The Nation's Tears: Volume II

Status
Not open for further replies.

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
Meh. Not sure if you watched it or just saw the headline, but I really am not sure what you'd expect him to say. He was asked directly if he thought the outcome would have been different had he been healthy and he basically said 'yes, it changed their game plan and our ability to keep match ups one on one for the receivers', which I don't think is really up for dispute. Don't think it really deserves 'lol boo hoo' treatment when the option was saying 'no we still would have lost'.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,848
Hingham, MA
Meh. Not sure if you watched it or just saw the headline, but I really am not sure what you'd expect him to say. He was asked directly if he thought the outcome would have been different had he been healthy and he basically said 'yes, it changed their game plan and our ability to keep match ups one on one for the receivers', which I don't think is really up for dispute. Don't think it really deserves 'lol boo hoo' treatment when the option was saying 'no we still would have lost'.
I watched it, and I hear you. But the bottom line is that it didn't really change the Pats gameplan - those other guys were all still getting 1 on 1 coverage, they just dropped the passes. Coates in particular had one or two I remember. Double teaming Brown was the game plan.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
27,848
Hingham, MA
Well they are right in that paying him $12M a year would have been foolish since they won't be good for another few years anyway
 

NortheasternPJ

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 16, 2004
15,780
So the Pats offered Hightower $10mm per year prior to last season when Hightower was making $7.75 million.

They they sign him for 4 years $43.5 million? I love it. They were down to a hundred thousand on his market initially.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
53,497
San Andreas Fault
This is kind of the ultimate destination for Jetsdom, isn't it? "Please Mommy Ginger, make them stop winning!"
Jets fan guy second from the left saying Pats have the best quarterback of all time..I'm getting used to hearing this more and more from Jets fans (Mike Greenberg, people on Gang Green, etc.), but I don't think it will ever stop surprising me when I hear it.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
24,958
Saskatoon Canada
Despite the logo, the parallels to the revolutionary war are weak. If anything the football Pats are closer to the British Empire, but competently administered.

King BB: Let the tax on tea walk, it has maybe two good years left, plus it is a distraction in the locker room. Also I know you guys like the veteran India, but I am making the rookie America our starter, this kid will grow up to be great. Also remind me in a few years to trade France for that draft pick Louisiana. I expect his contract demands will make them sell low.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,737
Richmond, VA
Despite the logo, the parallels to the revolutionary war are weak. If anything the football Pats are closer to the British Empire, but competently administered.

King BB: Let the tax on tea walk, it has maybe two good years left, plus it is a distraction in the locker room. Also I know you guys like the veteran India, but I am making the rookie America our starter, this kid will grow up to be great. Also remind me in a few years to trade France for that draft pick Louisiana. I expect his contract demands will make them sell low.
Don't you remember the 70's, 80's, and 90's?

The current Patriots are like mid-20th Century USA...Tom Brady is General Motors, or something. Even the UN and World Bank can't hold us down...for now.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
24,958
Saskatoon Canada
Also my point is the football Pats have really unprecedented success. It takes a "What if the British Empire kept America" level of dominance to create a historical parallel.

70s USA? Not so much. Handed upset loss with unmotivated road effort in Vietnam, Eastern Block steroids dominated Olympics, ending with 444 days out of the playoffs. Lots of Pundits thought USSR was building a dynasty, cetainly retrospect shows that to be wrong, but not at the time. Plus Disco.

80s closer, but Japan made a play for team of the decade, Soviets made some bad moves, hired a "players coach" though while popular with the media lost the team. "Tear down that wall" was a Roberts steal second level moment though.

90s opened with biggest rival getting an SMU level death penalty, but lockeroom politics and bickering over blowjobs makes 90s USA look like 70s Bruins, remembered more for lost chance to dominate than real dominance. Plus mullets.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
13,737
Richmond, VA
Also my point is the football Pats have really unprecedented success. It takes a "What if the British Empire kept America" level of dominance to create a historical parallel.

70s USA? Not so much. Handed upset loss with unmotivated road effort in Vietnam, Eastern Block steroids dominated Olympics, ending with 444 days out of the playoffs. Lots of Pundits thought USSR was building a dynasty, cetainly retrospect shows that to be wrong, but not at the time. Plus Disco.

