The Michael McCorkle "Mac" Jones Thread

NortheasternPJ

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Where Mac ranks in the NFL at present...

Completions: #5 (174)
Attempts: #6 (247)
Comp%: #4 (70.4%)
Yards: #9 (1,774)
Yds/Att: #19 (7.2)
Touchdowns: #20 (9)
Rating: #20 (92.8)

So he's not a top tier QB at this point. But he's far ahead of all the other rookies, and on the whole, he seems to be a middle-of-the-pack NFL starting QB. Which is pretty amazing for a first-year player.
The fact that they lost Trent Brown about 3 plays into the season, the offensive line fell apart until this week, he was getting crushed and he’s got anywhere near those numbers is amazing. Many other rookies would have completely crumbled mentally. I get he’s got great coaching but he was getting manhandled and still getting better every week.
 

DJnVa

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I love that in this thread we somewhat devalue Mac's numbers because he's got "great coaching" at the same time there's a "Has BB lost his fastball thread?" with 350 replies in a week.
 

NortheasternPJ

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I love that in this thread we somewhat devalue Mac's numbers because he's got "great coaching" at the same time there's a "Has BB lost his fastball thread?" with 350 replies in a week.
Don’t forget that they don’t go for it on 4th down because they don’t trust Mac on short throws.
 

BusRaker

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Where Mac ranks in the NFL at present...

Completions: #5 (174)
Attempts: #6 (247)
Comp%: #4 (70.4%)
Yards: #9 (1,774)
Yds/Att: #19 (7.2)
Touchdowns: #20 (9)
Rating: #20 (92.8)

So he's not a top tier QB at this point. But he's far ahead of all the other rookies, and on the whole, he seems to be a middle-of-the-pack NFL starting QB. Which is pretty amazing for a first-year player.
To be fair to Mac, we've run it in more than the average team in the red zone. Two or three more touchdown throws move him comfortably to the top half. The rating formula sucks in that regard
 

luckiestman

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I love that in this thread we somewhat devalue Mac's numbers because he's got "great coaching" at the same time there's a "Has BB lost his fastball thread?" with 350 replies in a week.
I don’t devalue them. Also, this is what I said about your coach elsewhere.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/10-17-cowboys-at-patriots-gotta-have-it-again.34827/post-4683714


“I guess I shouldn’t be but I am still shocked to see people criticizing BB’s coaching on this forum. Bill the GM sure, that guy causes problems for the head coach, but the coach??? Do you even see how smart your fucking players play? You better quit watching ball once he retires cause watching someone else might give you a heart attack.”
 

Kliq

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So far, we have the 11th ranked scoring offense in the NFL. Last year the Pats were 27th. So that is a big improvement and I think a lot of that has to go to Jones for being significantly better at moving the ball and scoring touchdowns than Newton was; even though Newton had the big advantage of being a tremendous runner around the goal line. They rank 19th in passing TDs and 4th in rushing TDs, so you have to look at the kind of production they have gotten out of the interior O-Line, as well as the backs who have successfully rammed it home when called upon.

Henry has been a disappointment so far relative to his total production, but the last few games he has given off the impression he is the kind of big red-zone threat they have lacked really since Gronk retired.
 

rodderick

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I love that in this thread we somewhat devalue Mac's numbers because he's got "great coaching" at the same time there's a "Has BB lost his fastball thread?" with 350 replies in a week.
To be fair, most of the criticism of BB in that thread pertained to in game decision making and overall aggressiveness, not his day to day coaching (and even the most critical voices were in agreement that at worst he was still a top tier NFL HC).
 

rodderick

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To be fair to Mac, we've run it in more than the average team in the red zone. Two or three more touchdown throws move him comfortably to the top half. The rating formula sucks in that regard
Passer rating overvalues TDs and INTs and doesn't account for sacks, but ANY/A has Mac 23rd, EPA/Play has him 20th and by QBR he's 18th. For reference, Justin Herbert last year was 15th by ANY/A, 13th by QBR and 18th by EPA/Play, and that was considered a historic rookie season. Mac has given you competent QB play as a rookie, which is extremely hard to do.
 

