The Nation's Tears: Volume II

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54thMA

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Who do Pats fans hate the most? Jets, Dolphins, Bills, Steelers, Ravens, Colts, Broncos, Giants is a representative list. None of them won a playoff game this season.
GIANTS
Broncos
Dolphins
Ravens

Jets. Colts and Bills aren't on the list; when fatso coached the Jets, they were third on my list, when Frankeforehead was the QB for the Colts, they were second on my list.

No real hate for the Steelers; 1-4 vs the Patriots in the playoffs, including 0-3 in the AFCCG equals no real hate, laughable is more like it.

But your point still stands.
 

loshjott

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The Pats have been so good for so long they've developed some sort of rivalry with almost every other AFC team. You could add Chargers, Raiders, Jags, and maybe Titans, Texans and Chiefs to my initial list. Other than the Ohio teams, Pats have developed some sort of rivalry with every AFC team. And I'm still waiting for a chance to revenge BB's Browns beating Parcells' Pats in 1994.
 

BuellMiller

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Eh, it's not like that Pats team was loaded either. It took two return TDs to beat that Kordell Stewart-led team. I think if those teams play 10 times, Pats win maybe 2-3 of them, 4 tops. They were big underdogs for a reason. Steelers were better all year, Pats just made more big plays in that game. Of course, who knows how it goes if Brady doesn't get hurt. Bledsoe threw the TD and had a big 3rd down conversion, but otherwise was pretty mediocre.
I think with Bettis still being a bit dinged up coming into the game (was it a groin injury, I think?), I don't think the Steelers would have ever been able to run effectively against the Patriots in those 10 hypothetical matchups, and forcing that Steelers team with Stewart at QB to throw the ball was a huge advantage for the Patriots. And if Brady doesn't get knocked out, he's probably more able to control the clock (he was 12-18 before the injury, while Bledsoe was 10-21, (7-18 in the 2nd half).

And @Anthologos, having lived in Pittsburgh for many years myself, I can confirm that Sheetz are indeed awesome, especially when you're a poor grad student. And if you ever want to watch fireworks, tell someone from Philly that Sheetz is better than Wawa (or visa versa).
 

Stitch01

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Ravens are, and will always be, the worst. Not only are they an easy to hate franchise replete with holier-than-though scumbags, but when the Patriots play the Ravens we get to deal with Raven derangement syndrome where their 3-8* record against BB/Brady Pats is supposed to show some sort of special blueprint for playing the Patriots tougher than relative team strengths would suggest. I hate looking at franchise vs. franchise records over time, but at least the Giants or Broncos in Denver or Miami in Miami have had actual success against the Patriots. These Ravens assholes are 3-8*. When the two teams played last year we had posters wondering how the Pats could contain freaking Breshad Perriman, a St Ozzie megabust who aspires to have Tony Simmons career.

Obviously a very tough opponent and successful franchise from 2008-2012 before they gave out the worst veteran contract in NFL history. But fuck them.

*Real record is 2-8, I refuse to acknowledge that 2012 replacement ref game farce ever happened.
 

dynomite

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Eh I get the Ravens rivalry. And like, screw the Ravens right?

Anyway, the Brady/Belichick Pats have lost 9 playoff games:

2 vs. Giants in the Super Bowl (07, 11)
1 vs. Colts in Indy (06)
3 vs. Broncos in Denver (05, 13, 15)
2 vs. Ravens in Foxboro (09, 12)
1 vs. Jets in Foxboro (10)

So already it’s a limited sample when you’re looking for a “rival” for the Pats, especially given:
- how rarely they play the Giants and their total turnover
- the fact that Peyton has retired (weird to remember he was 3-2 against the Pats in the playoffs)
- how crappy the Jets are.
- the Steelers have never beaten the Pats in the playoffs (lol)

So basically there’s just the Ravens, who have both beaten us and (unlike those other teams) still have the same QB, coach, and GM. Hell, even our wins against them in the playoffs were classics decided in the final minute (11, 14).
 