80s closer, but Japan made a play for team of the decade, Soviets made some bad moves, hired a "players coach" though while popular with the media lost the team. "Tear down that wall" was a Roberts steal second level moment though.

90s opened with biggest rival getting an SMU level death penalty, but lockeroom politics and bickering over blowjobs makes 90s USA look like 70s Bruins, remembered more for lost chance to dominate than real dominance. Plus mullets.
Oh, I meant 70's/80's Patriots, not USA.

The current Patriots run is like USA in the, let's say 50's? We were exploiting market inefficiencies all over the place. The middle class (Amendola?) was doing great because the upper class wasn't milking everyone for every cent (TB12). We were slightly prurient and had limited diets (also TB12).
We had the occasional miss (Korea, that playoff loss to Jets) and some messed up stuff (the lead up to Cuba, and Aaron Hernandez).
And we were making hay with things other nations weren't (the automobile, dual TE sets...).
And, um, USA! USA!

I need another beer.
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

writes the Semi-Fin
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2001
3,269
South Carolina via Dorchestah
Atlanta paper reporting that two months later Matt Ryan is "still numb."

Here's a odd point--when asked why he didn't audible to a running play during the fateful 3-and-out, Ryam implied that he can't change plays at the line:

"It just doesn’t operate like that in football,” Ryan said. “You have a personnel grouping that’s out on the field that could change or limit your number of plays. So, if you want to change out of something and into something, you might not have the right guys out there.”
Does that seem right? Atlanta runs an offense where the qb can't audible?
 

Spelunker

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
7,710
Atlanta paper reporting that two months later Matt Ryan is "still numb."

Here's a odd point--when asked why he didn't audible to a running play during the fateful 3-and-out, Ryam implied that he can't change plays at the line:



Does that seem right? Atlanta runs an offense where the qb can't audible?
Is he saying that he can't audible in general, or is he saying that the package on the field that play didn't really allow for an audibled run? Like, say, if they were in a 5 wide or something.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
36,718
Hartford, CT
Is he saying that he can't audible in general, or is he saying that the package on the field that play didn't really allow for an audibled run? Like, say, if they were in a 5 wide or something.
Each offensive system (and coaching staffs, for that matter) vary in terms of how much freedom they give the QB at the line of scrimmage, but the idea he didn't have at least a run/pass option out of any set that had a RB on the field is absurd. Obviously your personnel limits the kind of audible you could call at the line there (you've only got so much time at the line to play around and Tyler Gabriel isn't playing TE or FB...), but if Ryan really isn't armed with a run/pass choice on a given play is absurd.

Here's a relevant article from the AJC, published last summer: http://www.ajc.com/sports/football/shanahan-ryan-has-audible-option-percent-run-plays/1x4yBBiFmWTLE4VNwWkCSN/

"Falcons offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan discussed the team’s audible system on Wednesday.

Under the former offensive coordinators Mike Mularkey and Dirk Koetter, Falcons quarterback Matt Ryan had wide-ranging audible authority.

He has an audible option – to check a run into a pass or vice versa at the line of scrimmage – on maybe 50 percent of the plays, according to Shanahan.

(...)"

If they were lining up on a third and 1 (the fumble possession) without the option to switch to a run, well, I guess that's what they do in the Shanahan offense.

I thik it's harder to criticize Ryan for not audibling to runs on the Falcons' final possession when the play call was a pass. Absent a favorable look (or, perhaps, obviously unfavorable look given the pass play played), QBs just aren't going to audible from a pass to a run at the LOS in that spot if the OC wants to throw the ball.

Dan Quinn is to blame on that last sequence. He needs to get the hell on the headset and tell Boy Wonder he's grounding the ball regardless of what his multi-colored laminate sheet tells him is a great idea.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
31,234
AZ
I think that Ryan was just trying to be polite. The question, if I'm understanding the context, was basically why didn't Ryan take it upon himself to overrule the coaching decision to throw a pass on the ground that they were already in field goal range.

I'm sure Ryan has discretion to take what he sees into account at the line of scrimmage and change things on the fly if needed. But the problem here was with the play call, and it's hard to imagine any player in the last few minutes of a super bowl thinking, "fuck my coaches I think run is smarter."
 

Soxy

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2008
5,952
The passage quoted by Bernie makes it sound like the personnel grouping Atlanta had on the field limited their potential audibles. Let's take a look at the personnel to see if that holds water.

