting few penalties because of favorable calls (doesn't have to be because refs really want players to win, could just be the standard home field advantage) or because that team is better disciplined, you could proxy for "team discipline" by looking at pre-snap penalties, which have usually less elements of judgement (false starts, encroachment, neutral zone infraction, offsides tend to be more straightforward than, say, holding calls).

Based on the data from NFLPenalties.com, Jacksonville was in the top quartile of teams with pre-snap count penalties, averaging 2.68 such penalties per game. New England was in the bottom quartile, averaging 1.72 such penalties per game.
 

loshjott

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Not saying he's not, but whom are you not considering possibly Top 3 when you say Montana 'definitely' is?
  • Dan Marino
  • Warren Moon
  • Peyton Manning
As for other M's he's clearly ahead of the following but it's still impressive how many excellent M QBs there are:

  • Don Meredith
  • Donovan McNabb
  • Steve McNair
  • Earl Morrall
  • Craig Morton
  • Jim McMahon
  • Eli Manning
  • Archie Manning
  • Todd Marinovich (ok, I'll stop now...)
Oh - and he's never played QB as far as I'm aware and he's only 5'7" tall but I wouldn't bet against Lionel Messi...
Marcus Mariota gets extra credit.
 

kenneycb

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When they speak “reverently” of Mayweather is it because they aren’t aware he beat up women out of the ring more often than he beat up men in the ring? Or is it because they’re more in favor of the former than the latter?
It's almost like people have the cognitive ability to compartmentalize someone being an all-time great in his/her profession while recognizing his/her as an asshole outside of his/her profession.
 

Marciano490

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When they speak “reverently” of Mayweather is it because they aren’t aware he beat up women out of the ring more often than he beat up men in the ring? Or is it because they’re more in favor of the former than the latter?
You misread the post, which is ironic given what you posted next.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Maybe, but that Nick Wright guy is a trainwreck. Anytime I've seen him it's been horrific.
He's a dolt.

Really, the entire argument about "biased refs" can be boiled down to absurdity by showing the penalties. Jags had 6 penalties, but 3 of them were for a false start, an illegal motion, and a delay of game: objective penalties that had nothing to do with the run of play, all from dead-ball situations.

That leaves three more: the personal foul by Church on Gronk, the PI by Abouye on Cooks, and the PI by Ramsey on Cooks. The helmet to helmet seems to be universally agreed to have been a good call, even Marrone said as much heading into halftime. Ramsey himself said after the game that he committed PI on his call. That leaves the PI down the sideline. So....1 questionable call all game?

The Jack fumble recovery...I can't see any way that's NOT down by contact.

Long story short: people are stupid.
 

Ed Hillel

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The Vikings had two penalties yesterday, btw. I haven’t heard a peep about the NFL rigging that game.
 

garzooma

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If we haven't already done so, we should be adding Cris Carter to the whitelist

Wright's comment about "superstar call" did get me thinking:
  1. Why wouldn't star football players get the benefit of close calls the way star basketball or baseball players are known (or thought) to do?
  2. The baseball player analogy made me think about pitchers who pound the strike zone, which prompts umpires to give them close calls. Could the Patriots, by making it a point to avoid penalties, reap a derived benefit of officials expecting them not to make penalties, and so get close calls made their way?
 

RetractableRoof

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Wright's comment about "superstar call" did get me thinking:
  1. Why wouldn't star football players get the benefit of close calls the way star basketball or baseball players are known (or thought) to do?
  2. The baseball player analogy made me think about pitchers who pound the strike zone, which prompts umpires to give them close calls. Could the Patriots, by making it a point to avoid penalties, reap a derived benefit of officials expecting them not to make penalties, and so get close calls made their way?
It would be a subconscious effect by the officials. If they carried that thought consciously, that would BE bias.

Even if this is true, it might also be offset by the heightened scrutiny that the team is under. Officials wouldn't want to be seen as the one who got calls wrong against the Patriots.

Related thought: I'm also a believer that some teams are likely easier to officiate a game for. Less of the coaching staff barking, climbing all over the officials verbally, etc. I wonder if that affects the officials in any way. I recall one of the officials on a video (do your job type video) I watched this past week making pre-game conversation with BB and telling him that the Patriots were one of the best teams on the sideline. I don't know if he meant in terms of verbal hassling or merely staying behind the lines or whatever but he made a point of bringing it up - so they notice and appreciate whatever it is.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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He's a dolt.