Kliq

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The Steelers are my least favorite team in football because of their fans. Part of it is that the Steelers have fans in every market in the country. They are like the Cowboys, but with more of a faux-tough guy attitude. Maybe that isn't really logical, but I feel like Steeler fans fancy themselves as rooting for the toughest, most physical team in the league, because dating back to the glory days that is what they are known for. They annoy the crap out of me and that is why it is great to see them consistently get bounced from the playoffs in disappointing fashion.
 

Koufax

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Interesting. I once lived in Buffalo and was a Bills season ticket holder. When the Steelers came to town, thousands of their fans came up for the game. I sat in the stands with them. They were the nicest football fans I have encountered, including Pats fans. Different strokes . . .
 

Captaincoop

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I can't remember actually meeting any Steeler fans in person and not getting along with them. They're superfans, and so much of their region's identity is wrapped up in that team that sure, the collective "Steeler fans" can be annoying. But that's true of literally every franchise that has an active fanbase.

Steeler fans individually generally know their stuff, love football, and are pretty willing to be good natured in person. It's one of the most down-to-earth, friendly cities in America, IMHO.

edit: Now, if you want to talk about Ravens fans...
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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People forget how grating NYJ fans are because theyve been shit for a while. When they went to back to back AFC Championship games, there wasnt a more obnoxious fanbase. Patriots games were their superbowl. Tomlin and the Steelers dont hold a candle to how fixated the NYJ were on the Pats.
 

rodderick

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Mike Francesa tears?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/16/other-quarterbacks-pass-when-theyre-losing-tom-brady-passes-to-win/

TB (and B.B.) wipe the field in these circumstances, most notably Manning and Marino.
The article posits that most QBs throw the ball 50+ times because they are desperate and trailing, and that Brady usually does it as part of a gameplan, but that isn't true in the playoffs. Of the 8 games Brady had 50+ attempts in the postseason, only against Tennessee was that not out of necessity. In the remaining 7 games Brady trailed by two scores at some point in all of them (Oakland in '01, San Diego in '06, Baltimore in '12, Baltimore in '14, Seattle in '14, Denver in '15 and Atlanta in '16). So that's a 5-2 record when trailing with the game on the line, needing to throw the ball on pretty much every down to win the game.
 

grsharky7

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I can't remember actually meeting any Steeler fans in person and not getting along with them. They're superfans, and so much of their region's identity is wrapped up in that team that sure, the collective "Steeler fans" can be annoying. But that's true of literally every franchise that has an active fanbase.

Steeler fans individually generally know their stuff, love football, and are pretty willing to be good natured in person. It's one of the most down-to-earth, friendly cities in America, IMHO.

edit: Now, if you want to talk about Ravens fans...
I've lived in western PA for a long time and I've seen the ebb and flow of Steeler fandom. In the 90's they couldn't get over the hump, they lost a few AFC championship games at home and one Super Bowl to the Cowboys. The Cowboys won three titles in the 90's and more titles overall and the 49ers also had more overall Super Bowls at the end of the decade. They started to get chippy in the early 2000's with the losses to the Pats in 01 and 04. It went from we'll never get back to the top to "screw New England" and "They'll never be on our level!". Bitterness really started to set in and the focus on New England started to become a big thing

Then they won in 05 and 08 which put them back on top of the Super Bowl hierarchy. The Sixburgh stuff became insufferable, and it has been the "Stairway to Seven" ever since. I believe the Pats infatuation has several elements.

1.Head to head in the playoffs: The Pats have beat them on the biggest stage 01,04,16. Two of those Steeler teams were heavily favored and lost at home.