On the 2nd-and-11 play, the Trey Flowers sack, they had a 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB grouping. The RB was Freeman. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have some run audibles in their arsenal with that package out there.

On 3rd-and-23, the holding call, they had the same basic grouping but different personnel. The lone running back was FB Patrick DiMarco, who over five seasons has a career rushing total of one carry for zero yards. I think it's safe to say that run audibles probably weren't an option here. Which makes it a puzzling personnel grouping considering Atlanta was on the 35 yard line, which would make it a 52 yard FG. During the season Matt Bryant was 6-8 on FGs of 50+ yards and 10-12 on kicks of 45+ yards. A short run makes it a perfectly reasonable (though certainly not easy) FG attempt.

The next quoted passage from Ryan, which comes right after what Bernie quoted, makes it sound like he doesn't audible much, in general:

“Talk to 99 percent of the guys and they will tell you that what comes in is what we are going to run,” Ryan said. “As a player, it’s your job to make the plays work. I’ve always believed that whatever the play call is, it’s your responsibility to go out there and make it work. We didn’t get it done on those couple of plays.”
That's a noticeable contrast to Brady, whom Belichick has praised for his famous ability to get the Patriots out of potential bad plays and into plays that stand a better chance of being successful. Obviously holding any QB to Brady's standard is a tall bar to clear, but if you want to beat the best....
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

All Hail King Boron
Dope
May 20, 2003
32,008
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Hey now. Some of us went there.

Watch yourself, I got the ban hammer ready.







j/k Joke the hell away.

EDIT: I believe after the SB it was widely reported that Shanahan's offensive system isn't built for audibles at all. Like, they never did them.
 

speedracer

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,592
That's a noticeable contrast to Brady, whom Belichick has praised for his famous ability to get the Patriots out of potential bad plays and into plays that stand a better chance of being successful. Obviously holding any QB to Brady's standard is a tall bar to clear, but if you want to beat the best....
It's been mentioned before, but it's worth bringing up again -- the other Patriots on the field have this power and responsibility, at least in some situations. In the Do Your Job film, Danny Amendola calls off the double pass against Kansas City. Brady then audibles to a quick slant to Brandon LaFell 1v1 on the other side of the field, and LaFell breaks it for a score.
 

InstaFace

MDLzera
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
15,012
Pittsburgh, PA
Matt Ryan has been clockwork-orange'ing himself:

"I watched it the day after. I watched it two days after. And then I watched it three days after," Ryan told 680 The Fan radio in Atlanta during a Monday interview prior to his charity golf tournament. "For me, it was one of those things, I think; you kind of want to be able to deal with it appropriately. Maybe that's different for everybody. Some people bury it away. ... For me it was, 'All right, let's watch.'
 

RFDA2000

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 16, 2005
363
That's actually the correct response from a psychological standpoint from what I've read. You should re-watch painful moments/losses until the negative response wears off.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
39,235
That's actually the correct response from a psychological standpoint from what I've read. You should re-watch painful moments/losses until the negative response wears off.
Nope. Still not watching the Tyree catch.
 

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
6,141
That's actually the correct response from a psychological standpoint from what I've read. You should re-watch painful moments/losses until the negative response wears off.
I still deny that the 1986 World Series ever occurred.
 

RFDA2000

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 16, 2005
363
Well, unless you guys are suiting up (or coaching) for the 1987 Sox or the 2008 Pats, I think I can let it slide.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
53,497
San Andreas Fault
Nope. Still not watching the Tyree catch.
I actually watched it in my recording of SB LI, although not live on February 5. It probably took both 04 and 07 to erase 1986 for me, although I still to this day get thoughts of what if Gedman caught that dervish of a slider by Stanley. As for Buckner's error, it was too late by then.
 

mwonow

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 4, 2005
6,141
I actually watched it in my recording of SB LI, although not live on February 5. It probably took both 04 and 07 to erase 1986 for me, although I still to this day get thoughts of what if Gedman caught that dervish of a slider by Stanley. As for Buckner's error, it was too late by then.
IT ... NEVER ... HAPPENED
 

54thMA

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2012
8,309
Westwood MA
That's actually the correct response from a psychological standpoint from what I've read. You should re-watch painful moments/losses until the negative response wears off.
I'll take your word for it.

Two things I've seen only once, ie, live; the Buckner error and the Tyree catch.