Really, the entire argument about "biased refs" can be boiled down to absurdity by showing the penalties. Jags had 6 penalties, but 3 of them were for a false start, an illegal motion, and a delay of game: objective penalties that had nothing to do with the run of play, all from dead-ball situations.

That leaves three more: the personal foul by Church on Gronk, the PI by Abouye on Cooks, and the PI by Ramsey on Cooks. The helmet to helmet seems to be universally agreed to have been a good call, even Marrone said as much heading into halftime. Ramsey himself said after the game that he committed PI on his call. That leaves the PI down the sideline. So....1 questionable call all game?

The Jack fumble recovery...I can't see any way that's NOT down by contact.

Long story short: people are stupid.
Which could be argued (Wilbon mentioned it last night) was not a fumble in the first place. I believe it was, but it was at least questionable, certainly more questionable then the two DPIs.

Those perpetrating these officiating controversy arguments are simply lazy and playing to the base.
 

Harry Hooper

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The Vikings had two penalties yesterday, btw. I haven’t heard a peep about the NFL rigging that game.
And 3 out 4 of the Colts' footballs were under-inflated. What happens wit other teams is immaterial. The Pats are concentrated evil.
 

InstaFace

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Related thought: I'm also a believer that some teams are likely easier to officiate a game for. Less of the coaching staff barking, climbing all over the officials verbally, etc. I wonder if that affects the officials in any way. I recall one of the officials on a video (do your job type video) I watched this past week making pre-game conversation with BB and telling him that the Patriots were one of the best teams on the sideline. I don't know if he meant in terms of verbal hassling or merely staying behind the lines or whatever but he made a point of bringing it up - so they notice and appreciate whatever it is.
Amusingly, it was actually when Belichick was mic'd up for the last game against the Jags, in 2015. The ref said "you guys run the best sideline in the league", which Belichick clearly and genuinely appreciated the ref saying. He meant in terms of staying off the white area so that the line judge can run back and forth unimpeded and do his job.


Just one of those little things about being a disciplined team. Goes part and parcel with how they can have fewer penalties, or moments of confusion.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It would be a subconscious effect by the officials. If they carried that thought consciously, that would BE bias.

Even if this is true, it might also be offset by the heightened scrutiny that the team is under. Officials wouldn't want to be seen as the one who got calls wrong against the Patriots.
Officials are humans. They have subconscious biases, for sure -- I think there is probably something to home field advantage in a very minor sense.

But if you've spent any time talking to highest level officials, you'd really realize how silly it all is. They just don't give a shit. I know that's hard for people to believe, but it's really the only way you make it to this level. The league recognizes that the one thing that could sink it -- more than concussions, more than domestic violence, more than the national anthem -- is perception that things are not fair. To say that NFL security is paranoid about it is an understatement. Can't say much more but I know of a guy who goes through it -- the intrusion on his privacy is staggering. They can (and do) show up at midnight and look at his computer. They go deeply into your private life, under the guise of wanting to know your potential "blackmail" weaknesses, and on and on. Your life is an open book to NFL security.

But, beyond that, they just don't give a shit about who wins. Every official knows that they have kicked a call or two and as a community they have developed pretty sophisticated thoughts about how to process that, how to keep it from happening, how to move on to the next play, and how to compartmentalize it. But in the end, if you could put the officials from Sunday's game on a lie detector and get an absolute honest evaluation of Sunday's game and what they called, I feel pretty comfortable that the reaction to the idea that they were letting anything not on the field affect the call would be one of bemusement and their explanation for the calls would be, "yeah, Jacksonville committed six penalties and New England committed one, so that's what we called."
 

kelpapa

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Amusingly, it was actually when Belichick was mic'd up for the last game against the Jags, in 2015. The ref said "you guys run the best sideline in the league", which Belichick clearly and genuinely appreciated the ref saying. He meant in terms of staying off the white area so that the line judge can run back and forth unimpeded and do his job.


Just one of those little things about being a disciplined team. Goes part and parcel with how they can have fewer penalties, or moments of confusion.
Go to the 3 minute mark of that video. Is that the same TD to Amendola? Fake handoff, then looks left to the receiver split outside, then Amendola in the back of the endzone. For Brady's 400th TD pass.
 