2.Image: They don't view New England as football area, how dare those snobby New England intellectuals/liberals challenge them for football superiority. Pittsburgh is very much still an Iron City drinking, kielbasa and pierogi eating, blue collar area, and they view Boston as a bastion of snobby elitists. The Steelers are always supposed to be the smash mouth team that represents that blue collar toughness. The Pats have been more offense oriented for most of this run and they view them has tricky and underhanded, not willing to hit you in the mouth. Which was not true at all of the early BB Pats teams. The fact that the quiet and intellectual team continues to outsmart them and win is infuriating.

3. Legacy. They've had a great QB for the past 14 seasons and he has been denied a few rings by the Patriots. Ben has never beaten Brady and the Pats when it really counted. In fact Ben has only beaten the Pats three times, and one of those was in 2008 when Brady was out. All of the chatter on talk radio here leading up to the playoffs was how a win over the Pats would really cement Ben's legacy for all time. Throw in the fact that they view Brady as a pretty boy whiner and it makes for a lot of bad feelings.

4. Spygate: They are convinced that they would've won in 01 and 04 had the Pats not been taping signals. They will bring this up constantly if the Pats come up in conversation. Hines Ward and a few former players have been beating that drum for years. It doesn't matter that Cowher has said many times that it didn't matter and not why they lost. The paranoia about the Pats persists to this day, look at Tomlin with the headsets on opening night two years ago.

5. Asterisks: When they won in 2005 and 2008 they didn't have to go through the Pats to do it. That doesn't make those Super Bowls any less legit, however it is fun to bring up in conversation. It gets them worked up every time. It is almost as if the Red Sox had not gone through the Yankees in 04 and won it all. We'd all still be thrilled and it would still be an all time achievement for the franchise, but you know Yankee fans would still be saying how the Red Sox could never beat them when it really mattered.

The fear is real about the Pats reaching six titles. I think if San Francisco or Dallas were to win another Super Bowl and tie them they would be bummed but it wouldn't be that big of a deal. If the Pats tie them then it will be a collective meltdown of epic proportions.
 

Soxy

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1.Head to head in the playoffs: The Pats have beat them on the biggest stage 01,04,16. Two of those Steeler teams were heavily favored and lost at home.
Two of those Steelers teams lost at home but only one was heavily favored. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Patriots were the favorites in 2004. Which is a testament to how good that Patriots team was, to be 3 point road favorites over a 15-1 team that had already beaten them. Some of that was because Ben was a rookie and hadn't fully established himself yet, but that Pats team was loaded.
 

grsharky7

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Two of those Steelers teams lost at home but only one was heavily favored. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Patriots were the favorites in 2004. Which is a testament to how good that Patriots team was, to be 3 point road favorites over a 15-1 team that had already beaten them. Some of that was because Ben was a rookie and hadn't fully established himself yet, but that Pats team was loaded.
Yeah the Pats were favored, however in the minds of their fans they were the supreme favorite in that game. Yeah Ben was a rookie but they had just reeled off as good a regular season as you can have minus going undefeated and had demolished the Pats at the end of October. You can understand the confidence going into that game, but the Patriots came out and put it on them and it was never really a game.
 

BuellMiller

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Yeah the Pats were favored, however in the minds of their fans they were the supreme favorite in that game. Yeah Ben was a rookie but they had just reeled off as good a regular season as you can have minus going undefeated and had demolished the Pats at the end of October. You can understand the confidence going into that game, but the Patriots came out and put it on them and it was never really a game.
Although I think quite a bit of their confidence had dissipated the week before, barely eeking out a win at home against the Jets in OT with a bit of help from Doug Brien and Herm Edwards. Ben was fairly bad, 17-30, 181, 1 TD, 2 INT.
 

reggiecleveland

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The Steelers are my least favorite team in football because of their fans. Part of it is that the Steelers have fans in every market in the country. They are like the Cowboys, but with more of a faux-tough guy attitude
I find this true here in Canada. Steeler stickers tend to go with truck nutz, Steeler hats with imploring 9 years olds to hit more in hockey. I have to admit, Bruins stickers and hats have a similar correlations.

