Ok name themAnyone.
Seriously, give me any cheap vet who was available last spring.
edit: seriously take a look, backup qbs are so bad and cost so much. That’s why bb uses mid round rookies as much as possible
Ok name themAnyone.
Seriously, give me any cheap vet who was available last spring.
I don’t remember who was available. I’m sure there was at least one. Are you saying there wasn’t a single backup QB available?Ok name them
Whoever they brought in they would have brought in to be *Mac's back up*, and whoever that is wouldn't have made any difference.I don’t remember who was available. I’m sure there was at least one. Are you saying there wasn’t a single backup QB available?
No I’m asking you to explain what kind of player you think the pats should have brought in. There are basically two ways to get a functional backup: pay 4-8 million bucks a year for a colt mccoy or case keenum (who by the way suck) or draft a guy and hope he works out (which they did with zappe).I don’t remember who was available. I’m sure there was at least one. Are you saying there wasn’t a single backup QB available?
Sure give me McCoy or Keenum. Neither is good and yet they’re better than Hoyer. Bill was comfortable with Hoyer, which was the theme of this off-season.No I’m asking you to explain what kind of player you think the pats should have brought in. There are basically two ways to get a functional backup: pay 4-8 million bucks a year for a colt mccoy or case keenum (who by the way suck) or draft a guy and hope he works out (which they did with zappe).
Ok great. Tell me where you got the extra four million in cap space.Sure give me McCoy or Keenum. Neither is good and yet they’re better than Hoyer. Bill was comfortable with Hoyer, which was the theme of this off-season.
How much did Hoyer make this year?Ok great. Tell me where you got the extra four million in cap space.
Like 1.8 million. One of the lowest backup numbers in the league because everyone knows he’s not very good. That’s the point -saying I want a good player not a bad player is pretty pointless if you don’t factor in costHow much did Hoyer make this year?
1.2M with a 1.76M cap hit. The proverbial "you get what you pay for."How much did Hoyer make this year?
Hoyer's cap hit of $1.8M this season is a rounding error.How much did Hoyer make this year?
So we’d need to spring $1.5-ish million more to not have the worst backup in the league? Seems reasonable.Like 1.8 million. One of the lowest backup numbers in the league because everyone knows he’s not very good. That’s the point -saying I want a good player not a bad player is pretty pointless if you don’t factor in cost
Well run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.Ok great. Tell me where you got the extra four million in cap space.
Are we done with those contracts after this year?Well run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.
Not sure I do agree with this; lots of good teams don’t spend much money on the backup qb. The pats plan for twenty years has been to use a cheap rookie as the primary backup and every now and then they give hoyer a tiny bitWell run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.
The Pats are probably investing less in the QB position than any other team.Like 1.8 million. One of the lowest backup numbers in the league because everyone knows he’s not very good. That’s the point -saying I want a good player not a bad player is pretty pointless if you don’t factor in cost
Henry is playing about his typical production, and while overpaid for what he brings, it's not egregious for competent veteran starting caliber tight end (most TE's are awful). And his contract is very cuttable next season.Well run teams shouldn’t have to look underneath the couch cushions to fill such an important position. Henry, Jonnu, and Agholor combine for $38M cap hit this year. Belichick’s terrible FA decisions have completely hamstrung this team in the short term.
Comparing the plan at backup QB for when they had the GOAT vs. a young, unproven Mac seems kind of irrelevant. The whole dynamic has changed and the way we’ve always have done it may need to be re-evaluated. Ultimately, I don’t really care either way but if you can’t find a few extra million to make sure you’re good at the most important position in sports, you’re doing it wrong. My issues are more with the cap management of this team vs. the specific backup QB decision. Zappe ultimately gave this team exactly what we could have hoped for from an Andy Dalton type signing but that was pretty unexpected. Belichick, of all people, knows the value of a good backup QB. He lost a SB to one.Not sure I do agree with this; lots of good teams don’t spend much money on the backup qb. The pats plan for twenty years has been to use a cheap rookie as the primary backup and every now and then they give hoyer a tiny bit
obv agree that the smith and aguolor contracts are bad. Every team has some bad contracts but those are especially unimpressive
Huh? We’re talking about 2022 cap space. Agholor and Jonnu have completely clogged our cap this season so I don’t agree that Jonnu’s is the only bad contract. Agholor’s clearly sucked too. He has the 5th highest cap hit of all WRs or something like that. Clearly, we all agree that Judon was a great signing, best since Gilmore. Henry was also fine. Agholor and Jonnu were abject disasters that have materially impacted other areas. I’m happy as hell that we’re done with Agholor after a few more games. He’s absolute trash.Henry is playing about his typical production, and while overpaid for what he brings, it's not egregious for competent veteran starting caliber tight end (most TE's are awful). And his contract is very cuttable next season.
Judon was an excellent FA signing. Bourne for whatever reason is in the doghouse this season, but he's not occupying that much space.
Agholor is awful but also gone after this season. Jonnu Smith's contract is the only one that is truly bad.
These are all the guys who signed for less guaranteed money than Hoyer last offseason and are probably better than him:Ok name them
edit: seriously take a look, backup qbs are so bad and cost so much. That’s why bb uses mid round rookies as much as possible
They invested the 15th pick in the draft and another 4th rounder to boot. Signing a shitty backup for 7 million would not have been a good solution. They’ve invested plenty.The Pats are probably investing less in the QB position than any other team.
He was still terrible in the second half, as well. Even the one big play to a wide open WR was a broken neck Peyton wobbler.I was on the "start Mac at all costs" train until tonight. Mac was much more poised in the second half, but his behavior in the first half was atrocious and his play even worse. I'm still not sure it makes sense to start anyone else, but I can begin to see an argument for it.
