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CFB_Rules

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McDermott may or may not have had gripes, but what was clear to me was that he was close on tilt during significant portions of the game. He was spending too much time complaining and not enough time trying to figure out "well, ok, now what do we do"? He was in a one score game and seemed unable to get over fairly minor calls that did not change the ultimate situation and which were all surmountable.

Bill isn't perfect on this either. He'll get after the refs, but you always get the sense that it's part theater and always there is a purpose. I really can't remember too many occasions where he lost his cool with the refs unless he was trying to work them to make sure that something he perceived as incorrect didn't happen again.

The only times I can seem to remember him really losing his shit is where the refs have actually hindered something that he was trying to do. Like he had seen an advantage and refs blew it for him. He hates that.

I can remember a few cases where he's been really giving it to the refs and then the play clock starts and he switches back into coach mode immediately.

If there's one thing that defines Belichick it's that he is the ultimate master of situational football. Bad calls go into the computer and he figures out what needs to happen next and that's that. If there is no situational advantage to whining he's on to Cincinnati. Other than that venting can make you feel good, there is really no situational advantage to whining and it just distracts you from doing your job. McDermott was anti-situational last night.

You get the feeling that when Bill gets on the refs they seem to know that he's probably correct. It was interesting last night when he lost his shit about the initial reset to the 25 second clock on the injury on the last drive, that it took a bit of time for the side judge (or whichever ref that was) to assure him that they would fix it. That was a case of making sure they got it right and while I think it's very unlikely Vinovich didn't know the rule there, Belichick was going to make sure that the Bills didn't get an unearned 4th timeout with a play clock error.
The NFL officials I've talked to kind of think he is a pain in the ass. 31 coaches in the league will let the officials make penalty decisions for the team. Guess which one won't. As they see it, there's no point in asking a coach whether they want 1st and 20 or 2nd and 1, the choice is obvious.
 

djbayko

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The NFL officials I've talked to kind of think he is a pain in the ass. 31 coaches in the league will let the officials make penalty decisions for the team. Guess which one won't. As they see it, there's no point in asking a coach whether they want 1st and 20 or 2nd and 1, the choice is obvious.
I don't know much about how the mechanics of that works. But my suspicion is that he does this because he's been screwed before. Like, your 1st/20 vs. 2nd/1 example might be obvious. But what other situations might some refs (and possibly many coaches) find "obvious" whereas he is thinking outside the box in specific game situations? These are probably mostly edge cases, but that's where Bill butters his bread.
 

chilidawg

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The NFL officials I've talked to kind of think he is a pain in the ass. 31 coaches in the league will let the officials make penalty decisions for the team. Guess which one won't. As they see it, there's no point in asking a coach whether they want 1st and 20 or 2nd and 1, the choice is obvious.
I'm more than okay with the coach of my team being a pita if it makes for a better outcome.
 

DJnVa

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In real time, and using my horrible lip reading, I thought that McDermott was looking for a Delay of Game penalty, saying "That was the exact same thing"- the time out got called at/around 0 on the play clock.
The way they officiate that call is so weird. The official watches the clock, if it hits zero he then tries to find the ball. If it's in play, they let it go, even if the snap came after clock hit zero. So, that means there are going to be slight differences.

How can the NFL not simply have a buzzer on one of the officials? It buzzes when play clock hits zero.
 
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Over Guapo Grande

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The way they officiate that call is so weird. The official watches the clock, if it hits zero he then tries to find the ball. If it's in play, they let it go, even if the snap game after clock hit zero. So, that means there are going to be slight differences.

How can the NFL not simply have a buzzer on one of the officials? It buzzes when play clock hits zero.
The NBA seems to have it more or less OK with the shot clock. So it should be easy enough, I'd think. Maybe time for another bake sale
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I don't know much about how the mechanics of that works. But my suspicion is that he does this because he's been screwed before. Like, your 1st/20 vs. 2nd/1 example might be obvious. But what other situations might some refs (and possibly many coaches) find "obvious" whereas he is thinking outside the box in specific game situations? These are probably mostly edge cases, but that's where Bill butters his bread.
I have definitely seen refs look over at the sideline and make the decline sign in cases where they seem to assume it is the easy call where I think it is not and there might be a strange situational reason to do the unexpected.

I have no doubt Bill has a few specific scenarios in mind that he has thought through where he would decline a penalty that one would assume he would take. Here is a specific one. Offense trying to run out the clock. Second and short. Defense commits a neutral zone infraction. Obviously you take the first down right?