But as for least favorite fans? I will take the tough guy Steeler fans over the many guys I know in Canada that are "Cowboys, Lakers, Yankee, Habs" fans.
 

simplyeric

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I some Pittsburgh fans had this anti-Brady thing about
I find this true here in Canada. Steeler stickers tend to go with truck nutz, Steeler hats with imploring 9 years olds to hit more in hockey. I have to admit, Bruins stickers and hats have a similar correlations.

But as for least favorite fans? I will take the tough guy Steeler fans over the many guys I know in Canada that are "Cowboys, Lakers, Yankee, Habs" fans.
Well yeah...Cowboys, Lakers, and and Yankees fans are the worst of the worst. I'd take a Steelers fan over them.

But, Steelers fans are in the immediate next tier.
 

Kliq

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Cowboys fans don’t really bother me because I wasn’t around for any of the glory days. Most Dallas fans I know are more like Knick fans and always have a depressed outlook on the team.

Anyone that latches onto a team simply because they win a lot is going to be an annoying fan. The worst of the worst are fans who root for the super-successful franchise over their hometown team. Part of the fun in sports is that you didn’t chose your favorite team, you are stuck with them no matter what, just like your family.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Cowboys fans don’t really bother me because I wasn’t around for any of the glory days. Most Dallas fans I know are more like Knick fans and always have a depressed outlook on the team.

Anyone that latches onto a team simply because they win a lot is going to be an annoying fan. The worst of the worst are fans who root for the super-successful franchise over their hometown team. Part of the fun in sports is that you didn’t chose your favorite team, you are stuck with them no matter what, just like your family.
There's a lot of Cowboys and Giants fans in NE, not because they were winning, but because during the doldrums, Pats games weren't broadcast here because of the sellout rules for TV; so we got Cowboys and Giants games on TV. "Hometown" allegiance by default is kind of dead, since now you can get any game anywhere. Older days you were stuck with what was on TV or you could drive too. Now obviously, you can live anywhere and be a fan of a team. While I agree bandwagon fans are annoying, I would begrudge a kid growing up in Pittsburgh being a Pats fan if his dad grew up here and pushed him towards it.
 

DeadlySplitter

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let's see how much of the narrative tomorrow is the penalty disparity. will show who's actually watching the game or not.
 

DJnVa

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let's see how much of the narrative tomorrow is the penalty disparity. will show who's actually watching the game or not.
Whatever. If the Jags had won that Lewis fumble would have been the biggest call/non-call of the game.
 

DJnVa

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NFL Network during highlights: "You know if call is even close, the Patriots will get call". Other player on set "Preach."

The very next highlight is the flea-flicker fumble, and non overturn, immediately showing they're full of shit. Then they spin it by saying if the refs hadn't blow whistle, that the Jags might have run it back for TD.
 

Needlenose's Pole

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Ref celebrates with Patriots players after TD -- 1/21/18, Foxborough, MA

He has a good sense of humor. I mean look at the crowd of Patriots in his face for not throwing a 15 yarder on Jack for his late hit on (and subsequent head slap of) James White after his TD run. Good natured guy.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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NFL Network during highlights: "You know if call is even close, the Patriots will get call". Other player on set "Preach."

The very next highlight is the flea-flicker fumble, and non overturn, immediately showing they're full of shit. Then they spin it by saying if the refs hadn't blow whistle, that the Jags might have run it back for TD.
I mean... They would have.
 

Ralphwiggum

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But he had to have been touched after he had possession, which isn’t until after he’s separated from Lewis.

I don’t think the refs are biased one way or the other, but the Pats were very fortunate in this game to get a bunch of calls. The Jack play was unusual but the Pats were lucky it wasn’t game over right there.

If I were a Pats hater I would be pretty incensed by the officiating in this game. But as a Pats lover I love the taste of the tears.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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But he had to have been touched after he had possession, which isn’t until after he’s separated from Lewis.

I don’t think the refs are biased one way or the other, but the Pats were very fortunate in this game to get a bunch of calls. The Jack play was unusual but the Pats were lucky it wasn’t game over right there.