BusRaker

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Passer rating overvalues TDs and INTs and doesn't account for sacks, but ANY/A has Mac 23rd, EPA/Play has him 20th and by QBR he's 18th. For reference, Justin Herbert last year was 15th by ANY/A, 13th by QBR and 18th by EPA/Play, and that was considered a historic rookie season. Mac has given you competent QB play as a rookie, which is extremely hard to do.
He's trending upward as well like I imagine 90% of rookie starters do so it's not hard to imagine him finishing around 12-15. Maybe that's my hometown glasses but it will be fun to watch
 

richgedman'sghost

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What have the 49ers done to deserve a reputation as a competent, non-dysfunctional organization?
Well compared to Jacksonville Chicago and the Jets an awful lot. San Francisco has appeared in 2 Super Bowls 4 NFC Championship games etc. Compared to the NFL at large, you might have a point but the poster was just referring to the threw other franchises in particular. Plus as another poster stated, Shanahan has improved Mullens, Grappolo etc even if you don't like his in game coaching or overall coaching.
 

DourDoerr

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Mac's first down run was nice to see as well. Not that one wants him running much, but every now and then he should take the easy yards if they're going to give them to him. That said, he needs to work on his slide as he later went head first on another run and I still have nightmares of a slide he took early in the season (pre-season?) that looked like an ad for a leg brace.
 

Super Nomario

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Well compared to Jacksonville Chicago and the Jets an awful lot. San Francisco has appeared in 2 Super Bowls 4 NFC Championship games etc. Compared to the NFL at large, you might have a point but the poster was just referring to the threw other franchises in particular. Plus as another poster stated, Shanahan has improved Mullens, Grappolo etc even if you don't like his in game coaching or overall coaching.
Most of that success was three head coaches ago and I don't know how many quarterbacks ago and has nothing to do with anything. They did make the Super Bowl in the one winning season Shanahan has had as head coach, true.
 

rodderick

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Most of that success was three head coaches ago and I don't know how many quarterbacks ago and has nothing to do with anything. They did make the Super Bowl in the one winning season Shanahan has had as head coach, true.
Yeah, Shanahan for some reason never gets criticized even though he's won as many games as Matt Nagy in one more season as HC. The decision to pass on Tom Brady to keep Garoppolo by itself should put him on the hot seat.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, Shanahan for some reason never gets criticized even though he's won as many games as Matt Nagy in one more season as HC. The decision to pass on Tom Brady to keep Garoppolo by itself should put him on the hot seat.
I think it's because he's a good coordinator and he's had to deal with injuries at the skill positions, particularly QB and RB. I don't think Nagy is a good comp, since he lucked into one good season, but has shown 0 ability as a coordinator or coach, he's Adam Gase in the midwest.
 

rodderick

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I think it's because he's a good coordinator and he's had to deal with injuries at the skill positions, particularly QB and RB. I don't think Nagy is a good comp, since he lucked into one good season, but has shown 0 ability as a coordinator or coach, he's Adam Gase in the midwest.
Yup, he's as inept as they come. And he still has a better winning percentage than the guy everyone has up there as a top 5 HC without giving much thought.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yup, he's as inept as they come. And he still has a better winning percentage than the guy everyone has up there as a top 5 HC without giving much thought.
Does anyone really put Shanahan as a top 5 HC though? I think he's seen as a QB guru because of his success, but not as a particularly good HC
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I cant decide if Mac is going to be really good, or if Cams Newtons throwing was so atrocious, were completely lapping up mediocrity.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think there was a perception that Mac was maxed out, or close to it, on what he could get from his skill set. As in, "the stronger arm rookies will get better as their ability to read defenses and make decisions improves, but Mac is already doing those things and his arm won't miraculously improve." That's clearly not the case. I think what that missed is that just because Mac is better than the other rookies in those areas doesn't mean 1) he doesn't still have plenty of room for improvement in them and 2) they aren't guaranteed to reach his current or future former level.
Through the first seven weeks of the season, Jones is 16th out of 33 quarterbacks in expected points added+completion percentage over expected composite. According to CPOE, Mac is the seventh-most accurate quarterback in the league through Week 7 (also look at where all the other rookies are in the chart).

Jones is Pro Football Focus’s 12th-rated quarterback sandwiched between Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen. He’s already a top-ten QB in clean pockets (90.8, ninth), which is a stable metric year-to-year since it’s the most common condition for a quarterback to throw a pass. And he has fewer turnover-worthy plays (8) than Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Joe Burrow.

The Patriots’ rookie is also as-advertised in his college evaluation as a processor, getting the football out quickly and decisively, with an average time to throw that ranks seventh among starting QBs (2.55s).

For the average air yards folks, Jones is 23rd out of 33 QBs (7.7 yards). But right in the ballpark is Mahomes again (7.7), Dak Prescott (7.6), and Justin Herbert (7.4), bringing into question the validity of the metric altogether (does a high aDOT = good QB? Not really).
 