This happened in the Steelers Ravens game and the ref immediately called the penalty and announced “result of the play is a first down.” It did not look like he consulted Tomlin. This is not at all obvious to me. In fact, I would have declined.

I would have guessed there might be about a zillion reasons why refs could think Bill is a handful and a problem and an asshole. The fact that he actually would prefer that the refs let him do his job is on the list is extremely disappointing to hear. Why would they give a shit if he prefers second and 2 to first and 20 on defense? Hard to find a bigger defender than me of refs on this forum but hearing an inside account that this of all things annoys them makes it much harder to respond to those who think they can act too precious for their own good.

I don’t think this a homer response either. If I heard that refs were annoyed at Harbaugh or McVay for having the shocking temerity to want to be consulted about whether to accept a penalty I would be equally disappointed.
 
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Valek123

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FWIW at the time I think Pats lined up (some heavy run formation? with a halfback and a fullback maybe??), and they let Mac start his count while he was reading the Buffalo's D adjustments. Then, Pat's called timeout just before a snap, or play clock ran out--
__My thought at the time was "Is McDermott pissed that the Pat's got a free look at his defensive adjustment to an unusual O-scheme?? Is there something illegal about using a timeout for that purpose? Is he just posturing???"
He kept repeating that was an illegal formation and you let them snap the ball before the timeout. Curious of the alignment on the all 22 couldn’t get a good screen shot.
 

CFB_Rules

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I would have guessed there might be about a zillion reasons why refs could think Bill is a handful and a problem and an asshole. The fact that he actually would prefer that the refs let him do his job is on the list is extremely disappointing to hear. Why would they give a shit if he prefers second and 2 to first and 20 on defense? Hard to find a bigger defender than me of refs on this forum but hearing an inside account that this of all things annoys them makes it much harder to respond to those who think they can act too precious for their own good.
It's not about the fact that he wants to make the decision. It's annoying because it takes time, which in turn slows down penalty enforcement and gets the networks and NFL on their ass. These things are rigidly timed.
 

snowmanny

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CFB can correct me if I’m wrong but it always looked as if the Ref would make an assumption on the obvious decisions and check with the Coach on the trickier ones. About once or twice a year I would see the ref announce or start to announce whether a penalty was going to be declined or not and then realize the Coach wanted it the other way. It’s not that they are making the decision for the Coach, they are presuming the obvious decision and the coach can correct them. At least that’s how it has always looked for me.

ED: obviously a team on defense might accept a holding call after a 2nd and 10 incomplete pass against Chicago but not against Kansas City
 

CFB_Rules

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CFB can correct me if I’m wrong but it always looked as if the Ref would make an assumption on the obvious decisions and check with the Coach on the trickier ones. About once or twice a year I would see the ref announce or start to announce whether a penalty was going to be declined or not and then realize the Coach wanted it the other way. It’s not that they are making the decision for the Coach, they are presuming the obvious decision and the coach can correct them. At least that’s how it has always looked for me.
Yes this is the standard practice.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It's not about the fact that he wants to make the decision. It's annoying because it takes time, which in turn slows down penalty enforcement and gets the networks and NFL on their ass. These things are rigidly timed.
Seems like that's a reason to be mad at the league, not a coach who is just trying to coach.
 

wiffleballhero

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I've read this discussion surprised that any coach would let the refs just default to making a decision on penalties with any penalty where there is not a loss of down.

It is an imperfect analogy, but downs seem a bit like outs in baseball: don't give them away for free. And on defense, when you get to move the other team 1/3 of the way closer to punting, it often seems like a pretty good idea to do so, even if it is at the cost of declining the five yards.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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But they aren't preventing him from coaching. As has been said, the coach can overrule the decision by the ref so they always have final say.
This is not the point I was making, nor the point I was responding to. CFB said that NFL officials that he speaks to say they view Belichick as a pain in the ass because he wants to be consulted before they announce penalties. I was saying that seems a bizarre reason to be angry at a coach. I can think of a zillion reasons why refs might regard a coach as a pain in the ass, but the fact that a coach would prefer not to have to correct the refs and instead would like the chance first seems . . . I dunno, fragile?

So, the standard is that the refs will guess and let themselves be corrected and Bill would prefer just to be asked, and this is a problem for NFL refs? What are we talking about here? 8 penalties where the white hat has to look at the sideline to get a thumbs up or thumbs down? I would think it takes longer to correct one call. Heck, it takes longer for the refs to get together on the sideline to consult on one catch/no-catch decision.
 