In both cases, once was more than enough.
 

Pandemonium67

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
4,947
Lesterland
Took me a good long while to watch Boone's dinger off Wakefield. I didn't even see it live -- muted the TV as soon as the ball left the bat, glanced a moment later during the celebration to make sure it was over, and headed out for a late, cold walk.

Several years later, I couldn't care less. The Boone disaster just made 2004 a tad sweeter. The Idiots changed everything.
 

54thMA

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2012
8,309
Westwood MA
Took me a good long while to watch Boone's dinger off Wakefield. I didn't even see it live -- muted the TV as soon as the ball left the bat, glanced a moment later during the celebration to make sure it was over, and headed out for a late, cold walk.

Several years later, I couldn't care less. The Boone disaster just made 2004 a tad sweeter. The Idiots changed everything.
Funny you mentioned that one; I was on the phone with my uncle from Arizona as we both watched that game while talking back and forth, as soon as I heard the crack of the bat, I shut the TV off, then I told him I had to go.

He called me the next day all upset over leaving Pedro in; that was the last time I talked to him, he died in December, I flew out to Arizona and did his eulogy, he never got to see them win the 2004 World Series.

Other than my Dad passing away this past February, my Uncle Peters death hit me the hardest.

At least pops got to see the Patriots win the greatest game in Super Bowl history, I called him after they won that game, I'll always cherish that conversation..................................
 

djbayko

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
16,191
Los Angeles, CA
Took me a good long while to watch Boone's dinger off Wakefield. I didn't even see it live -- muted the TV as soon as the ball left the bat, glanced a moment later during the celebration to make sure it was over, and headed out for a late, cold walk.

Several years later, I couldn't care less. The Boone disaster just made 2004 a tad sweeter. The Idiots changed everything.
The pain from that HR has been drowned out by what came after, but I still don't care to watch it. I still have the video of that swing ingrained in my head from that night. Of course, I probably saw about a dozen replays in the immediate aftermath as I just stood there completely despondent.
 

Dick Drago

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 28, 2002
1,259
Took me a good long while to watch Boone's dinger off Wakefield. I didn't even see it live -- muted the TV as soon as the ball left the bat, glanced a moment later during the celebration to make sure it was over, and headed out for a late, cold walk.

Several years later, I couldn't care less. The Boone disaster just made 2004 a tad sweeter. The Idiots changed everything.

When the ball left the bat I shut off the TV, and went on a one month news blackout. I slowly returned to Sosh to commiserate, but I've still never seen him cross the plate.
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
2,279
I don't set out to watch Tyree or Buckner, but they come up ofter enough in packages during games that I've seen them both a lot. How do people avoid them?
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

writes the Semi-Fin
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2001
3,269
South Carolina via Dorchestah
I am a bad person, so I love reading Patriots hate.

After the Pats pistol-whipped the Steelers, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette sports columnist Paul Zeise posted his Super Bowl preview: "The Falcons will save us from more Patriots arrogance."

Lap up these tears, boys:

There is just no shame in Foxborough, Mass. — they do whatever it takes to win...Those of us who don’t drink the Patriots Kool-Aid know the truth, but unfortunately the fans of that crooked organization don’t want to accept it. Thus, it’s imperative that the Falcons win Sunday.
If the Patriots win, Belichick and Brady will become the first coach/quarterback tandem to win five Super Bowls. That’s one more than Noll/Bradshaw and two more than Walsh/Montana (who won a fourth with George Seifert), though it should be pointed out that neither of those duos ever needed a tuck rule or deflated footballs to keep their Super Bowl hopes alive, nor illegal videotapes to win a Super Bowl.
That’s why the final score will be Falcons 38, Patriots 28, and all of humanity will be spared the nauseating love-fest of Belichick and Brady. Well, at least for one more year. I’d pick a wider margin of victory, but I had to factor in all the Xerox copies of Kyle Shanahan’s playbook the Patriots surely (allegedly) have in their possession...
Zeise did not post a column about the Super Bowl outcome.
 

nattysez

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2010
5,651
Did Ron "Blinded by the Lombardis" Borges seriously not write a post-Super Bowl column until his excretion about BB not showing up for that NFL breakfast? Seems like there's a pretty sizable cap in columns here.

Not that we didn't already know he was a complete fraud, but wow.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.