Marciano490

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A friend on Facebook made this claim in a Pats cheat debate. Is this true?

If the patriots had an advantage with the refereeing situation it was because they prepared for it. Ernie Adams watches every minute of game tape on the referees who will be calling a game. He has a statistical derivative formula that analyzes how refs call games, what they call and don’t call consistently and figures out how to maximize outcomes based on a formulaic approach to how they expect the game to be called. It’s preparation. And preparation beats talent in the NFL over 60 minutes more often than it doesn’t
 

kelpapa

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I wouldn't be surprised if that was true, but how the hell do they know what Ernie Adams does? Nobody knows what Ernie does.
 

TheoShmeo

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A friend on Facebook made this claim in a Pats cheat debate. Is this true?
I think that's probably overstated to some degree but the Pats coaches did talk about in Do Your Job 2 how the crew who did the game called holding in the KC playoff game and that the penalty Chris Long drew on the 3rd and 23 play when Sano caught the ball late in SB 51 was not a surprise to them and something they actually planned for.

Either way, I love that opposing fans, and really coaches and players, have that level of concern over the Pats' preparation level and resulting advantage. That is, if opposing coaches and players indeed have that level of concern, etc.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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A friend on Facebook made this claim in a Pats cheat debate. Is this true?
I've heard Belichick in one or two interviews make a comment about referee tendencies -- I think in reference to how a crew had called a prior game. There's nothing that would surprise me that much in terms of how the Patriots prepare, but my bullshit meter is telling me that this isn't true and beyond perhaps having some statistics would be a waste of time spent better.
 

loshjott

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Officials are humans. They have subconscious biases, for sure -- I think there is probably something to home field advantage in a very minor sense.

But if you've spent any time talking to highest level officials, you'd really realize how silly it all is. They just don't give a shit. I know that's hard for people to believe, but it's really the only way you make it to this level. The league recognizes that the one thing that could sink it -- more than concussions, more than domestic violence, more than the national anthem -- is perception that things are not fair. To say that NFL security is paranoid about it is an understatement. Can't say much more but I know of a guy who goes through it -- the intrusion on his privacy is staggering. They can (and do) show up at midnight and look at his computer. They go deeply into your private life, under the guise of wanting to know your potential "blackmail" weaknesses, and on and on. Your life is an open book to NFL security.

But, beyond that, they just don't give a shit about who wins. Every official knows that they have kicked a call or two and as a community they have developed pretty sophisticated thoughts about how to process that, how to keep it from happening, how to move on to the next play, and how to compartmentalize it. But in the end, if you could put the officials from Sunday's game on a lie detector and get an absolute honest evaluation of Sunday's game and what they called, I feel pretty comfortable that the reaction to the idea that they were letting anything not on the field affect the call would be one of bemusement and their explanation for the calls would be, "yeah, Jacksonville committed six penalties and New England committed one, so that's what we called."
Re the bolded. Watch the Butler INT again. It's absolute pandemonium on the field and the refs are calmly walking about resetting the ball at the new LOS, etc. They appear robotic.
 

pappymojo

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The complaints about the Patriots getting fewer penalties reminds me of the fallout from the deflategate stupidity where people were using the low turn-over rate as "proof" that the Patriots balls were under-inflated. It's just heart-breaking in it's stupidity. There are many factors that play a part in whether or not a team wins a game, but only some of those factors are almost exclusively in the control of the players on the field. Turnovers and penalties are two examples of components of a game that have a direct correlation to the probability of victory, and ALL teams actively work to reduce both turn-overs and penalties. A low percentage of either turn-overs or penalties is not an indication of bias or cheating; they are an indication of both discipline and greatness.
 

Omar's Wacky Neighbor

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A friend on Facebook made this claim in a Pats cheat debate. Is this true?
Outside of "derivative", that sounds real familiar from a few years ago. But a lot of teams are credited with analyzing the calls made and not made by ref crews. I guess the point of that post is that the Pats incorporate that data much more actively in their weekly game planning than other teams do.