PedroKsBambino

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But they aren't preventing him from coaching. As has been said, the coach can overrule the decision by the ref so they always have final say.
I'd guess that Belichick has two interests: first, ensuring the refs get the choice right---and I know they are very good at this, but I actually think there's some reason to believe he knows the rules as well as anyone, and better on rare occasions than a ref. Some of the reporting of the eligible/ineligible receiver stuff against the Ravens suggested that he felt the need to share the formation with the refs pre-game, which in part is just insurance but in part I believe indicates doubt at whether they'd get it right in the moment (because, as we all know, under current rules he was inarguably correct). Whatever other concerns i have with calls and reviews from an application of judgement perspective, I do believe the refs do an amazing job on "what rule applies here" overall. And, even so, there are a small number of times a year they do get it wrong and I'd guess BB wants to be sure he is never negatively impacted by one of those few.

Second, there are timing implications for substitutions and for the other team making choices about playcalls, etc. that he may want to control/manage. Whether or not that fits the league's guidance on keeping things moving I don't know, but I am confident BB doesn't care whatsoever about that if he perceives even a small benefit on timing substitutions or putting a tiny bit more pressure on the other team given his read of things. Saying, as a default, the refs will guess may be expedient but to DDB's point that is simply not what the NFL rules say about the process
 

lexrageorge

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I do recall the NFL Life series on Belichick from the 2009 season. They had miked up a pre-game discussion with the officials; seems like they have a pretty good relationship as they were chatting and laughing.

Maybe the officials don't like it that they have to consult with Bill, but seems more like a weakness of the other 31 coaches rather than something to be upset at Bill about.
 

BigJimEd

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This is not the point I was making, nor the point I was responding to. CFB said that NFL officials that he speaks to say they view Belichick as a pain in the ass because he wants to be consulted before they announce penalties. I was saying that seems a bizarre reason to be angry at a coach. I can think of a zillion reasons why refs might regard a coach as a pain in the ass, but the fact that a coach would prefer not to have to correct the refs and instead would like the chance first seems . . . I dunno, fragile?

So, the standard is that the refs will guess and let themselves be corrected and Bill would prefer just to be asked, and this is a problem for NFL refs? What are we talking about here? 8 penalties where the white hat has to look at the sideline to get a thumbs up or thumbs down? I would think it takes longer to correct one call. Heck, it takes longer for the refs to get together on the sideline to consult on one catch/no-catch decision.
Yes, misunderstood your post. I agree there is no reason for a ref to be annoyed or upset. That is just petty and arrogant but from what I understand that is not all that unusual for NFL refs.

As for the timing, I'd guess it makes little difference in overall time either way.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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That is just petty and arrogant but from what I understand that is not all that unusual for NFL refs.
Yeah, I had actually thought they were better in general than the other sports but I don't even know why I thought that. I guess that's why I was disappointed with what CFB reported. Maybe though I'm just being a homer because his friends happened to criticize our coach. I can think of reasons why people might not like Belichick. But I wouldn't have guessed this one.
 

Mystic Merlin

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He apparently makes their highly scrutinized jobs incrementally harder and, to boot, given his knowledge and stature I bet it is intimidating/draining when he gets in your ear to challenge a rule enforcement or game mechanic.

I’m not at all shocked that CFP knows officials who don’t like dealing with him. I wouldn’t.
 

riboflav

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The NFL officials I've talked to kind of think he is a pain in the ass. 31 coaches in the league will let the officials make penalty decisions for the team. Guess which one won't. As they see it, there's no point in asking a coach whether they want 1st and 20 or 2nd and 1, the choice is obvious.
I thought this whole time you were talking about the Bills coach and not Bill.
 

Captaincoop

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He apparently makes their highly scrutinized jobs incrementally harder and, to boot, given his knowledge and stature I bet it is intimidating/draining when he gets in your ear to challenge a rule enforcement or game mechanic.

I’m not at all shocked that CFP knows officials who don’t like dealing with him. I wouldn’t.
This is also coming from a referee's perspective. They're thinking entirely of their own path of least resistance. Of course it's a pain in the ass to them that they have to take an extra step before announcing every penalty, over a 2% chance it makes a difference. As a fan, or as a player, or as an owner or GM evaluating a coach, I'm fine with my coach being that pain in the ass.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Same here... He wasn't?
I assumed it was Bill. If there's a coach in the league that wants something done a bit differently on a highly situational play, I assume it's Bill Belichick. But if CFB was talking about McDermott, I still have the same reaction.
 

Ralphwiggum

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@CFB_Rules can clarify. I thought his post (#201 above) was in response to McDermott griping about the refs, but the post he's responding to mentions both McD and BB. Now that I read it again I think he's talking about BB.
 