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rodderick

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I think there was a perception that Mac was maxed out, or close to it, on what he could get from his skill set. As in, "the stronger arm rookies will get better as their ability to read defenses and make decisions improves, but Mac is already doing those things and his arm won't miraculously improve." That's clearly not the case. I think what that missed is that just because Mac is better than the other rookies in those areas doesn't mean 1) he doesn't still have plenty of room for improvement in them and 2) they aren't guaranteed to reach his current or former level.
My thing with Mac is Joe Burrow. Now, I think Burrow just plays more aggressive in general and has better movement in the pocket and ability to make plays off script, but they have very similar physical tools. If Burrow can play at a top 10 QB level already while showing some signs he could potentially ascend past that, so can Mac. At least he has the tools to do it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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My thing with Mac is Joe Burrow. Now, I think Burrow just plays more aggressive in general and has better movement in the pocket and ability to make plays off script, but they have very similar physical tools. If Burrow can play at a top 10 QB level already while showing some signs he could potentially ascend past that, so can Mac. At least he has the tools to do it.
Burrow has taken a big step forward in year 2, in all ways but throwing INTs. We'll see him vs the Pats in a couple of weeks. (Edit: or not).
 

rodderick

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Burrow has taken a big step forward in year 2, in all ways but throwing INTs. We'll see him vs the Pats in a couple of weeks.
The Pats don't play the Bengals this year, you're probably confusing them with Cleveland. But yeah, he's been better, even though the traits were all there last year (hard to hit many deep balls and be aggressive with a bad OL and meh WRs). I think he's a different style of player than Mac, but physically they're very similar.
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Pats don't play the Bengals this year, you're probably confusing them with Cleveland. But yeah, he's been better, even though the traits were all there last year (hard to hit many deep balls and be aggressive with a bad OL and meh WRs). I think he's a different style of player than Mac, but physically they're very similar.
Those C--- B--- teams are all the ame anyway.
 

tims4wins

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It’s not as if Brady was heralded as being physically gifted, but he got in better and better shape as his career went along. He also continuously improved his mechanics. Combine the two and you get more “arm strength”. I see no reason why Mac’s “arm strength “ won’t improve too.
 

Jimbodandy

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It’s not as if Brady was heralded as being physically gifted, but he got in better and better shape as his career went along. He also continuously improved his mechanics. Combine the two and you get more “arm strength”. I see no reason why Mac’s “arm strength “ won’t improve too.
His physique and mechanics will undoubtedly improve, barring some catastrophe. He'll never have the "see it, throw dart" arm that some other guys have, but you don't NEED to have that.
 

joe dokes

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I rarely watch this stuff, but where Lazar says:

In this play, the Jets are in a quarters structure. The Pats flood the underneath zone at the top of the screen with a curl-flat combination from Kendrick Bourne and running back Brandon Bolden. The underneath linebacker stays in the curl window, so Mac throws the flat. Knowing that the Jets’ linebacker is coming from the middle of the field, Jones throws a back-shoulder pass to Bolden, allowing him to spin away from the oncoming hit and get the first down.


I see a QB who didn't set his feet and therefore threw the ball behind Bolden.
 

Super Nomario

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I rarely watch this stuff, but where Lazar says:



I see a QB who didn't set his feet and therefore threw the ball behind Bolden.
If he throws it to the front shoulder, he's leading Bolden into harm's way. It's possible you're right, but I'm inclined to give Mac the benefit of the doubt here and agree with Lazar's interpretation.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If he throws it to the front shoulder, he's leading Bolden into harm's way. It's possible you're right, but I'm inclined to give Mac the benefit of the doubt here and agree with Lazar's interpretation.
The was one play early in the game where Wilson threw one of his receivers into harm's way.
 

SMU_Sox

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The was one play early in the game where Wilson threw one of his receivers into harm's way.
I can rememberMatt Waldman’s video reviewing him and it felt like every other throw was a hospital ball. Obviously some of that is Waldman’s bias (he created the chain of throws and the video and he thought Wilson was a super risky prospect).
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The early returns on Mac are fairly encouraging but we are only 7 games into his career and while he has performed better than the other rookie QB’s, is it worth noting that he’s only beaten teams that have started rookie QB’s? I think the next stretch of games will tell us a lot more. The next four-five games should be pretty competitive and a true test. Excited to see what happens!
 