I do agree they have invested draft capital, but as noted upthread, it doesn't take $7M to get a better QB than Hoyer, it doesn't even take more money at all. $7M is Geno Smith if he hits every single incentive ($3.5M base), legitimately excellent backups/spot starters like Tyrod Taylor ($5.5M) and Jacoby Brissett (4.65M) got less than that. Foles and Dalton got around $3M.They invested the 15th pick in the draft and another 4th rounder to boot. Signing a shitty backup for 7 million would not have been a good solution. They’ve invested plenty.
I get it, I just feel like once you draft Zappe, it makes sense to play the long term potential game over your limited ceiling spot starters. Those guys make more sense on teams where there is an established QB in place. Zappe did well as the backup anyway.I do agree they have invested draft capital, but as noted upthread, it doesn't take $7M to get a better QB than Hoyer, it doesn't even take more money at all. $7M is Geno Smith if he hits every single incentive ($3.5M base), legitimately excellent backups/spot starters like Tyrod Taylor ($5.5M) and Jacoby Brissett (4.65M) got less than that. Foles and Dalton got around $3M.
We didn't end up with Hoyer because we couldn't afford someone who would be better, we ended up with Hoyer because that's who Bill picked, for better or worse. I think most would feel that Mullens or Allen would give you a lot more backup upside for the same price, and that it might be worth it to spend $1M more for Foles.
Zappe only played because Hoyer got hurt.I get it, I just feel like once you draft Zappe, it makes sense to play the long term potential game over your limited ceiling spot starters. Those guys make more sense on teams where there is an established QB in place. Zappe did well as the backup anyway.
True, though he continued to play after Hoyer got better, so it’s entirely possible he was getting the call had Hoyer been terrible.Zappe only played because Hoyer got hurt.
You still haven’t come up with a solution for how you would have gotten the mystery player who would make this team betterZappe only played because Hoyer got hurt.
To bring this full circle, I said I was pissed that Bill brought back Hoyer because it was part of a pattern this off-season where Bill defaulted to guys he was comfortable with. The roster and staff is deficient in part because of that approach.
We got different meaning out of his comments. He specifically mentioned that he was happy with the process which I took to mean staff. That they needed more consistency. Said it was too late to go to wishbone or something like that menaing they weren't going to completely revamp the whole offense in December.A couple of weeks ago he gave indications that he’d seen enough and that his conclusion was that it wasn’t working, but that it was too late in the season to really change things.
Maybe a 4th rounder. A 3rd if we swap picks. I think most teams see him as a backup at this point.What do we think we could get for Mac in trade?
One thing I think BB keeps in mind is that nothing is more devastating to a franchise than a QB controversy. He learned that in CLE and quickly released Kosar because he knew playing Vinny with Kosar still on the sidelines would cause distractions and dissent even if Vinny was playing better.You’re right SJH that this week’s performance can’t be described as anything but horrid, and you might be right that Mac is permanently broken. I’m not sure BB agrees with that though. We shall see.
I'm as pro mac as anyone on the forum but I wonder if you could even get that for him. The problem is that he's going to be seen as petulant, kind of a bret favre without the arm talent. I'm sure every NFL organization will have some sympathy for is frustrations with Matty P, but Mac handled it really poorly (you can't tell your offensive coordinator to fuck off when you're a guy who is going to be at best competing for a starting spot.Maybe a 4th rounder. A 3rd if we swap picks. I think most teams see him as a backup at this point.
Pay him? We're not talking about a cap-crippling signing. We keep bringing Jamie Collins back for goodness sake, I'm sure we could finagle things to have a barely competent backup QB in the fold.You still haven’t come up with a solution for how you would have gotten the mystery player who would make this team better
edit: the team has a million problems on offense. Taking Brad hoyer who knows the system instead of a more expernsive colt mccoy is not in the top twenty
Collin's salary is 278k. The cap is a real constraint on what a team can do.Pay him? We're not talking about a cap-crippling signing. We keep bringing Jamie Collins back for goodness sake, I'm sure we could finagle things to have a barely competent backup QB in the fold.
Do we know which genius called a time out as he was throwing a touchdown pass? I'd have no beef with him yelling at that guy.Yesterday was the first time Mac's antics and whining bothered me. I thought on the first and goal at the 2 sequence especially his little hissy fits got the offense even more antsy and likely directly contributed to a penalty. I have no issue with passion and even outward displays of frustration, but I rather he save those for the sidelines and preferably for when he has actually accomplished something in this league. If you're part of the issue, just shut up.
I agree. His coaching and OL play has been bad, for sure. But I just don’t think he has enough intangibles to make up for his completely pedestrian arm talent, and worse than pedestrian athleticism. And I’m also starting to really question his poise and maturity. I sense most don’t agree with this, but I’d like see them give the last 3 starts to Zappe. Not because I think they’ll catch lightening in a bottle and go on playoff run. But I’d to see what has, with extended playing time and practice reps, and if he can part of the plan for the position next year. Because I no longer think Mac should be.Against one of the worst defenses in the entire league, in Game 14 of the season, with a full week to prepare and no travel, Mac went 13 for 31 for 112 yards.
That's indescribably awful. That's not because of coaching, or OL play, or poor WR play, although those things didn't help. That level of performance is on Mac, and it's not NFL level play.
I don't think next year is his make or break year. This year was. And he's broken.
They need to move on from him. He can't do the job.
Bill said postgame that he called it.Do we know which genius called a time out as he was throwing a touchdown pass? I'd have no beef with him yelling at that guy.
edit: I didn't watch/read much post-game, so I don't know who it was