CFB_Rules

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Clarifying I meant Belichick. And I don't mean to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is, this is just guys bitching. You can tell that they respect him. But nobody wants to run all the way back to the sideline to explain that they have a holding call on the offense when the offense gained 30 yards. Everyone knows that penalty is getting accepted. That being said, they are far more annoyed by the NFL coaches who are incapable of making a decision either way when presented with choices.

As far as Belichick yelling at them, that deference goes for ANY coach. NFL officials know that if a NFL-level coach is screaming at you about something you screwed up....more often than not they are probably right.
 

McBride11

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Clarifying I meant Belichick. And I don't mean to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is, this is just guys bitching. You can tell that they respect him. But nobody wants to run all the way back to the sideline to explain that they have a holding call on the offense when the offense gained 30 yards. Everyone knows that penalty is getting accepted. That being said, they are far more annoyed by the NFL coaches who are incapable of making a decision either way when presented with choices.

As far as Belichick yelling at them, that deference goes for ANY coach. NFL officials know that if a NFL-level coach is screaming at you about something you screwed up....more often than not they are probably right.
Even Mike McCarthy??
 

FL4WL3SS

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So now people are going to pretend they knew all along that Mac was a sure thing? And the Patriots got the NFL version of a frozen envelope.

LOL. Boo hoo
Mac absolutely is not a sure thing. He's a smart QB with limitations that got drafted into a good situation. Is there anyone here that thinks if Mac got drafted by the Bears or Jags he'd be any good? Let's not pretend that Fields or Trevor wouldn't be succeeding on this team.

It's up to Mac where he takes it from here, great start, but he's still far from a sure thing. Enjoy the ride.
 

djbayko

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Mac absolutely is not a sure thing. He's a smart QB with limitations that got drafted into a good situation. Is there anyone here that thinks if Mac got drafted by the Bears or Jags he'd be any good? Let's not pretend that Fields or Trevor wouldn't be succeeding on this team.

It's up to Mac where he takes it from here, great start, but he's still far from a sure thing. Enjoy the ride.
Of course. I didn't mean to imply that he was, but I see how that was unclear. But that just further underlines my point that the NFL conspiracy is silly.
 

snowmanny

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Mac absolutely is not a sure thing. He's a smart QB with limitations that got drafted into a good situation. Is there anyone here that thinks if Mac got drafted by the Bears or Jags he'd be any good? Let's not pretend that Fields or Trevor wouldn't be succeeding on this team.

It's up to Mac where he takes it from here, great start, but he's still far from a sure thing. Enjoy the ride.
He’s not a QB who is going to win you the game himself. But he’s a competent and legitimate NFL quarterback making negligible money for several years, which is very very valuable. I have no particular confidence I’d ever want to see the Pats paying him $35Million a year but time will tell.
 

Jimbodandy

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He’s not a QB who is going to win you the game himself. But he’s a competent and legitimate NFL quarterback making negligible money for several years, which is very very valuable. I have no particular confidence I’d ever want to see the Pats paying him $35Million a year but time will tell.
If there is any merit to the gripe, it's that the guy most skilled at and ready to implement an NFL offense and read NFL defenses fell to the team with the best coach and staff and who coincidentally just rounded up four FA skill positions to fill out the offense.

No, if Lance, Fields, or even Lawrence fell to the Pats, they probably wouldn't be as productive in year one. Over the course of the rookie contract, who knows. Maybe year two Lawrence is already ahead of Mac, due to his superior physical gifts. Maybe Lance or Fields passes where Mac already is before their rookie deals expire. We'll never know now, of course.

Even worse, Fields will probably sputter in the offensive graveyard of Chicago, and Lawrence's situation isn't much better in that joke org. Both will be handicapped by their crappy teams, and Mac will likely still be surrounded by top shelf coaching and institutional continuity. And haters will call the Pats lucky, while the Pats are simply being good at the things that they're good at.
 

snowmanny

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It is true that many people said he was the most NFL-ready of the top 5, hence why a relatively complete offensive-system team like SF might be in on him. I agree with Jimbod and am unconvinced that that any other of the four rookie QBs would likely have the Pats here.
 

Jimbodandy

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It is true that many people said he was the most NFL-ready of the top 5, hence why a relatively complete offensive-system team like SF might be in on him. I agree with Jimbod and am unconvinced that that any other of the four rookie QBs would likely have the Pats here.
Yeah if anyone should be kicking themselves, it's SF. He would have done well there too. The Bears? My grandkids will be posting some day about how the Bears have never had a good quarterback.