Silverdude2167

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The early returns on Mac are fairly encouraging but we are only 7 games into his career and while he has performed better than the other rookie QB’s, is it worth noting that he’s only beaten teams that have started rookie QB’s? I think the next stretch of games will tell us a lot more. The next four-five games should be pretty competitive and a true test. Excited to see what happens!
Why is that worth noting and also it makes no sense.

You are downgrading Mac because he played well enough to win against Tampa and Dallas but lost?
 

Eddie Jurak

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The early returns on Mac are fairly encouraging but we are only 7 games into his career and while he has performed better than the other rookie QB’s, is it worth noting that he’s only beaten teams that have started rookie QB’s? I think the next stretch of games will tell us a lot more. The next four-five games should be pretty competitive and a true test. Excited to see what happens!
His defensive skills need some work, I guess? Another way to put this is that the Jets suck, but even there he has shown game to game progression.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The early returns on Mac are fairly encouraging but we are only 7 games into his career and while he has performed better than the other rookie QB’s, is it worth noting that he’s only beaten teams that have started rookie QB’s? I think the next stretch of games will tell us a lot more. The next four-five games should be pretty competitive and a true test. Excited to see what happens!
I think if you worded this differently - hes only beaten bad teams - it would garner more discussion. I still think it's unfair, as he wasnt in the top 5 reasons for losing to the Cowboys or Tampa (and those two teams are top 5 teams in the league right now).
 

Eddie Jurak

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Bedard was not positive in his review of Mac's game against the Jets.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/10/27/Jets-was-not-a-coming-out-party-for-Mac-Jones-or-the-Patriots-bedard-breakdown

His argument: Mac made a bunch of negative plays in the first half but the Jets efense (no d) made the Pats look good.

Example: Mac threw a screen pass to Jonnu, who turned it into a 28 yard gain. Well executived play by the Pats, including Jonnu selling the block before slipping out to catch the screen. BUT, the Jets were atrocious. As the play developed, 2 of their defenders were turned around, running away from line of scrimmage (I guess to get to their zones?). Jonnu had already caught the ball and started upfield before either of these defenders had even turned back towards the play. It looks unreal - Jonnu starting to run down the field while 2 Jets defenders are literally running down the field ahead of him.
 

BaseballJones

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On most big plays an offense makes the defense somehow makes a mistake. A blown coverage, a missed tackle, etc.
 

tims4wins

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Bedard was not positive in his review of Mac's game against the Jets.

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/10/27/Jets-was-not-a-coming-out-party-for-Mac-Jones-or-the-Patriots-bedard-breakdown

His argument: Mac made a bunch of negative plays in the first half but the Jets efense (no d) made the Pats look good.

Example: Mac threw a screen pass to Jonnu, who turned it into a 28 yard gain. Well executived play by the Pats, including Jonnu selling the block before slipping out to catch the screen. BUT, the Jets were atrocious. As the play developed, 2 of their defenders were turned around, running away from line of scrimmage (I guess to get to their zones?). Jonnu had already caught the ball and started upfield before either of these defenders had even turned back towards the play. It looks unreal - Jonnu starting to run down the field while 2 Jets defenders are literally running down the field ahead of him.
I don't have BSJ so I can't read the article, and Bedard has been pretty high on Mac so I think it's fair to make this criticism, but that's a weird example to pick out, because it's not an example of Mac making a negative play that the Jets turned into a positive. Did he give examples of plays where it should have been a turnover or whatever and the Jets screwed it up? You can't fault Mac for throwing a screen pass that went for more yardage than it should have due to bad D. Josh called the play, Mac executed it.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I don't have BSJ so I can't read the article, and Bedard has been pretty high on Mac so I think it's fair to make this criticism, but that's a weird example to pick out, because it's not an example of Mac making a negative play that the Jets turned into a positive. Did he give examples of plays where it should have been a turnover or whatever and the Jets screwed it up? You can't fault Mac for throwing a screen pass that went for more yardage than it should have due to bad D. Josh called the play, Mac executed it.
I should have been more clear. He wasn't calling that play a negative play by Mac. He was calling it a negative play by the Jets D. Here's a more clear version of his argument:

1. Most of the big plays by the Pats offense were more the result of putrid defense than brilliant offense. The screen to Jonnu was a classic example of that, but there were several others. (He points out one notable exception that was all Pats' execution: Jones' 46 yard bomb to Bourne.)
2. Jones made a bunch of negative plays in the first half. They didn't hurt the Pats very much because the Jets D was so bad.