EDIT: and any time you invoke Ernie's name, you might as well just use the word nefarious. (that's one area in which I'll miss Francessa's hot takes the next two weeks: his laying-it-out-for-the-layman of how absolutely diabolic and cunning Ernie is, stopping just short of saying he was on the grassy knoll that November day. He literally once said something along the lines of " there are no pictures of the guy" or "no one knows what the guy even looks like")
 
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reggiecleveland

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I do this even in high school basketball. I don' who the ref iu s until an hour before the game, but I know how they tend to call things. Some guys call lots of handchecks, some let it go, some protect shooter, some let guys block shots even with contact as longs as they are square, etc. So some nights I tell guys "knock off the handchecks tonight," or "get up be physical this refs lets you play." My point is officials can be a predictable factor in the game, so of course teams scout them, coach to the situations. It is quite possible the Pats are better at this though.
 

Hoya81

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To be fair, I had no idea what Adams looked like before “Do Your Job”.

I’ve always thought that his job was to study stuff on the margins that BB is intrigued by, but doesn’t fall into traditional game planning.
 

shaggydog2000

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Outside of "derivative", that sounds real familiar from a few years ago. But a lot of teams are credited with analyzing the calls made and not made by ref crews. I guess the point of that post is that the Pats incorporate that data much more actively in their weekly game planning than other teams do.

EDIT: and any time you invoke Ernie's name, you might as well just use the word nefarious. (that's one area in which I'll miss Francessa's hot takes the next two weeks: his laying-it-out-for-the-layman of how absolutely diabolic and cunning Ernie is, stopping just short of saying he was on the grassy knoll that November day. He literally once said something along the lines of " there are no pictures of the guy" or "no one knows what the guy even looks like")
Yeah, I don't know how you would take a derivative of "1.8 offensive holding penalties per game". I could easily see the Pats analyzing ref crew tendencies though, and making certain types of penalties a point of focus during the week.
 

nighthob

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For those who listen to 98.5: Carlton in Norwell goes national: (starts at the 10:30 mark)
No one hates the Patriots like New Englanders.

A friend on Facebook made this claim in a Pats cheat debate. Is this true?
Completely absurd, everyone knows that Ernie Adams' real job is emissary to His Infernal Majesty so that Satan can rig the games for the Patriots.
 

slamminsammya

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Sounds like the typical idea of a non math person of how math happens. "Take a derivative with a formulaic approach to produce statistics of optimization". Either a joke or verbal diarrhea.
 

mostman

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For those who listen to 98.5: Carlton in Norwell goes national: (starts at the 10:30 mark)
Ha! Let me list all the plays *not* called against the Patriots, while not bothering to think about plays *not* called against the Jags.

Focus on the plays that were called, because, in general, the officials kept their whistles around their chest. The whole "100 yards against the Jags!" thing is bullshit. A lot of those yards were picked up on two plays, both of which were obvious.

As for the Jack play, its been covered. It was correctly called. If it went the other way, sure we would be apoplectic, but at least then we would have the rules on our side.
 

Al Zarilla

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Go to the 3 minute mark of that video. Is that the same TD to Amendola? Fake handoff, then looks left to the receiver split outside, then Amendola in the back of the endzone. For Brady's 400th TD pass.
Brady's been around so long that he's done everything there is to do at least twice, from the flea flickers, to the statue of liberties, to the direct snaps to Faulk or White, to the double passes...Also, was it Tony Romo that said the Patriots always have a guy running along the end line on passes down near the goalline, as a second or third option in case option one or two isn't there?
 

simplyeric

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It would be a subconscious effect by the officials. If they carried that thought consciously, that would BE bias.
Even if this is true, it might also be offset by the heightened scrutiny that the team is under. Officials wouldn't want to be seen as the one who got calls wrong against the Patriots.

Related thought: I'm also a believer that some teams are likely easier to officiate a game for. Less of the coaching staff barking, climbing all over the officials verbally, etc. I wonder if that affects the officials in any way. I recall one of the officials on a video (do your job type video) I watched this past week making pre-game conversation with BB and telling him that the Patriots were one of the best teams on the sideline. I don't know if he meant in terms of verbal hassling or merely staying behind the lines or whatever but he made a point of bringing it up - so they notice and appreciate whatever it is.
Bias doesn't have to be conscious.

A subconscious favoring (or dis-favoring) of a player would also be bias.