If I were a Pats hater I would be pretty incensed by the officiating in this game. But as a Pats lover I love the taste of the tears.
I dont think he had possession at all while on top of Lewis. The ball can be transferred without immediate possession.

The ref simply blew his whistle too early. He didn't think it was a fumble.
 

heavyde050

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No. It wasn't even close

Thanks for providing and you are correct. But if we want to play the revisionist history luck game.
Jack should have been thrown out of the game twice before that play even started. I am on mobile so I can’t embed the plays, but he clearly shoved/Lewis in the face well after a play was over and no call. He then tackled a guy way after the play in the end zone.
If the refs did their jobs he may have been ejected.
But what I wrote was crazy and no ref catches everything.
If the refs would have reversed the Lewis fumble, I could see Jax being mad. They got away with a lot more than they got called for.
I mean one of their DBs choked and tackled Hogan before a pass with no call - led to a punt.
 

Bowhemian

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Ref celebrates with Patriots players after TD -- 1/21/18, Foxborough, MA

That pic is so out of context. There was a little skirmish with a Jax player, who walked away quickly. Flemming then was sort of roughing up White, and it looked like the ref thought it was another skirmish with a Jax player.
The ref simply blew his whistle too early. He didn't think it was a fumble.
I didn't think it was a fumble, either. He had possession when his knee was down.
 

kenneycb

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It could have been reversed, I think. But you dont think he could have been gathering position, while the ball was on his stomach or something?
IMO he ripped it directly from Lewis so he would be down by definition when he got possession. I didn’t think it was a fumble but, if it was a fumble, I think he was down.
 

RetractableRoof

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But he had to have been touched after he had possession, which isn’t until after he’s separated from Lewis.

I don’t think the refs are biased one way or the other, but the Pats were very fortunate in this game to get a bunch of calls. The Jack play was unusual but the Pats were lucky it wasn’t game over right there.

If I were a Pats hater I would be pretty incensed by the officiating in this game. But as a Pats lover I love the taste of the tears.
Clearly this isn't a popular opinion in this area. It frustrates me, because obviously the timing of calls (or non-calls) also makes a huge difference.

There were a couple of huge non-calls on early passing plays that benefited the Jaguars. If those calls are made, maybe the Pats are never down the way they were. Maybe those calls and the field position take some of the edge off the aggressiveness of the Jaguar defense. Who knows? There was some serious non-calls all day on both teams (imo) and when that happens it tends to favor the more aggressive team. By all accounts the Jaguars would be described as the more aggressive team. The wrestling suplex on white after he scored his touchdown wasn't whistled, the punches thrown, the taunting after Gronk walked off the field. All of that could have (should have?) been called - and by not doing it - the Jaguars gained a large advantage. A Patriots pass rusher stumbled over a fallen blocker, starts to get up to pursue Bortles and the OL just shoved him in the middle of his back sending him back to the turf. No whistle. So I'll acknowledge that there were a number of missed calls - they were missed on both sides of the ball. But if the ref is going to let them play, which happened - and that approach favors the other team, I'm not going to get too worked up about complaints of the referee.

Finally, knowing what we know about the Patriots playoff/post season record - a referee was chosen that somehow the Patriots had a losing record in front of. What are the odds of that??? That referee should never have been assigned to the Patriots game by the league.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I dont think he had possession at all while on top of Lewis. The ball can be transferred without immediate possession.

The ref simply blew his whistle too early. He didn't think it was a fumble.
It's very clear in the replay that Lewis had his hand on the ball, secured against his body, and the ball was not moving at all when his hip touched. I guess I understand how someone could say that isn't 'full possession' since he subsequently lost it. I also get why (as Blandino said) given the call was fumble why it wasn't overturned (and it also wasn't confirmed, suggesting NY saw it the same way I'm suggesting), but I think the actual right call there was pretty clearly that he had possession and was down by contact.
 
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