Not saying this is (or isn't) happening in the NFL, just pointing out that the consciousness of it would be neither here nor that, and hot-clown-take guy basically said that it was an unconscious bias.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I would not be surprised in the least if Adams (or someone on the Pats) analyzed referee tendencies and they coached players to do/not do certain things based on their assessment of the crew.

I have no idea if this actually happens, and can't recall a player ever suggesting the above info exists or is used. But it is possible, sure.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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This was just on last year's Do Your Job special, they knew the crew assigned to the SB wouldn't be afraid to call holding, and it was the same crew that worked the KC-PIT playoff game that threw a flag for holding on the crucial play in that game late. So they tried to trigger a holding call by having Long rush from the outside.
 

54thMA

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For those who listen to 98.5: Carlton in Norwell goes national: (starts at the 10:30 mark)
Listening to that turd loose his shit like that made my day; cats are running for cover everywhere in Tampa, good Christ what a whiny rant that was.

The fact that he's ready to drive off a cliff over this makes it extra special; this is the same simpleton who predicted the Bills would win the AFCE and the Patriots would finish second.

Sad to know he's taken his act nationally so the rest of the country is subjected to his noise.
 

drleather2001

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Listening to that turd loose his shit like that made my day; cats are running for cover everywhere in Tampa, good Christ what a whiny rant that was.

The fact that he's ready to drive off a cliff over this makes it extra special; this is the same simpleton who predicted the Bills would win the AFCE and the Patriots would finish second.

Sad to know he's taken his act nationally so the rest of the country is subjected to his noise.
Jesus, man. He's basically an actor that takes an "edgy" position that's just plausible enough to defend credibly but will also get enough blowback that he spurs "heated discussion". He's not serious. Just like CHB. That's not to say he isn't an asshole, I don't know, but don't take him so seriously.
 

54thMA

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Jesus, man. He's basically an actor that takes an "edgy" position that's just plausible enough to defend credibly but will also get enough blowback that he spurs "heated discussion". He's not serious. Just like CHB. That's not to say he isn't an asshole, I don't know, but don't take him so seriously.
He was a regular caller to 98.5 when he lived in Norwell, he was pretty even handed when he started, a Jets fan who did not like the Patriots.I've been subjected to his act for a long time. He's clearly ramped up his act now that he's gone national.

A poor mans Butch from the Cape. I'm sure Carlton writes out a script prior to calling as well.

Nothing to take seriously; this is sports, the toy box of life.

My only point was he's really gone over the edge and if that's just an act and he's not serious, then wow, gee, he got me.
 

Norm Siebern

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Yeah, I don't know how you would take a derivative of "1.8 offensive holding penalties per game". I could easily see the Pats analyzing ref crew tendencies though, and making certain types of penalties a point of focus during the week.
Analysing a crew during the regular season makes sense and I am sure all teams make note of tendencies of crews; and if they didn’t they are stupid.

But in the playoffs, these are “all star teams” of referees, put together as individuals who had great seasons and are rewarded by gaining a playoff game. The result? There is no crew of referees for the playoffs. You can’t analyse a crew of referees and their tendencies for a playoff game because they are literally not a crew. They have never been together before. Which further proves the point we are all making: this myth of the Patriots exercising some Svengali like hold on the NFL is just an excuse for fans of opposing teams to explain away their own teams’ failure.
 

drleather2001

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He was a regular caller to 98.5 when he lived in Norwell, he was pretty even handed when he started, a Jets fan who did not like the Patriots.I've been subjected to his act for a long time. He's clearly ramped up his act now that he's gone national.

A poor mans Butch from the Cape. I'm sure Carlton writes out a script prior to calling as well.

Nothing to take seriously; this is sports, the toy box of life.

My only point was he's really gone over the edge and if that's just an act and he's not serious, then wow, gee, he got me.
AH, sorry. My bad. I thought you were talking about SAS.
 

kelpapa

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Brady's been around so long that he's done everything there is to do at least twice, from the flea flickers, to the statue of liberties, to the direct snaps to Faulk or White, to the double passes...Also, was it Tony Romo that said the Patriots always have a guy running along the end line on passes down near the goalline, as a second or third option in case option one or two isn't there?
Sure, just pointing out that's the third time this play has been run in the last few years on the goalline. That's the play Edelman scored on in the Super Bowl against the Seahawks.
 
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